String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*

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2010-06-21
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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Puppet Master » String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
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By Ranoutofspace 2022-06-21 05:57:32  
Veydal1 said: »
gregchiro2013 said: »
Im couple years late on this discussion lol - I multi box and Use Pup tank in all dynam D, there are endless SC you can do (Rng, SCH, Cor) as my other jobs. Pup tank there will never die, and I use OD for Yag boss under 50%.

Anyone have suggestions on PUP tanking in Dynamis? Does this include Wave 3? Curious how the automaton is going to hold hate against DDs. Sometimes have enough trouble as it is with a RUN or PLD.

Is it just a matter of pulling on the master with enmity + gear and dumping enmity to the automaton?

For PUP tanking Wave 3, it essentially comes down to 2 Fire Maneuvers and 1 Light Maneuver for trying to hold hate on a single mob (due to no simple AOE hate spells), or 3 Light Maneuvers if you want to throw it at both sides of the circles to super tank everything while your DD pick off mobs one-by-one.

If your DD are buffed, there is no reasonable way for a PUP to hold off physical DD. Hybrid (RNG/SAM) might be different on the one mob the automaton is engaged on, but with no AOE hate, it's not going to be too effective.

It is cool in that you can essentially throw it onto a mob and it'll stay alive pretty much indefinitely in case of a wipe, e.g. wave 2 or 3 boss.

It'll never replace a PLD or RUN though due to no AOE hate moves, but it's pretty neat for holding a ton of mobs indefinitely.
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By destroyoptimus 2022-06-21 06:12:59  
For DynaD tanking, I dont use enmity+ gear. I use standard brawler tank setup (taeon). One of the reasons that a puppet can tank against COR and RNG (and all the others, if people pay attention and buff appropriately and use certain weaponskills) is that magical weaponskills do not gain enmity the same way a physical weaponskill does. This means RNG and COR can do near cap damage and gain very little enmity until they close skillchains.

For wave three tanking, I generally set the puppet on the HQ target on a half of the halo, it literally sits there and beats on it alone. And then I take someone else and pull an NQ target. If you are low man, you should hopefully not be feeding enough tp to the NQ to have it endlessly spam skillchains. The master can easily take the damage from NQs in low man situations in proper engage sets if need be… this can be an issue for your puppet if the half halo has too many targets (jeuno has some that are PUP or all SMN that kind of suck if you puppet doesn’t have full DT) .If you are taking a full alliance, the nq should die before anything crazy happens. Once the NQs are dead, the puppet is at cap enmity on the HQ, and I bring it in and finish it off with the party.

For Wave bosses… 1 it hold just fine, as you should have magic damage killing it. Wave 2, it depends on the zone. I find I can do jeuno and windurst fine. Bastok is hard to position correctly so that DDs can hit it. Sandy sucks. Wave 3 it does ok, but I generally take an actual tank there to help.

I do abuse puppet tanking, DynaD is a great way to learn puppet tanking because a statue that is popped by the puppet has not formed enmity on the group until they get hit by an aoe from the statue or they start taking actions on targets. In general, I really like popping wave one and two with puppet (although it occasionally will pull on wrong eyes), and I always use the above method for wave three.
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 Ragnarok.Zealousomega
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By Ragnarok.Zealousomega 2022-06-21 12:37:32  
For Dyna D, my static and I have 3 parties with one party having 5 pups (1 Tankmaton + 4 RNGmatons) and a cor for pet buffs. We utiltize overdrive any time we can to help with kill speed. Tankmation (bruiser) with standard attachments and master with max pet pdt geear(Rao +1), RNGmastons with DD attachments and heat capacitors to gain instant tp while 1x wind 2x fire maneuvers up. We end up pulling the adds from the circle and kill off mobs first. Tankmation can hold those bosses rather well with just light wind and fire while the remaining pups help dps the leaders and the other 2 parties. Unfornately pup can't compete with other DPS jobs as far as damage on leaders but they do make work of the lesser mobs and our little group has been striving in the win colemn in tier 3. We manage with at least 30mins + remaining on the Disjoined boss to kill. The attachments I used are the same on the String theory webpage and well as advice from Aerix.
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By Aerix 2022-07-01 02:31:24  
Ragnarok.Zealousomega said: »
For Dyna D, my static and I have 3 parties with one party having 5 pups (1 Tankmaton + 4 RNGmatons) and a cor for pet buffs. We utiltize overdrive any time we can to help with kill speed. Tankmation (bruiser) with standard attachments and master with max pet pdt geear(Rao +1), RNGmastons with DD attachments and heat capacitors to gain instant tp while 1x wind 2x fire maneuvers up. We end up pulling the adds from the circle and kill off mobs first. Tankmation can hold those bosses rather well with just light wind and fire while the remaining pups help dps the leaders and the other 2 parties. Unfornately pup can't compete with other DPS jobs as far as damage on leaders but they do make work of the lesser mobs and our little group has been striving in the win colemn in tier 3. We manage with at least 30mins + remaining on the Disjoined boss to kill. The attachments I used are the same on the String theory webpage and well as advice from Aerix.

When you say RNGmatons, I presume mean VE/SS?

The String Theory guide is still outdated until I find some time to give it a rework. Personally, I'd recommend against using Heat Capacitors as attachment slots are at a premium and Companion's Roll is basically like a permanent Meditate already. For max damage with 2x Fire / 1x Wind I'd go with something like this:

- Attuner
- Flame Holder
- Tension Spring 4
- Magniplug 1+2
- Turbo Charger 1+2
- Truesights
- Target Marker
- Coiler 2
- Optic Fiber 1+2

Has no ARK4, so Comp Roll and Repair are needed to keep the maton alive. Can swap TS4 and Coiler 2 with Inhibitors if you think the maton won't get blocked by other people's WS spam, but rather unlikely in a Dyna run with 3 parties. If Accuracy is an issue I'd also drop Coiler 2 (or Truesights if already using Inhibs) for the highest Stabilizer.
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 Ragnarok.Zealousomega
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By Ragnarok.Zealousomega 2022-07-01 12:20:00  
Actually using SS/SS are my RNGmatons, I may make that suggestion from the heat capacitors. No ARK4 on these just going for raw power. They do constant 13+ weaponskills
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By Aerix 2022-07-01 19:43:01  
Ragnarok.Zealousomega said: »
Actually using SS/SS are my RNGmatons, I may make that suggestion from the heat capacitors. No ARK4 on these just going for raw power. They do constant 13+ weaponskills

In that case I'd go for more of a white damage approach instead (see Ranged DPS/TP sets in the guide node if you aren't using those already):

- Magniplug 1+2
- Attuner
- Tension Spring 5
- Drum Magazine
- Scope 4
- Barrage Turbine
- Truesights
- Repeater
- Heatsink
- Optic Fiber 1+2

I run this with triple Wind at all times (Heatsink, Midnights swap and frequent Cooldown usage make Overload a non-issue, so KKK isn't mandatory) and switch to 2xFire/1x Wind during Overdrive. I'd recommend equipping Flame Holder instead of Heatsink or Barrage Turbine before you OD to maximize Arcuballista damage and then switch back to the previous setup after it's done. KKK owners can probably just keep FH instead of Heatsink at all times to be able to OD on-the-fly, but they'll probably have to be a bit mindful of Overload and use Cooldown well.

Use Target Marker and/or Stabilizer 5 instead of Barrage Turbine and/or TS5 if you are having Ranged Accuracy issues. For some reason Stabilizers boost both melee and ranged Acc compared to Scopes and it's still a nice +40 before OFs without any Thunder Maneuvers.

This setup should shoot for 2k-6k Ranged Attacks every few seconds to keep the DPS going and should WS for a pretty good chunk thanks to Wind Maneuvers boosting Truesights massively (Comp Roll is definitely needed for decent TP speed). The TS5 and Armor Shatterer attack bonus also make WSs very consistent even on higher end NMs while letting everyone in the alliance benefit from the -15% def down. One caveat is that the overall DPS is somewhat lower than a VE/SS full damage setup, but the SS/SS is safer from AoE, doesn't feed as much TP and has spikier damage output if multiple matons shoot something at the same time.

I've actually used a modified version of this setup in VD Ambuscade this month and the maton RA's the Qutrub Bigwig for 20k-50k every few seconds and up to 80k during OD along with capped damage WSs. It's quite fun.
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By Genesiis 2022-07-12 20:15:17  
weird question, can I perform well on PUP without gearswap? just macros..I know it won't be as good as gearswap, I just wanna know are there endgame PUPs playing with macros?
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By Bahamut.Dajjal 2022-07-12 20:27:12  
Many endgame Japanese players don't use gearswap and rely on regular macros. It can be done.
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 Carbuncle.Yiazmaat
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2022-07-13 05:22:43  
Genesiis said: »
weird question, can I perform well on PUP without gearswap? just macros..I know it won't be as good as gearswap, I just wanna know are there endgame PUPs playing with macros?
I use gearswap for pup and tbh ~ 6 out of 10 of the pet ws's are fired in pet tp set because of some latency, you have a better control of your pet ws swap w/o gearswap. As for master tasks such as ws and manoveurs it totally fine w/o gearswap especially on laggy content. The only little downside imo is when you wanna do self sc and pet mb.
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By Asura.Bixbite 2022-07-13 08:48:51  
Genesiis said: »
weird question, can I perform well on PUP without gearswap? just macros..I know it won't be as good as gearswap, I just wanna know are there endgame PUPs playing with macros?

I dont use gs at all but PUP is one of the better jobs for no gs. I switch manually with equipset macros or I just dont bother.

Since pet only pup is not viable in the current "hard" endgame of odyssey. Theres less of need for min maxing damage out of your pet since you are overgeared for the content you can viably use pet only. At mastery level 40 you have almost half an overdrive stat boost permenantly.

Hopefully pet only works for the new content coming in august. Its alot of fun :).

Heres a few reasons why GS is not as needed for pup compared to other jobs who benefit much more.

-Latency causing pet to fire in tp set. If your lua is causing you to fire arcuballista/daze/chimera ripper (and to lesser extent armor piercer) in non tp bonus set (which apparently is often) thats pretty bad.

-Pet often decides to hold tp past 1000. Kind of wasting the store tp on your tp set.

-If you skillchain/burst with pet theres is enough delay to let you manually switch equipset with a macro.

-Automaton is not as dependant on gear stats as other jobs and doesnt recieve enough of damage boost. Partically for Armor Shatterer and String Shredder. Bonecrusher in overdrive too kind of just does around 30k for most puppetmasters. A flaw with equipment currently is the amount of stats the master gets from gear compared to puppet is huge.

-Some pet gear is flat dmg +% boosting all damage (like nyame path D and Sroda) or boosts weaponskill, job abilties and ranged attacks so you can make a tp / ws hybrid set.
The taeon set functions as both a tp set and weaponskill set for bonecrusher set and its the "bis" set for it currently.

-Due to master levels and odyssey gear boosting the crap of master damage and defence the ideal way to play pup in hard content seems to be master only gear with a equipment less tank puppet / heal puppet relying on attachments only. I find our mythic Kenkoken to be quite strong and that discourages using gs for pet gear swaps since you will lose tp gear stats on master.

If you using gs for master dd only then it wouldnt be as impactful as other dd using it who swap their entire equipsets. Since mpaca, gere/niqmaddu ring, moon belt are both in the tp and ws set.
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By Aerix 2022-07-13 12:42:43  
Asura.Bixbite said: »
-Due to master levels and odyssey gear boosting the crap of master damage and defence the ideal way to play pup in hard content seems to be master only gear with a equipment less tank puppet / heal puppet relying on attachments only. I find our mythic Kenkoken to be quite strong and that discourages using gs for pet gear swaps since you will lose tp gear stats on master

Kenkonken is definitely very strong, but if you aren't using the Automaton to DD alongside you then Godhands is "unfortunately" a better choice for pure master damage. Perhaps even moreso if you have a lot of master levels because they benefit us more than our pets.

Technically Godhands is also a better choice if you aren't using Gearswap as your TP speed will be slower, so the 1s equipset delays won't impact you as much. Kenkonken just spams WS so fast you are likely to get locked into the wrong set.
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 Asura.Bixbite
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By Asura.Bixbite 2022-07-13 17:58:10  
The hardest fight Pup is brought along to is Ngai v20 and for that fight you need to ws asap to break the Verve, you get tp really fast with kenkoken. Otherwise you howling at 2k tp which takes enough time not to mess up with equipset macros.
Howling at 2k does around 30k for me on Ngai stringing pummel is doing around 10k at 1000tp.

I just prefer always having tp availible on Ngai vs doing a bit more dps with Godhands. Since that fight the dps check seems low and the wipe is caused by verve not being broken quickly enough.

Kenkoken overload reduction helps you avoid overloading at a bad time since you are not switching in an overload reduction set when you master dd only.
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 Ragnarok.Magicobandito
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By Ragnarok.Magicobandito 2022-07-18 13:24:53  
For PUP V20 tanking, I tried to use my usual turtle tank with all Rao gear. The auto is never in any danger even if I do DD tank, but it just can't hold hate after about 50% even if I OD.

I'm guessing my issue is a lack of enmity on Rao set. Would anyone go full SU3 for Odyssey tanking? Or maybe a mix of Rao and Su3?

Problem also is many of these NMs have physical dmg resistance so the auto does so little dmg to generate hate. Doing V20 craklaw atm.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-07-18 14:34:10  
Ragnarok.Magicobandito said: »
I'm guessing my issue is a lack of enmity on Rao set. Would anyone go full SU3 for Odyssey tanking? Or maybe a mix of Rao and Su3?

Usually ideal turtle tanking set is Rao/Taeon for your idle tanking gear, and swap into Su3/pet enmity set before Flash/Voke. Then swap back to your tanking set. Even if you can survive in Heyoka and it has lots of pet enm+, if you wear it full time you'll lose hate much faster than you would in Rao or Taeon just due to enmity loss from taking a lot more damage.

Personally, I do it manually and just watch the pet JA timers (need Autocontrol addon and Timers plugin for Windower to see automaton strobe/flash timers), and hit a macro to swap into my enmity gear when a JA is coming up. Then another macro to swap back into my turtle gear. Others might have it automated in a Lua, but I don't do that myself and can't give any input on how reliable it is.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-07-18 14:40:24  
Aerix said: »
Kenkoken... Godhands

Now that they FINALLY put Empy items on login points again, I'm planning to make Verethragna pretty soon (a big F no to farming the Chloris Buds myself!) I know it's more of a MNK weapon, and that's my main motivation for it, but... any good uses for a PUP who has all of the other options?

I normally use R15 Kenkonken. Also have R15 Godhands, but on PUP I generally prefer mythic for punching things.
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By Nariont 2022-07-18 14:43:55  
Think GHs would perform slightly better overall since you dont get the lovely impetus boost to VS mnk gets
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-07-18 14:47:28  
Nariont said: »
Think GHs would perform slightly better overall since you dont get the lovely impetus boost to VS mnk gets

Yeah, Impetus and crits on MNK are a substantial advantage in white damage/AM3 up as well as VS.

Just trying to think off the top of my head about any situational uses on PUP where, even without having the huge differentiator of Impetus, Vere might be better. Some sort of crit/white damage focused scenario with an Mpaca-heavy TP set... Otherwise I'd imagine KKK or GH are almost always the better master call on PUP.
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By Nariont 2022-07-18 15:06:33  
possibly, though id still favor SP with ken15 over vere imo
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By Aerix 2022-07-18 21:34:20  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Nariont said: »
Think GHs would perform slightly better overall since you dont get the lovely impetus boost to VS mnk gets

Yeah, Impetus and crits on MNK are a substantial advantage in white damage/AM3 up as well as VS.

Just trying to think off the top of my head about any situational uses on PUP where, even without having the huge differentiator of Impetus, Vere might be better. Some sort of crit/white damage focused scenario with an Mpaca-heavy TP set... Otherwise I'd imagine KKK or GH are almost always the better master call on PUP.

Last time I parsed the two against each other (pre-Mpaca) they were basically even on damage, if I recall correctly. I can't remember if that was with the Light skillchains included, however.

I think I posted the parses here, so they are probably still around and buried in the thread if you want to go searching.

Edit: Or maybe not. Just did a cursory search of my own post history and couldn't find anything at first glance. Might have just done the test and forgot to post the screenshots.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-07-18 23:36:31  
Nariont said: »
possibly, though id still favor SP with ken15 over vere imo

Yeah this is basically my thinking too.

Especially considering in any conceivable situation where you'd be able to best take advantage of Vere's strengths, the real question is why you wouldn't just bring MNK instead of PUP and do the same thing better. And almost anyone with Vere probably has a MNK, because why would you make the weapon otherwise?

I think it would be niche as hell to find a really compelling use case for Vere PUP if you have KKK and GH also available. Really grasping at straws here, but maybe something like an event (Sortie?) where for some reason you wanted something uniquely PUP for one phase of the event (e.g., automaton tank an NM?) but then in other parts of the same run/fight you wanted to focus on master physical DPS with conditions that also lend themselves to an Empy AM3 crit build?

Hard to conceive of it though. Even in something like Dyna where you might want a puppet tanking on stuff like wave bosses and holding wave 3 volte mobs, and farming wave 1-2 trash mobs with a focus on the master... and in that situation I'd still generally prefer KKK or maybe GH (and the biggest thing going for GH in that case is no need to maintain aftermath in an event with a significant amount of running around/downtime).

Aerix said: »
Last time I parsed the two against each other (pre-Mpaca) they were basically even on damage, if I recall correctly. I can't remember if that was with the Light skillchains included, however.

Interesting. And hey, Mpaca crits + Empy AM3 should give Vere a little boost. And if light SCs weren't included... OK, adding those in helps Vere's case even more. All of this assuming you can maintain aftermath well.

I guess I'll mess with it eventually when I finish the Vere. But yeah, totally not making the weapon with PUP in mind. I'm absolutely doing it with MNK as the reason, just curious about some occasional potential 'bonus' use on PUP.
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By Aerix 2022-07-19 00:26:42  
Just to clarify, I meant R15 KKK and R15 Verethragna were almost equal in DPS. Godhands was roughly 700 DPS ahead of both, if I recall correctly.

I think that was with Light SCs excluded, however, so KKK would be better for spamming, while Vere is better if you are skillchaining solo or with your maton. Though of course Mythic AM3 helps the maton keep up.

As far as Empy Aftermath goes, I'm pretty sure the spreadsheets indicate it's not worth saving up TP for AM3 on Vere for PUP. The extra white damage is nice, but it's only a relatively minor boost over AM1 and we can't capitalize on it as much as MNK can.
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 Asura.Neviskio
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By Asura.Neviskio 2022-07-19 09:37:48  
Been wondering, is divine might II soloable by pup and if so what difficulty/gear? I don't have su4/5 but got decent gear for overdrive. Been thinking to give it a try but not sure what automaton setup to go for and difficulty.

I'd heard it should be too bad on RUN but kinda was thinking my pup might have better gear for this... thoughts?
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By Nariont 2022-07-19 10:42:18  
https://youtu.be/jOOpeiwTdhQ

It's soloable, though id consider it a bit RNG from past experience, bringing a cor for rolls helps immensely obviously, or a 2nd pup to spread out a bit
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By ksoze 2022-07-20 03:36:03  
Hi guys, can someone share a v1 Bumba attachment set that works for them? I don't have enough segments to test stuff out myself. Sadlol
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By Odin.Slore 2022-08-05 12:01:09  
Ok all a very basic question but with not having a shell or group I gotta be picky.

With that said what is the absolute must for a up and coming pup as far as AF+3, relic +3 etc. Mainly the JSE ear gear, priorities, must haves, dont use etc.
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By Asura.Bixbite 2022-08-05 14:11:06  
Quote:
Ok all a very basic question but with not having a shell or group I gotta be picky.

With that said what is the absolute must for a up and coming pup as far as AF+3, relic +3 etc. Mainly the JSE ear gear, priorities, must haves, dont use et

AF3 boots for Repair +3 is nice but don't really "need" any AF+3 or Relic+3.
If you are using solo pet dd would want Empy body+1 for overload reduction, Empy Head+1 and Dispersal mantle augmented for certain pet tp moves (arcu,daze,piercer,chimera ripper.)

Taeon Set augmented is very versatile with double attack +5%, dt-4% and x stat (i go pet acc.)

If you are pet tanking Heyoka set is a must. Rao +1 set for pet +hp and -dt is nice for when pet is being hurt/tanking.
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By Nariont 2022-08-05 14:12:00  
AF+3 would be the feet, the hands are nice for additional stats but you can leave that at +2, relic is mostly the body since its such a strong puppet melee piece, if you plan to nuke the legs/feet are solid, and heads a nice puppet idle. Empyrean you mayswell get the whole set done since we dont know what+2 will look like and majority of that set is useful, head for tp bonus, body for maneuver swapping, feet for tactical switch, hands/legs dont have too much use atm, though hands make an okay ws swap for ss ws
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-08-05 15:21:26  
Odin.Slore said: »
Ok all a very basic question but with not having a shell or group I gotta be picky.

With that said what is the absolute must for a up and coming pup as far as AF+3, relic +3 etc. Mainly the JSE ear gear, priorities, must haves, dont use etc.

IMO, the only absolute must have is the Relic Body for Overdrive duration. And for that purpose, you don't even need reforged/ilevel version, lv90 Pitre+2 does the same thing.

My thoughts on the JSE sets:

Artifact
Must-have: None
Nice to have: Hands +3 (maneuver effect+/overload rate-), Feet +3 (Repair removes more enfeebles)
OK: Body (WSD+10 looks nice at first glance, but most of PUP's go-to WS will not be using WSD gear; pet HP is occasionally useful), Legs (pet DT- option, but there are other better choices)
Completionists only: Head (pet regen/refresh idle piece)

Relic
Must-have: Body, Overdrive duration as noted above, and also just an excellent pet melee/TP piece
Nice to have (but HIGHLY situational): Legs/Feet +3, best in slot puppet nuking gear... but only applicable if you're using puppet nukes, which are niche at best. These two also enhance Ventriloquy and Role Reversal, but you only need the lv90 versions or better for JA macro purposes.
OK: Hands (WSD+10, but as noted above for AF body, that's generally of questionable utility for PUP)
Completionists only: Head

Empyrean (up to lv119 +1, obviously will change with the release of +2/+3 gear and would not be surprising to see any of these become a lot more valuable)
Must-have: None
Nice to have: Body (overload rate-), head (Automaton TP Bonus can be quite good for things like puppet WS during Overdrive - can be tricky to use though, or even to set up automated Gearswap sets) I don't use Gearswap, so can't provide further advice on that point
OK: Feet (Tactical Switch macro piece, relatively minor though)
Completionists only: Hands, Legs
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