Jack Of All Trades: A Guide To Red Mage

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2010-06-21
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Jack of All Trades: A Guide to Red Mage
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-07 02:03:20  
It's on FFXIAH boards, it's been briefly discussed. I can't remember the name of the guy who found this out and posted the report. Was french and had a moogle for his avatar.
I was pretty WTF when he posted the results.

Again, I'm not sure if this can have some realistical implications, I get the feeling when monsters cast slowga they overwrite regardless.
I think the guy's tests were done in Ballista/Brenner so I'm not even sure if we can consider those relevant for Player vs Monster environment.
Do monsters even have a Skill value that gets accounted into their formula/calculations?
For the most part I think monsters use the same formulas as us players, just with different values, but I dunno about that in this specific circumstance.


According to his tests it wasn't a "chance", I didn't word my previous post correctly.
It was more a matter that Slow could never overwrite Haste, if haste was cast with above XXX skill.
But clearly this XXX threshold must be very very high against relevant targets.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-07 02:10:02  
I think the guy I was talking about might have been Hiep but I'm not 100% sure.
Could be worth asking him!
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By Asura.Hiraishinsenna 2020-09-07 05:55:14  
What?
Just how many beers did you have at the beach yesterday?
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By Nariont 2020-09-07 06:25:51  
without some real testing i find it hard to believe, in the past it was just haste 1 will block slow 1(25% values, which most older content uses) and i think both will fail on anything above which is generally 30-50%+ and is what most most post-cop mobs use nowadays whether it be in aoe or single target form

if it was in ballista/brenner i could see it acting differently since player slow is variable while i think all mobs are fixed % values
 Shiva.Cziella
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By Shiva.Cziella 2020-09-07 08:21:06  
Hiep is not french, so you are thinking of someone else, not all moogles come from the same place.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-09-07 09:50:00  
Nariont said: »
if it was in ballista/brenner i could see it acting differently since player slow is variable while i think all mobs are fixed % values

If it was in ballista/brenner the test is literally irrelevant since those PvP zones have raised status resistances to continued use, and other very strange mechanics. Unless the tester made sure to kill the person after every single use, it's flawed. Casting slow on a target a handful of times and then the opponent will be almost flat-out immune to it, thats how status enfeebles work in Ballista/Brenner.
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By waffle 2020-09-07 09:58:14  
For what it's worth, here's what the jp wiki says on the subject of which slows and hastes overwrite each other - http://wiki.ffo.jp/html/4125.html
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By aisukage 2020-09-07 10:35:22  
Shiva.Cziella said: »
Hiep is not french, so you are thinking of someone else, not all moogles come from the same place.

But now i can't stop imagining him with a french accent.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-07 12:44:27  
The only reference I could find is THIS post from myself, which is around one year old, meaning that the WTF-inducing test I read about was earlier than that.

I wonder where it was. I'm 101% sure it was here on FFXIAH and the guy posting the test had a Moogle avatar.
Maybe it was in the SCH thread? Or in some generic thread?
Doesn't seem to be in a thread of its own inside the RDM subforum, unless it's somwhere deep within this very thread.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-09-07 16:02:37  
Asura.Geriond said: »
For a Sequence/KC combo, you probably wouldn't want to use Temper II for the offhand cap reason. As such, a general case would be:

Naegling/Thibron (Temper II): 1.66*0.99 + 1.66*0.95 = ~3.32 attacks/round
Sequence/KClub (no Temper II): 1*0.99 + 3.8*0.95 = ~4.6 attacks/round

That's a ~38.5% difference, but Sequence also has 10 STP included, bringing it up to a ~45% difference assuming around 80-90 STP without Sequence (~44% if Samurai Roll is up). However, you can swap in Sherida/ for the Naegling set, which should bring the difference down a little bit, though I haven't mathed the gear swap effects out.
looks like it would be worth using temper II with kraken offhand
Code
import random
import numpy

qa = 0
ta = 33
da = 0
AM3 = False
fua = 0
kraken_club_eq = True

main_hit_rate = 99
off_hit_rate = 95


def kraken_club():
    kraken_hits = list(range(0, 8))
    kraken_rates = [5, 15, 25, 25, 15, 10, 3, 2]

    result = random.choices(kraken_hits, kraken_rates, k=1)

    return result[0]


def melee_round(qa_rate, ta_rate, da_rate, AM3, fua_rate, kraken, hit_rate_main, hit_rate_off):
    main_hit = 1
    off_hit = 1

    main_post_acc = 0
    off_post_acc = 0

    if random.random() < qa_rate / 100:
        main_hit += 3
    elif random.random() < ta_rate / 100:
        main_hit += 2
    elif random.random() < da_rate / 100:
        main_hit += 1
    elif AM3 and random.random() < 0.6:
        if random.random() < 1 / 3:
            main_hit += 2
        else:
            main_hit += 1

    if random.random() < fua_rate / 100:
        main_hit += 1

    if random.random() < qa_rate / 100:
        off_hit += 3
    elif random.random() < ta_rate / 100:
        off_hit += 2
    elif random.random() < da_rate / 100:
        off_hit += 1
    elif kraken:
        off_hit += kraken_club()

    off_hit = min(8 - main_hit, off_hit)

    hit_rate_main = max(hit_rate_main, 20)
    hit_rate_off = max(hit_rate_off, 20)

    for _ in range(main_hit):
        if random.random() < hit_rate_main / 100:
            main_post_acc += 1

    for _ in range(off_hit):
        if random.random() < hit_rate_off / 100:
            off_post_acc += 1

    return main_post_acc + off_post_acc


def average_hits():
    hits = []
    for _ in range(10000):
        hits.append(melee_round(qa, ta, da, AM3, fua,
                                kraken_club_eq, main_hit_rate, off_hit_rate))

    print(numpy.average(hits))


average_hits()
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-09-07 20:19:18  
Ah, well that's an even bigger TP gain difference than I thought (~53% with samurai roll).
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By Argisto 2020-09-08 00:26:58  
Working on the spells section of the rdm guide and was wondering if anyone could confirm Break's base duration for me? I'm getting 50 seconds using in game timers (no enf duration gear or merits). BG and the old guide both missing Break's duration time.
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2020-09-08 01:35:11  
Argisto said: »
Working on the spells section of the rdm guide and was wondering if anyone could confirm Break's base duration for me? I'm getting 50 seconds using in game timers (no enf duration gear or merits). BG and the old guide both missing Break's duration time.
Should be 30 seconds. I'm assuming you have 20/20 Enfeebling Magic Duration JPs to get 50s.
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By Argisto 2020-09-08 01:44:57  
Asura.Chiaia said: »
Argisto said: »
Working on the spells section of the rdm guide and was wondering if anyone could confirm Break's base duration for me? I'm getting 50 seconds using in game timers (no enf duration gear or merits). BG and the old guide both missing Break's duration time.
Should be 30 seconds. I'm assuming you have 20/20 Enfeebling Magic Duration JPs to get 50s.

Thank you! and yes, sorry, forgot to specify mastered RDM as well
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-08 01:54:26  
Asura.Sechs said: »
I think the guy I was talking about might have been Hiep but I'm not 100% sure.
Could be worth asking him!
Finished searching this thread.
The test about Haste/Skill was not in here.
Gonna send a PM to Hiep to see if it was him.

I'll search the other RDM thread then the SCH thread, got no clue where else to search for. Good luck if it was a random thread...
Pretty confident it was *not* in the WHM subforum because I don't really read that forum much, if at all.


Edit:
Searched the old RDM thread too, wasn't in there either.
Not 100% sure but I have good reasons to think this "test" I'm talking about has been posted on FFXIAH between October 2016 and September 2019.

Edit2:
Not in the SCH thread either :<
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By LightningHelix 2020-09-08 07:16:06  
How do the Vitiation +1 augments work if you have no merits in that category? (Alternative info I'd settle for is just "lol how I merit group 2")
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-08 07:20:49  
Not sure what you're asking about.
If you don't have at least 1 merit in a category, the relative augment will simply do nothing. It's as simple as that.
It gives a bonus for each point spent in the related merit category (only obvious exception being the SP1 enhancing augment)

As for which Cat2 merits to go for, it depends on your playstyle and personal preference. If you ask me, they're all good in their own way.

If you have a Crocea Mors getting 5/5 into the enspell damage is a no brainer imho.


Personally I have 5/5 into Enhancing Duration and 5/5 into Macc, which goes along well if you use Relic+3 hat for debuffing.
The worst category of the 6 is, imho, the physical accuracy one.
RDM doesn't really need that much accuracy imho, not when you have so many other good options to choose from at least.
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By Lili 2020-09-08 07:23:18  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Not 100% sure but I have good reasons to think this "test" I'm talking about has been posted on FFXIAH between October 2016 and September 2019.

I came back to the game in December 2017, after quitting in 2005, and I also clearly remember this skill-based overwriting of haste and slow. I have no idea where I heard this from initially, but I've read it at least twice and it's been repeated to me at least once by somebody else too.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-09-08 07:25:31  
Red Mages should be switching around their category 2 merits based on what they're doing. Even for people with Crocea, swapping out enspell merits for something more useful for the content you're currently doing is often the best choice.

Need to land long sleeps/binds for Ambuscade? Enfeebling duration.

Doing a lot of Majus? Immunobreak chance.

Want to melee evasive things with Thibron or Kraken Club offhand without having to spend the time to Distract every single enemy? Physical accuracy.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-08 07:35:59  
Lili said: »
I have no idea where I heard this from initially, but I've read it at least twice and it's been repeated to me at least once by somebody else too.
Gdi finally someone that remembers it.
I know for sure when I read this test was super surprised that only a small amount of people participated in the discussion and took the test for granted.
I was pretty shocked and puzzled by the test itself.

I would love to go and re-read it now but I can't bloody find it anymore ><

FFXIAH forum search tool isn't exactely the most performant. Not sure if Rooks has admin-only tools that would allow for more advanced searches through the FFXIAH forum database.
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By Ragnarok.Lowen 2020-09-08 09:35:25  
To swerve a little bit from the current topic, I've been working on my melee gear recently, and having now amassed a combination of Naegling/Crocea/Thibron/Tauret/Daybreak, I'm trying to figure out when to use each weapon/which situations are best for which weaponskills. Most of my meleeing right now is happening in Dyna D wave 2/3 right now, but I'm still trying to figure out when I should be using Sanguine vs Seraph, for instance.

Edit: Also working on getting another pulse weapon so I can finish Maxentius, and I have no idea when to use Black Halo.
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By Crossbones 2020-09-08 09:52:59  
I have quite a few weapon combo toggles but it is by no means exhaustive.
Croc/thibron - when I'm at pdif and want to use savage while also enjoying enspell dmg bonus.
Croc/daybreak - magical ws, or open SC and MB
Naeg/thib - self explanatory
Max/thib - when at pdif and I want strongest physical ws or to avoid same ws spam dmg penalty in groups of savage drgs brds and mnks
Daybreak/ammurapi - my max enfeebles set (staves can get ***)
Tauret / daybreak - aeolian edge

If I ever made almace I'd make a set with that and ternion but I just don't use cdc that often. Also gotta have double lvl 1 daggers for enspell memery of course.

In wave 1/2 I usually use naeg/thib since there's usually a damage penalty of some kind, in jeuno or bastok I'll mainhand crocea unless I need more attack. For wave 3 it's croc/daybreak for NMs and tauret for trash packs until only NMs are left. I only use seraph at or above 2k tp and it can cap dmg pretty regularly (we always have bog bubbles up). When seraph dmg starts to dip or when rayke / gambit is on I spam sanguine. Depends how many other rdm are with me in the pt, usually there's two and that might change things up a bit, maybe one will always do seraph and the other sanguine, even aeolian dmg can be decent at high tp in case there's a third rdm.
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By LightningHelix 2020-09-08 16:46:59  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Not sure what you're asking about.
If you don't have at least 1 merit in a category, the relative augment will simply do nothing. It's as simple as that.
It gives a bonus for each point spent in the related merit category (only obvious exception being the SP1 enhancing augment)
This was the exact thing I was asking about - whether there was a "floor" for 0 merits that was not 0 effect, basically.

Quote:
As for which Cat2 merits to go for, it depends on your playstyle and personal preference. If you ask me, they're all good in their own way.

If you have a Crocea Mors getting 5/5 into the enspell damage is a no brainer imho.


Personally I have 5/5 into Enhancing Duration and 5/5 into Macc, which goes along well if you use Relic+3 hat for debuffing.
The worst category of the 6 is, imho, the physical accuracy one.
RDM doesn't really need that much accuracy imho, not when you have so many other good options to choose from at least.
Agree that phys acc seems awful when the other options are so good, someday I'll own a Crocea, but I'll play it by ear until then. Merits aren't hard to come by, really. Thanks, everyone.
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-09-08 18:57:55  
How does Naegling Savage Blade and Maxentius Black Halo compare? They seem to be very similar when you count Maxentius's damage +50%.
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By Lili 2020-09-08 19:20:49  
Asura.Geriond said: »
How does Naegling Savage Blade and Maxentius Black Halo compare? They seem to be very similar when you count Maxentius's damage +50%.

At attack cap, Maxentius wins by a decent bit due to the +50% wsdmg, and the fact that it lets you leverage Gain-MND (that you want for enfeebs) more than Savage Blade does. Under attack cap, Naegling special attack bonus is huge, especially on a job like RDM that can pile buffs upon buffs to exploit it fully.
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By Argisto 2020-09-09 22:23:22  
Does anyone know of any testing done or have a link handy for Tier II Enspell elemental resistance down effet? Mostly just curious about how it works.
 Sylph.Brahmsz
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2020-09-10 00:38:16  
Argisto said: »
Does anyone know of any testing done or have a link handy for Tier II Enspell elemental resistance down effet? Mostly just curious about how it works.
Old wiki states Tier II enpells give -10 Magic Evasion to the element they are weak against.
 Sylph.Khirali
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By Sylph.Khirali 2020-09-10 00:45:49  
Asura.Geriond said: »
How does Naegling Savage Blade and Maxentius Black Halo compare? They seem to be very similar when you count Maxentius's damage +50%.
Whhhhat are you fighting against?
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By Chimerawizard 2020-09-10 01:35:37  
damn, i don't wanna get it just for enfeebles. why couldn't it have been a BLM~SCH MB staff replacement instead.
I'm still going to get it though
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-10 01:59:04  
It's so hot for Frazzle/Distract, gonna replace my old Grioavolr with Macc+28, MND+8 and Enf+16.

Wonder if I still have a Contemplator somewhere on my mule, else it's gonna be a super pain to farm one, sigh.
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