High End Sets Advice/Suggestions/Ideas/LUA

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High End Sets Advice/Suggestions/Ideas/LUA
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By SimonSes 2022-08-05 06:15:24  
Odin.Creaucent said: »
GS = Torcleaver

Scythe = Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus or 4 step Insurgency > Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus for darkness skillchains. Guillotine > Shadow of Death > Insurgency for light.

Since you have Liberator you also have the option of firing off Insurgency at 2000tp.

qe58hmr said: »
do i need more weapons?

I feel like every other REMA scythe is better for darkness skillchain tbh

Anguta with:
2000TP Entropy -> Cross Reaper -> Entropy (Umbra)
Insurgency -> Entropy -> CR -> Entropy (Umbra)

Redemption with the same SC options as Liberator, but stronger Quietus at the end and weaker Insurgency at start, but also with much better white damage

Apocalypse with:
Catastrophe -> Cross Reaper -> Catastrophe

On the other hand Liberator AM3 might be important to even let you 4step, if you don't have Samurai Roll and if you have it, you can hold TP to 2000 on Entropy and Cross Reaper. Quietus at the end will still be weak, but with 4/5 Nyame and Sakpata legs and being 4step, Double Darkness can potentially hit for 80k+ anyway (assuming target with "neutral" 100%SDT and avg Quietus damage).
 Asura.Zacheus
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By Asura.Zacheus 2022-08-05 08:19:40  
You can also turn the 4 step into 5 by opening with Cross Reaper. With Liberator a 5 step is fairly easy to pull off. It might be with Redemption and Anguta as well, but I can’t speak to those as I don’t have them :)
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By SimonSes 2022-08-05 08:39:21  
Asura.Zacheus said: »
You can also turn the 4 step into 5 by opening with Cross Reaper. With Liberator a 5 step is fairly easy to pull off. It might be with Redemption and Anguta as well, but I can’t speak to those as I don’t have them :)

Yep, but I cant think of a place where you would use 5step like this. Most thing are dead after 3-4 step and most things that are not dead, you probably not killing solo. Maybe Kalunga to proc blue !! when it used Roar 3rd time :)
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By SimonSes 2022-08-05 08:56:00  
Also I know the question was about GS and Scythe but

Lycurgos with 5000+ HP:
Steel Cyclone > Upheaval > Steel Syclone 3step Darkness
Upheaval > SC > Uph > SC 4step Darkness

Dolichenus:
Decimation > Smash Axe > Decimation > Decimation 4 step Light

are also very strong options.
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By Afania 2022-08-05 09:19:59  
Nariont said: »
Spreadsheet has issues accounting for possible sc damage of ws,

Yes you can......by calculating the avg.

For example: If a WS does 100 dmg that SC with itself with 100% SC dmg. That means every 2 WS you do your actual WS dmg is 100(WS dmg) + 100(WS dmg) + 100(SC dmg)= 300.

Since every 2 WS you do 300 dmg, your avg dmg per WS in a cycle is 150.

Then you can manually input 150 in WS slot by adding values. Get the avg DPS, then compare the avg DPS with another sc-less WS build.

There are MANY different way to use a spreadsheet. It's more like a calculator that you can modify for the questions that you need an answer for.
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By Afania 2022-08-05 09:40:34  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Yes they can
Then I stand corrected, because all the data I have ever seen posted never involved having to balance hate to avoid damage, damage dealt to evaluate the safety of a set, or the like.

Just a matter of lack of exposure on my part, then.

A lot of set discussions on forums assumes very simplified situations because nobody like to read/type 5 pages of essay calculating avg DPS in A B C D E F G H Y Z situations. It takes too much time, and super optimization is rarely required to play FFXI and beat most things.

But if you are into that level of optimization for every single decisions that you made then yes, math can model all kinds of situations if you really want. In a game that everything is 0 and 1s and formulas, theorically the optimal choice in game that doesn't involve human emotions in PVP can be solved by math.

I have dozens DT- sets. I pretty much build all of them with math, because I can't make logical decisions with my feeling nor emotions, and math is my best friend to solve such problems.

Just because "attack/acc/haste capped TP WS set" is posted on forums often, doesn't mean math can only figure out sets in such situations but not everything else. You have to tweak your math models for your own need.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-05 11:45:43  
Afania said: »
Nariont said: »
Spreadsheet has issues accounting for possible sc damage of ws,

Yes you can......by calculating the avg.

For example: If a WS does 100 dmg that SC with itself with 100% SC dmg. That means every 2 WS you do your actual WS dmg is 100(WS dmg) + 100(WS dmg) + 100(SC dmg)= 300.

Since every 2 WS you do 300 dmg, your avg dmg per WS in a cycle is 150.

Then you can manually input 150 in WS slot by adding values. Get the avg DPS, then compare the avg DPS with another sc-less WS build.

There are MANY different way to use a spreadsheet. It's more like a calculator that you can modify for the questions that you need an answer for.
A better way would be to setup set 1 and 2 separately, one for opening and one for closing SC, have set 2 calculate SC modifiers like mob resistance and sc bonus/damage, then you're able to use two different WS instead of one to one, and from there you can find more use for SC damage gear.

Similarly, you can setup set 1 for non AM3 and setup 2 for AM3 active, then find your time to get 3K on data page and do 180 for set 2 and X for set one time and find that as well.

Both of these things I've mentioned before but nobody wants to actually put any effort in and I don't care to either since a simulation does it all better anyways.
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By Bahamut.Braams 2022-08-05 11:46:49  
I just wanted to point out that a 5-step skillchain is perfectly possible with pretty much all the REMA Scythes.

As said, start with Cross Reaper or Quietus (Distortion) > Insurgency (Fusion) > Entropy (Gravitation) > CR (Darkness) > close with Darkness Weaponskill of Choice.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-05 13:08:38  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Both of these things I've mentioned before but nobody wants to actually put any effort in and I don't care to either since a simulation does it all better anyways.

I think it's also because things that you solo skillchain and you care about reaching slightly higher damage is not really much. It mostly happens, if you lowman some outdated content with one DD or maybe if you solo Apex with Trusts, but then you probably do some 3-4 step that overkills by a lot with last step and it doesn't really matter if you slightly optimize it anyway.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-05 13:36:50  
25-40% is not "slightly" higher damage when compared to no SC or 3-4 compared to a 2 step.

two step light/dark on a neutral target with any opener and a strong closer like req > expiacion will do more than just spamming expiacion as well.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-05 14:32:27  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
25-40% is not "slightly" higher damage when compared to no SC or 3-4 compared to a 2 step.

two step light/dark on a neutral target with any opener and a strong closer like req > expiacion will do more than just spamming expiacion as well.

By slightly I meant optimizing gear in sheet for closing WS/SC like you suggested, not solo sc vs no sc.

Usually people who find themselves in solo DD situation are aware of solo skillchain being more effective than just WS spam (especially people who would also bother to use sheet in the first place), but then solo skillchain usually end up in overkill anyway. It would only have sense to optimize if your 2-3-4 step is on the edge of killing the mob or do it irregularly and you want to push it slightly to change that, or if you lowman some Kei or HELMs and care enough to optimize solo SC to kill few second faster. What Im trying to say here its so niche, that probably almost none bother to edit sheet for that.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-05 17:10:23  
and what would you consider "worth it" then? because even if you have two DDs, and SCs aren't directly detrimental or the mob has resistance to everything, there is a good chance it's an overall DPS increase.

and considering you'll sit and argue over less than 2% increase for some stuff, what's the issue now?

I would say optimizing solo/trust play is more important than optimizing around "bis only" play.
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By Asura.Azagarth 2022-08-06 14:23:32  
I find aiming to random SC dmg is usually going to increase party dps more than most things will be able to. Its why I almost always favor scythe.

I am having a blast with Redemption doing 5 steps on stuff that will live. It also pairs well with other dd's and holding tp is not a dps loss so I can wait to close sc's easier.

Also while its not not a perfect example, when I solo apex crabs for testing a 3 step with scythe kills them, and calad cant do it in 3 torcs. So for solo play scythe is probably best dps on most things, and offers best survivability.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-08-06 14:25:29  
Asura.Azagarth said: »
I find aiming to random SC dmg is usually going to increase party dps more than most things will be able to. Its why I almost always favor scythe.

Really depends on the number of people randomly SCing. Two DD's using compatible WS's, definitely a great idea. Having a BRD and COR also spamming Savage Blade will kill any random SC's due to the window never being open much.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-07 03:08:46  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
and what would you consider "worth it" then? because even if you have two DDs, and SCs aren't directly detrimental or the mob has resistance to everything, there is a good chance it's an overall DPS increase.

and considering you'll sit and argue over less than 2% increase for some stuff, what's the issue now?

I would say optimizing solo/trust play is more important than optimizing around "bis only" play.

Im talking about your specific idea of optimizing solo sc dps in sheet. Optimizing DPS with skillchains is imo very case by case example and calculating overall dps gains will often not work.

Example would be self SC in Odyssey C. Lets say you do 30k+30k+35k. What would be optimal here if mob only has 75k hp? Optimizing overall dps, but increasing WS/SC damage? Probably not, because you overkill anyway. Optimal here would be packing storeTP on first WS set to get higher TP return and make 2nd WS faster (probably marginally, but still). If you make enough damage store TP swaps could even go to 2nd WS too.

All that would be much easier to do in sim. In sheet it would be probably so much work to edit it for 99% of people (not to mention understanding what to look for to optimize), that it would be easier to just test few setups in practice and go with that.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Really depends on the number of people randomly SCing. Two DD's using compatible WS's, definitely a great idea. Having a BRD and COR also spamming Savage Blade will kill any random SC's due to the window never being open much.

There is more to that. If you have 4 real players being able to DD on lets say 2xDD and COR and BRD, then even if 2x DD SCing and BRD and COR watching is the optimal DPS, it's simply not enjoyable for said BRD and COR. It would be an option for 6boxer tho.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-07 08:57:13  
SimonSes said: »
All that would be much easier to do in sim. In sheet it would be probably so much work to edit it for 99% of people (not to mention understanding what to look for to optimize), that it would be easier to just test few setups in practice and go with that.
It wouldn't be that difficult at all. Add a new stat, just like PDL, a new boolean for Set 2 for SC, and then make a cell next to the WS damage on the gear page where it shows the damage and just set a multiplier of ws damage cell + (ws damage cell x 1 + sc damage / 100) * mob resistance cell. and on data page, you'd just change the WS one to if sc2 is true, use the new cell if not use the current ws damage cell.

the issue you mentioned about overkill is going to be the same for non-sc situations as well, that's just an issue with a spreadsheet in general.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-07 09:13:26  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
SimonSes said: »
All that would be much easier to do in sim. In sheet it would be probably so much work to edit it for 99% of people (not to mention understanding what to look for to optimize), that it would be easier to just test few setups in practice and go with that.
It wouldn't be that difficult at all. Add a new stat, just like PDL, a new boolean for Set 2 for SC, and then make a cell next to the WS damage on the gear page where it shows the damage and just set a multiplier of ws damage cell + (ws damage cell x 1 + sc damage / 100) * mob resistance cell. and on data page, you'd just change the WS one to if sc2 is true, use the new cell if not use the current ws damage cell.

the issue you mentioned about overkill is going to be the same for non-sc situations as well, that's just an issue with a spreadsheet in general.

I haven't said it would be difficult, just lots of work, especially for someone who would want to do it not knowing sheet very well.

I don't think overkill issue is just a problem for sheet exclusively. It's the same problem for simulation, unless you decide to address it, but you can do the same in sheet.

EDIT: Also steps you described are again just to calculate self SC cycle damage, which like I said is often not optimal. There is much more self SC cases ending with big overkill than the ones ending with on the edge of killing.

EDIT2: Also sheet is just a tool (at least for me) that gives me some info. I still make my own decisions :)
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By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-07 10:54:17  
It would take 10 minutes.

It's not so much an issue for the sheet since it doesn't take mob health into account at all. My simulations do and can simulate a full JP farm with delay between mobs even. And killing something with a closing skillchain is not a problem like you think it is. If my WS doesn't kill something, and the SC does by more than the exact mob HP, that's still faster than meleeing the last bit.

And how is it not optimal to do more damage? In the case of DRK using a greatsword, Torc > Torc and factoring in the SC damage will do more than just spamming torc and ignoring the damage. Req > expiacion will do more DPS than spamming expiacion. Are skillchains always an option? No, of course not, but when they are and you have 1 or 2 DD, there is no reason not to use them unless there is are mechanics requiring you not to.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-07 12:22:29  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
It would take 10 minutes.

It's not so much an issue for the sheet since it doesn't take mob health into account at all. My simulations do and can simulate a full JP farm with delay between mobs even. And killing something with a closing skillchain is not a problem like you think it is. If my WS doesn't kill something, and the SC does by more than the exact mob HP, that's still faster than meleeing the last bit.

And how is it not optimal to do more damage? In the case of DRK using a greatsword, Torc > Torc and factoring in the SC damage will do more than just spamming torc and ignoring the damage. Req > expiacion will do more DPS than spamming expiacion. Are skillchains always an option? No, of course not, but when they are and you have 1 or 2 DD, there is no reason not to use them unless there is are mechanics requiring you not to.

It's either me not able to write it clearly or you have problem with reading, because you keep writing I have said something I had not.

I didn't write anything about solo SC being a bad idea, or not being a dps increase.

TL;DR For the whole time I'm talking about optimizing solo SC vs solo SC, not no SC vs solo SC.

Example:
Mob has 80000HP
Melee+WS+Melee+WS+SC is doing on avg 5k+30k+5k+30k+30k 100k

WS+WS+SC is better than 2xWS. That is clear.

How to optimize it tho? Optimizing DPS in this case IN SHEET could probably lead you too doing higher dps, but it could not lead to faster kill, because what you want to optimize here would be doing 80k+ damage as fast as possible, which might not be equal to optimizing dps in general. In that case you would kill faster adding store TP to first WS, to make 2nd WS faster. Sheet would show you lower DPS, but in that specific scenario you would kill faster. If you don't understand now, than I can't write it in more simple way and I'm done with this discussion.

Imo if you want to optimize solo SC situations, you should probably do it case by case and optimize killing time, which might not go hand to hand with overall dps. Changing sheet to help with that would be much more difficult, than just adding skillchain mechanic.
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