High End Sets Advice/Suggestions/Ideas/LUA |
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High End Sets Advice/Suggestions/Ideas/LUA
SimonSes said: » Depends how long is the fight and what buffs you have. With good samurai roll, /DRG is usually few% DPS ahead during Last Resort up. /Sam only wins by a lot, when LR is down. So if the fight is less than 3 mins 15 sec or you can refresh cool down on LR with random deal or other things, then /DRG is very good option. I would actually make the argument that letting rip a 50K+ weaponskill within the first 30 seconds of a fight is going to be heavily detrimental to your survival. Unless of course you're sitting on 6K+ HP where you might have a chance for survival.
At which point, you might as well be swinging an Empyrean or an Apocalypse over a Mythic. I honestly can't in good faith ever advocate for /DRG. The 50 seconds in which Last Resort is down in a longer fight or in events in general is going to be a significant dip DPS-wise.
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The difference between /Sam and /DRG is very straightforward tho with LR up. It's 20 storeTP versus 10% WS bonus. Not sure what special sheet scenario you mean here.
Bahamut.Justthetip said: » So at no point are you getting the full setup like the sheet. If you use the same gear then you are by no means capped so the extra ws% isn't making it up I have no idea what are you talking about here. What cap? Haste cap? With LR up, hasso is not doing anything beside adding 7str, 10acc and adding tons of casting/recast time. You shouldn't even use hasso with LR up unless you know for sure you won't be casting anything or you have accuracy issues. Bahamut.Braams said: » I would actually make the argument that letting rip a 50K+ weaponskill within the first 30 seconds of a fight is going to be heavily detrimental to your survival. Unless of course you're sitting on 6K+ HP where you might have a chance for survival. At which point, you might as well be swinging an Empyrean or an Apocalypse over a Mythic. I honestly can't in good faith ever advocate for /DRG. The 50 seconds in which Last Resort is down in a longer fight or in events in general is going to be a significant dip DPS-wise. You might want to go back and read again. Simon was saying that /drg is good if the fight lasts ~3mins or you have a way of getting LR back like random deal or super revit. /sam then pulls way ahead if you cant and you need hasso for when LR is down. Also Hybrid or full defense sets are there for a reason you can use them and live till the tank takes hate back. Lets not forgot that /drg with mlvls gets High Jump and Super Jump which are extremely effective tools to make sure you ARENT TANKING. 99k weaponskill in the first 10secs of a fight? No *** problem Super jump! Actually, was agreeing with Tip.. we're all more or less saying the same thing to be honest.
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Odin.Creaucent said: » Bahamut.Braams said: » I would actually make the argument that letting rip a 50K+ weaponskill within the first 30 seconds of a fight is going to be heavily detrimental to your survival. Unless of course you're sitting on 6K+ HP where you might have a chance for survival. At which point, you might as well be swinging an Empyrean or an Apocalypse over a Mythic. I honestly can't in good faith ever advocate for /DRG. The 50 seconds in which Last Resort is down in a longer fight or in events in general is going to be a significant dip DPS-wise. You might want to go back and read again. Simon was saying that /drg is good if the fight lasts ~3mins or you have a way of getting LR back like random deal or super revit. /sam then pulls way ahead if you cant and you need hasso for when LR is down. Also Hybrid or full defense sets are there for a reason you can use them and live till the tank takes hate back. Lets not forgot that /drg with mlvls gets High Jump and Super Jump which are extremely effective tools to make sure you ARENT TANKING. 99k weaponskill in the first 10secs of a fight? No *** problem Super jump! SimonSes said: » The difference between /Sam and /DRG is very straightforward tho with LR up. It's 20 storeTP versus 10% WS bonus. Not sure what special sheet scenario you mean here. Bahamut.Justthetip said: » So at no point are you getting the full setup like the sheet. If you use the same gear then you are by no means capped so the extra ws% isn't making it up I have no idea what are you talking about here. What cap? Haste cap? With LR up, hasso is not doing anything beside adding 7str, 10acc and adding tons of casting/recast time. You shouldn't even use hasso with LR up unless you know for sure you won't be casting anything or you have accuracy issues. All honesty- I do hate /DRG as well, and really only pull it out when absolutely necessary. But my experience is the same as Simon's- if LR can be up either the whole fight or a vast majority of it, the dps variance isn't as big.
I still prefer the "feel" of /SAM, and I think that is what people cite when they say its so much better DPS wise than other subjobs- it just feels better. Not to say that we're all at the mercy of our feelings (I mean, this is a DRK forum, but that's a bit too /wrist'y for me), but it might fit. I think this discussion is pointless. I'm saying /DRG is good in scenario, where you can full time LR and you tell me /Sam is better because you can't maintain LR full time...
I could start listing many scenarios where you can full time LR, but I kinda feel it would only push this conversation into darker corner. Edit: answering @Justthetip ofc
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SimonSes said: » I think this discussion is pointless. I'm saying /DRG is good in scenario, where you can full time LR and you tell me /Sam is better because you can't maintain LR full time... I could start listing many scenarios where you can full time LR, but I kinda feel it would only push this conversation into darker corner. Edit: answering @Justthetip ofc Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^
I've come to believe that the more fervent the conversation in a forum, the better position that job currently is in. And DRK is really in a great spot these days.
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I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: » Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^ Baniak and JTT are incredible players
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Bahamut.Braams said: » I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug I wish there would be something like that, but i doubt that would solve anything. Most builds has lots of randomness like at least 95% hit rate and multi attack %. This means that you would need to hit this dummies for like few hours to produce average DPS with margin of error low enough to compare builds that are 1-2% from ech other. Good luck redoing that several hours test every time you would change one piece of gear and want to check if it's maybe 0.5% ahead :)
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If you need that sort of data/testing to come to a conclusion, all the more power to you. I'm okay with reasonable margins of error and can come to my own conclusions at least. :/
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Bahamut.Braams said: » I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug
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Yea im not calling into question the player I'm just saying drg is offering wsd and jumps. Sam offers you more than just hasso so I find it hard to be using the same sets you put out better numbers. Your stp is off you turn the 6 it to a 7 or 8 hit. Scythe is even worse when making that sub change. Gear changes need to happen otherwise you not gonna have to worry about the jumps your dps gonna be dropped off anyway so the benefit is semi lost
SimonSes said: » Bahamut.Braams said: » I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug I wish there would be something like that, but i doubt that would solve anything. Most builds has lots of randomness like at least 95% hit rate and multi attack %. This means that you would need to hit this dummies for like few hours to produce average DPS with margin of error low enough to compare builds that are 1-2% from ech other. Good luck redoing that several hours test every time you would change one piece of gear and want to check if it's maybe 0.5% ahead :) Bahamut.Justthetip said: » Yea im not calling into question the player I'm just saying drg is offering wsd and jumps. Sam offers you more than just hasso so I find it hard to be using the same sets you put out better numbers. Your stp is off you turn the 6 it to a 7 or 8 hit. Scythe is even worse when making that sub change. Gear changes need to happen otherwise you not gonna have to worry about the jumps your dps gonna be dropped off anyway so the benefit is semi lost If your xhit is lower, then your white damage in the cycle is higher by several thousands and you end up at higher TP (because instead of lets say getting 1010TP in 5 hits, you get 1150TP in 6hits), so your WS is even stronger than 10%. It's not as simple as lower xhit = higher dps.
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SimonSes said: » Bahamut.Justthetip said: » Yea im not calling into question the player I'm just saying drg is offering wsd and jumps. Sam offers you more than just hasso so I find it hard to be using the same sets you put out better numbers. Your stp is off you turn the 6 it to a 7 or 8 hit. Scythe is even worse when making that sub change. Gear changes need to happen otherwise you not gonna have to worry about the jumps your dps gonna be dropped off anyway so the benefit is semi lost If your xhit is lower, then your white damage in the cycle is higher by several thousands and you end up at higher TP (because instead of lets say getting 1010TP in 5 hits, you get 1150TP in 6hits), so your WS is even stronger than 10%. It's not as simple as lower xhit = higher dps. Bahamut.Justthetip said: » Also legit question wouldnt the 10%WSD be semi low gain anyway if we assume attack capped and stuff? Not sure how haste capped and attack capped is related to what 10% WS bonus from /drg would give you. Lower haste and attack would only lower dps, but wouldn't change split for white/WS damage, unless your TP and WS set are based on very different PDL levels and lower attack would mean you cap one, but not other. Also you realize it's unique 10% WS damage bonus. It multiplies whole WS damage by ~110% instead of stacking with WSD from gear/gifts. Just making sure. SimonSes said: » Bahamut.Justthetip said: » Also legit question wouldnt the 10%WSD be semi low gain anyway if we assume attack capped and stuff? Not sure how haste capped and attack capped is related to what 10% WS bonus from /drg would give you. Lower haste and attack would only lower dps, but wouldn't change split for white/WS damage, unless your TP and WS set are based on very different PDL levels and lower attack would mean you cap one, but not other. Also you realize it's unique 10% WS damage bonus. It multiplies whole WS damage by ~110% instead of stacking with WSD from gear/gifts. Just making sure. Ramuh.Austar said: » Bahamut.Braams said: » I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug That's fine too. I mean, the way I see it at least, some folx use spreadsheets, in your case Austar (and possibly others) a simulator is a more effective tool. I know I'm an outlier in most of these discussions but a lot of the numbers don't help me much... I've played the job long enough to be extremely familiar with what dmg I'm doing based on buffs/debuffs used and can create a model/graph in my mind with minimal information/data. Bahamut.Braams said: » Ramuh.Austar said: » Bahamut.Braams said: » I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug That's fine too. I mean, the way I see it at least, some folx use spreadsheets, in your case Austar (and possibly others) a simulator is a more effective tool. I know I'm an outlier in most of these discussions but a lot of the numbers don't help me much... I've played the job long enough to be extremely familiar with what dmg I'm doing based on buffs/debuffs used and can create a model/graph in my mind with minimal information/data. On DRK, i can pretty much just "feel" if my dps is low, hazard of playing the job so long. On other jobs, I'll usually try for a "real world" test. Recently tested out 30 minutes fighting apex on pld/war with neagling vs R15 excal. Spreadsheet might say one wins vs the other, but my level of suck may say different! For me, overall DPS with neagling was higher, but when factoring in skillchain damage from lights, excal pulled ahead ever so slightly. (scoreboard)
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Spreadsheet has issues accounting for possible sc damage of ws, in a lot of cases if your ws can consistently close a sc itll pull ahead of the "best" ws, though depends on the level of sc too/resists and so on
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and my biggest issue with simulations/attack dummy type things...they don't fight back. And on DRK, that can be a big deal if no hyped up Drain3+spikes is possible due to the mob type,etc.
Yeah, we can definitely take a hit better than most non-tank jobs, and Drain3/Spikes gives us a tool most tanks would lose sleep dreaming about having....but catch us at the wrong time and its game over, baby. So sure, sims and the like can do a lot for base understanding of job/gear interactions, but in my mind they'll always be risky to put complete trust in due to the fact that they can't simulate getting your ***pushed in^^ Ramuh.Austar said: » Yes they can Just a matter of lack of exposure on my part, then. You can do everything in sim, but creating such sim and QAing it to make sure it's actually doing what you want and has no errors is a giant task that almost none gonna do, because you could make similar project for real word problem as part of your daily job or additional job and earn lots of $$. It's not impossible tho that someone will from time to time make something more advanced anyway, like stuff Izanami is doing for NIN for example.
what skillchains for great sword and for Scythe
forget to mention i have Caladbolg and Liberator do i need more weapons? GS = Torcleaver
Scythe = Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus or 4 step Insurgency > Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus for darkness skillchains. Guillotine > Shadow of Death > Insurgency for light. Since you have Liberator you also have the option of firing off Insurgency at 2000tp. |
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