WAR won't beat THF. Erinys takes additional damage from piercing, gets to WS for full damage twice as frequently due to Trick Attack, and gets massive WS DMG boosts thanks to Fussetto +2 offhand.
For reference, My Rudra's Storms would do 33k on average with BoG Frailty, Fury, dia2, Chaos Roll, and Indi-DEX with a Shijo mainhand and fairly good WS gear. During Lucid Wing rotations, my SA+TA timers weren't nearly fast enough to keep up with the TP gain, and after wing spam I was decently ahead, but SA alone even with SA timer merits wouldn't have been enough to keep up with the auto-regain from Tactician's Roll (I've since then added Opo-Opo Necklace and Roller's Ring, which should put me at >1000 TP/tic with Crooked Cards.)
Post Aeneas, Rudra's does 41k+ minimum. I can't see anything touching that.
Reisenjima T4s
Reisenjima T4s
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
WAR won't beat THF. Erinys takes additional damage from piercing, gets to WS for full damage twice as frequently due to Trick Attack, and gets massive WS DMG boosts thanks to Fussetto +2 offhand.
For reference, My Rudra's Storms would do 33k on average with BoG Frailty, Fury, dia2, Chaos Roll, and Indi-DEX with a Shijo mainhand and fairly good WS gear. During Lucid Wing rotations, my SA+TA timers weren't nearly fast enough to keep up with the TP gain, and after wing spam I was decently ahead, but SA alone even with SA timer merits wouldn't have been enough to keep up with the auto-regain from Tactician's Roll (I've since then added Opo-Opo Necklace and Roller's Ring, which should put me at >1000 TP/tic with Crooked Cards.)
Post Aeneas, Rudra's does 41k+ minimum. I can't see anything touching that.
For reference, My Rudra's Storms would do 33k on average with BoG Frailty, Fury, dia2, Chaos Roll, and Indi-DEX with a Shijo mainhand and fairly good WS gear. During Lucid Wing rotations, my SA+TA timers weren't nearly fast enough to keep up with the TP gain, and after wing spam I was decently ahead, but SA alone even with SA timer merits wouldn't have been enough to keep up with the auto-regain from Tactician's Roll (I've since then added Opo-Opo Necklace and Roller's Ring, which should put me at >1000 TP/tic with Crooked Cards.)
Post Aeneas, Rudra's does 41k+ minimum. I can't see anything touching that.
Erinys was our last kill for aeonic, our thieves did easy 40k+, 64k during bolster...for reference drg never did 20k.
Doing some calcs for TP gain and THFs don't get to WS 2x as often, they simply don't get TP fast enough to do so. To get 1000TP in 60s you need 50TP/ tick which isn't that hard with Tact and sleep potions. To get 1000 in 51s (17 ticks) you need 59~60 TP/tick, again not a problem. To get 2000 in 60s you would need 100TP/tick, and to get 2000TP in 51s you would need 118TP/tick which becomes a much bigger issue. Crooked Perfect Tact is 60TP/tick, Opo-opo is 25, ring is 10, so cap of 95Tp/tick. SCH for Adloqium is 10TP/tick, but that kinds seems a waste of a slot just for that. If the THF was getting sufficient TP back from WS then it could make up the short fall but you'd be really tight on timers.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
Quote:
Erinys was our last kill for aeonic, our thieves did easy 40k+, 64k during bolster...for reference drg never did 20k.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
He used camlan but he was there for angon.
I did notice that when we went to go do Teles, that Clarsach??? was being a bit weird.
We where running out of range when auras where popping (Apart from the Magic Def Down Aura), that when we where running out of range, if it used Clarsach on the tanks, it would hit the mages if there where on a slightly more elevated plane, this actually killed several of out black mages. (It was 100% not the aura that was killing).
With the positioning that in most of the video kills of Teles, just running straight backwards to the grassy area from the (If teles was on the hill party on the road, then 30" was on the grass behind, at #2). Clarsach was able to hit on the grass behind sometimes, despite that being 30" away and elevated.
So just a little warning from that.
I'm not 100% sure though if it was Clarsach, or another abillity, but whatever it was, it was killing during aura was up, because it was hitting some mages on the grass, as im assuming Height difference was not enough. allowing it to hit, regardless of actual distance away from Teles.
So just be careful, if you want to be 100% safe, start running down the path instead of running to the grass behind.
We where running out of range when auras where popping (Apart from the Magic Def Down Aura), that when we where running out of range, if it used Clarsach on the tanks, it would hit the mages if there where on a slightly more elevated plane, this actually killed several of out black mages. (It was 100% not the aura that was killing).
With the positioning that in most of the video kills of Teles, just running straight backwards to the grassy area from the (If teles was on the hill party on the road, then 30" was on the grass behind, at #2). Clarsach was able to hit on the grass behind sometimes, despite that being 30" away and elevated.
So just a little warning from that.
I'm not 100% sure though if it was Clarsach, or another abillity, but whatever it was, it was killing during aura was up, because it was hitting some mages on the grass, as im assuming Height difference was not enough. allowing it to hit, regardless of actual distance away from Teles.
So just be careful, if you want to be 100% safe, start running down the path instead of running to the grass behind.
Congrats to all the people slowly finishing the HELM NMs !
[+]
Asura.Saevel said: »
Doing some calcs for TP gain and THFs don't get to WS 2x as often, they simply don't get TP fast enough to do so. To get 1000TP in 60s you need 50TP/ tick which isn't that hard with Tact and sleep potions. To get 1000 in 51s (17 ticks) you need 59~60 TP/tick, again not a problem. To get 2000 in 60s you would need 100TP/tick, and to get 2000TP in 51s you would need 118TP/tick which becomes a much bigger issue. Crooked Perfect Tact is 60TP/tick, Opo-opo is 25, ring is 10, so cap of 95Tp/tick. SCH for Adloqium is 10TP/tick, but that kinds seems a waste of a slot just for that. If the THF was getting sufficient TP back from WS then it could make up the short fall but you'd be really tight on timers.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
Quote:
Erinys was our last kill for aeonic, our thieves did easy 40k+, 64k during bolster...for reference drg never did 20k.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
You are overlooking Lucid Wings. I think Erinys was at 25% or less by the time we got through just one party's set of wings (we didn't bother rotating anybody in.) Aeneas + Magian + Moonshade = TP Bonus +1750. Our last fight was less than 8.5 minutes using 3 THFs and we didn't even use Bolster. A walmart THF is going to win even the most decked out WAR.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Doing some calcs for TP gain and THFs don't get to WS 2x as often, they simply don't get TP fast enough to do so. To get 1000TP in 60s you need 50TP/ tick which isn't that hard with Tact and sleep potions. To get 1000 in 51s (17 ticks) you need 59~60 TP/tick, again not a problem. To get 2000 in 60s you would need 100TP/tick, and to get 2000TP in 51s you would need 118TP/tick which becomes a much bigger issue. Crooked Perfect Tact is 60TP/tick, Opo-opo is 25, ring is 10, so cap of 95Tp/tick. SCH for Adloqium is 10TP/tick, but that kinds seems a waste of a slot just for that. If the THF was getting sufficient TP back from WS then it could make up the short fall but you'd be really tight on timers.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
Quote:
Erinys was our last kill for aeonic, our thieves did easy 40k+, 64k during bolster...for reference drg never did 20k.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
You are overlooking Lucid Wings. I think Erinys was at 25% or less by the time we got through just one party's set of wings (we didn't bother rotating anybody in.) Aeneas + Magian + Moonshade = TP Bonus +1750. Our last fight was less than 8.5 minutes using 3 THFs and we didn't even use Bolster. A walmart THF is going to win even the most decked out WAR.
You don't even really need wings. THF/COR can get over 500tp per quickdraw.
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Doing some calcs for TP gain and THFs don't get to WS 2x as often, they simply don't get TP fast enough to do so. To get 1000TP in 60s you need 50TP/ tick which isn't that hard with Tact and sleep potions. To get 1000 in 51s (17 ticks) you need 59~60 TP/tick, again not a problem. To get 2000 in 60s you would need 100TP/tick, and to get 2000TP in 51s you would need 118TP/tick which becomes a much bigger issue. Crooked Perfect Tact is 60TP/tick, Opo-opo is 25, ring is 10, so cap of 95Tp/tick. SCH for Adloqium is 10TP/tick, but that kinds seems a waste of a slot just for that. If the THF was getting sufficient TP back from WS then it could make up the short fall but you'd be really tight on timers.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
Quote:
Erinys was our last kill for aeonic, our thieves did easy 40k+, 64k during bolster...for reference drg never did 20k.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
You are overlooking Lucid Wings. I think Erinys was at 25% or less by the time we got through just one party's set of wings (we didn't bother rotating anybody in.) Aeneas + Magian + Moonshade = TP Bonus +1750. Our last fight was less than 8.5 minutes using 3 THFs and we didn't even use Bolster. A walmart THF is going to win even the most decked out WAR.
You don't even really need wings. THF/COR can get over 500tp per quickdraw.
QD recast isn't fast enough to keep up with 50 second SATA timers.
He probably means in addition to tactician roll, you don't need wings if you setup quickdraw for TP gain on THF/COR. I mean, that's how it makes sense of what he said right?
I'm sure that's what he meant, my point still remains though. The goal isn't just to WS once every 25 seconds, you want to try and cap fTP too.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Doing some calcs for TP gain and THFs don't get to WS 2x as often, they simply don't get TP fast enough to do so. To get 1000TP in 60s you need 50TP/ tick which isn't that hard with Tact and sleep potions. To get 1000 in 51s (17 ticks) you need 59~60 TP/tick, again not a problem. To get 2000 in 60s you would need 100TP/tick, and to get 2000TP in 51s you would need 118TP/tick which becomes a much bigger issue. Crooked Perfect Tact is 60TP/tick, Opo-opo is 25, ring is 10, so cap of 95Tp/tick. SCH for Adloqium is 10TP/tick, but that kinds seems a waste of a slot just for that. If the THF was getting sufficient TP back from WS then it could make up the short fall but you'd be really tight on timers.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
WAR would only WS once every 60s due to SA timers though it has more then sufficient TP generation. 83 TP/tick is easily attainable with just regular perfect tact roll. 1660TP in 60s, plus Fencer which adds another ~1000TP bonus. Using the same buff rotation as above caps TP generation. Essentially every WS would be a ~3000TP Crit Savage blade with WAR's metric ***ton of +WSD and +CHD stacking on it.
So while a pimped THF would definitely do more then a pimped WAR, the total difference should be in the 30~50% range and not double. Anyhow seeing the people who beat this did it without stacking up on super THF's then it's not going to be a make or break requirement.
Quote:
Erinys was our last kill for aeonic, our thieves did easy 40k+, 64k during bolster...for reference drg never did 20k.
What in gods name would a DRG be using in that fight? None of their WS's are high fTP single hit attacks that would stack well with this kind of fight.
You are overlooking Lucid Wings. I think Erinys was at 25% or less by the time we got through just one party's set of wings (we didn't bother rotating anybody in.)
You can't expect an Aeonic as standard for a fight required to get Aeonics. So you are really at 1250 TP Bonus.
I'm pretty sure a decked out WAR would beat a walmart THF thought a decked out THF beats everyone. My point was the difference was much less then the original poster stated.
I don't expect Aeonic. A good Skinflayer can actually beat Aeneas. High DMG and DEX augments can result in a greater weaponskill base damage and you can get WSD or Crit Damage augments too. You're then left to get at least 1750 TP for every weaponskill to cap f TP. A Store TP build of 70 (easy to obtain), Samurai's Roll (40), and Store TP II (15) leaves you at 125 Store TP. Lucid Wings II will give you 2250 TP under these conditions, so you're already done for half of your wings. Lucid Wings I will give you 1150 TP. You can get the remaining 600 TP in 7 sticks (21 seconds) with 95 TP/tick regain. This is fast enough to saturate SATA timers with full merits.
In regards to WAR vs THF, it's not even close. Savage Blade has split mods that are difficult to gear for. Buffing is also suboptimal for the this reason and made worse that you must choose between WAR or THF buffs if you've got a mixture of DD. Rudra's also has an innate 25% damage bonus. I don't doubt that Savage Blade will do decent damage, but it's not going to do more than Rudra's. If you're doing the fight right (a good wing rotation), you should see twice as many Rudra's as Savage Blades.
In regards to WAR vs THF, it's not even close. Savage Blade has split mods that are difficult to gear for. Buffing is also suboptimal for the this reason and made worse that you must choose between WAR or THF buffs if you've got a mixture of DD. Rudra's also has an innate 25% damage bonus. I don't doubt that Savage Blade will do decent damage, but it's not going to do more than Rudra's. If you're doing the fight right (a good wing rotation), you should see twice as many Rudra's as Savage Blades.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
In regards to WAR vs THF, it's not even close. Savage Blade has split mods that are difficult to gear for. Buffing is also suboptimal for the this reason and made worse that you must choose between WAR or THF buffs if you've got a mixture of DD
Huh what? There is no such thing as "WAR buffs" or "THF buffs", you get the same. The original poster claimed Chaos + Tact roll, which is what I operated under. If your experiencing a huge damage increase with bolster frailty then you are no where near close to capping pDiff and thus chaos would be better then samurai's. I guess you are referring to Boost-Dex / Entrust Indi-DEX? Why is there a WHM in the melee party in a fight where melee's won't be taking damage? Entrust Indi-DEX is only +25 STR. Or are you doing this fight with more then one GEO for the melee's? STR also boost's your WS damage via fSTR, so you can treat it as a 25% WS mod for gearing purposes along with some small amount of attack.
As for Savage vs Rudras, they are about the same. WAR itself gets ridiculous amounts of TP Bonus along with WSD and CHD. STR is a better mod then DEX due to fSTR and you not needing accuracy or critical hit rate. Look up WAR's gifts to get an idea along with what a Fencer build looks like with Kirin Sword and Blurred Shield +1.
I've looked over the math and it's not nearly as one sided as your making it out to be. Your relying on infinite wings throughout the entire fight to give you 3000TP WS's every 25s, which is true early on but not true once those run out at the halfway mark. You also rely on a robot playing your character and getting perfect alignment and using JA exactly as the timer hits 0.
So while I do agree that a super THF will easily beat a super WAR, a thrown-together THF will lose to the same super WAR. This distinction is important because this fight doesn't drop anything good, it's purely done for aeonic access. Gearing a THF from the ground up, making that magian dagger, would be a waste of someone's time if they already have a powerful fencer WAR setup, or even BLU (with the same magian sword). The point of this discussion isn't about which job is absolutely better so you can put your bias away, but rather should someone who already has an extremely well geared WAR (billions of gil worth of gear, 2100JP, nearly all HQ options, ect..) bother throwing together a town geared THF just to get a win for his Aeonic GAXE.
Boost-DEX
Geo/Indi-DEX
Dex Etudes
I'm not relying on the assumption of infinite wings. Maybe you missed it before but we did this fight in just over 8 minutes without using Bolster. We didn't get through our Lucid Wings until it was already below 25% HP (and at some point remembered we hadn't used Deadalus Wings.) We could have done the entire fight using wings if we would have swapped just two people in the ally to wing us. Riding SATA timers is not hard either. You can use Sneak Attack/Trick Attack before you have TP as the buffs don't wear off for a minute, there is plenty of lee-way. You don't need to be a robot to do it.
A THF with mediocre gear and some idea of how to play is going to wreck even the best geared WAR. It's not time consuming or difficult to gear THF. You don't need any JP and if you have BLU or NIN geared chances are you are mostly done. If you don't want to gear THF, by all means use WAR, but the notion that a WAR can even compete with THF for this application is simply false.
Geo/Indi-DEX
Dex Etudes
I'm not relying on the assumption of infinite wings. Maybe you missed it before but we did this fight in just over 8 minutes without using Bolster. We didn't get through our Lucid Wings until it was already below 25% HP (and at some point remembered we hadn't used Deadalus Wings.) We could have done the entire fight using wings if we would have swapped just two people in the ally to wing us. Riding SATA timers is not hard either. You can use Sneak Attack/Trick Attack before you have TP as the buffs don't wear off for a minute, there is plenty of lee-way. You don't need to be a robot to do it.
A THF with mediocre gear and some idea of how to play is going to wreck even the best geared WAR. It's not time consuming or difficult to gear THF. You don't need any JP and if you have BLU or NIN geared chances are you are mostly done. If you don't want to gear THF, by all means use WAR, but the notion that a WAR can even compete with THF for this application is simply false.
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
A THF with mediocre gear and some idea of how to play is going to wreck even the best geared WAR. It's not time consuming or difficult to gear THF. You don't need any JP and if you have BLU or NIN geared chances are you are mostly done. If you don't want to gear THF, by all means use WAR, but the notion that a WAR can even compete with THF for this application is simply false.
No.
You are being extremely biased by downplaying the mechanics involved. The only THF's I know who even have that magian dagger are the hard core ones that I already admitted would easily beat me. Walmart THF's won't have that, but I assumed they would when doing the analysis. You are making a ***ton of assumptions and altering definitions to be contrarian and "win" an internet fight for your home team. That is both unnecessary and the exact kind of arguments that serve zero purpose.
And yes JP matters, if you don't understand why then you don't belong in this discussion.
Still stuck with Schah, we got to kill all adds except for mantri, had about 15+mins. Schah seem to be taking around 40-60k death dmg only. Do we need to take down mantri as well to get the full damage?
Our 0 JP THFs say otherwise, but anyway.
No, Mantri does not need to be killed to obtain full damage on Schah. I had no issues doing 99,999 without bolster. We plan on testing to see if the initial claim of Schah not taking any DMG without killing adds is false or not sometime within the next week. If Schah takes damage from the start then you can most likely kill it before it even gets 6-7 adds out which makes the fight several orders of magnitude easier.
As an aside, 15 minutes seems kind of early. We thought the same around the 15 minute mark, but it kept spawning Bhata eventually (maybe like 1.5-2min each instead of 30 seconds) so that may have to do with it? Although going by what you said it sounds like you timed out, so that may not be the case
No, Mantri does not need to be killed to obtain full damage on Schah. I had no issues doing 99,999 without bolster. We plan on testing to see if the initial claim of Schah not taking any DMG without killing adds is false or not sometime within the next week. If Schah takes damage from the start then you can most likely kill it before it even gets 6-7 adds out which makes the fight several orders of magnitude easier.
As an aside, 15 minutes seems kind of early. We thought the same around the 15 minute mark, but it kept spawning Bhata eventually (maybe like 1.5-2min each instead of 30 seconds) so that may have to do with it? Although going by what you said it sounds like you timed out, so that may not be the case
Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
A THF with mediocre gear and some idea of how to play is going to wreck even the best geared WAR. It's not time consuming or difficult to gear THF. You don't need any JP and if you have BLU or NIN geared chances are you are mostly done. If you don't want to gear THF, by all means use WAR, but the notion that a WAR can even compete with THF for this application is simply false.
No.
You are being extremely biased by downplaying the mechanics involved. The only THF's I know who even have that magian dagger are the hard core ones that I already admitted would easily beat me. Walmart THF's won't have that, but I assumed they would when doing the analysis. You are making a ***ton of assumptions and altering definitions to be contrarian and "win" an internet fight for your home team.
And yes JP matters, if you don't understand why then you don't belong in this discussion.
All of our THFs made magian daggers for this fight. You only need to get a Fusetto +2 for TP Bonus +1000. It takes a few hours but it's worth doing. If you think that's too much effort for a HELM fight you should reconsider doing Aeonics. I've you've got something interesting to say about job points, please enlighten us. At 45 job points, I've got the most of the 3 THF we've been using.
I'm not making unfair assumptions, I have done the fight three times now. We have tried using WAR, it's not a close competition unless you are doing something wrong.
And now your not even reading what I write in your haste to "win".
So *click* problem solved.
So *click* problem solved.
saevel strikes again lmao. keep your garbage out of my thread thx
[+]
Asura.Saevel said: »
And now your not even reading what I write in your haste to "win".
So *click* problem solved.
So *click* problem solved.
I think what is clear is that you're actually trying to justify using your WAR. If you want to use your WAR, go ahead, nobody is gonna stop you. Don't spread misinformation in the process though.
[+]
This entire argument is completely ridiculous if the main basis of comparison is someone who is either new or does care about their job vs. career players... What does that even prove? Point of the matter is that a good thief will beat a good warrior... Doesn't stop someone from coming WAR but arguing otherwise is idiotic.
Pretty sure I could spend a couple days gearing up a 0 JP THF and outparse a decked WAR with it, so it's not even really about a "good" THF. Fusetto +2 hardly marks a "hardcore" THF either, it's an otherwise long-dead weapon that only takes a few hours to make. It's not so much something I'd expect a serious THF to carry as it is something I'd expect to have on hand for this specific fight. That's really the whole setup in a nutshell: the point at which THF starts to (convincingly) beat any and all other options for this fight is rather low.
A well geared WAR is "good enough", but it still can't hold a candle to THF here.
A well geared WAR is "good enough", but it still can't hold a candle to THF here.
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Our 0 JP THFs say otherwise, but anyway.
No, Mantri does not need to be killed to obtain full damage on Schah. I had no issues doing 99,999 without bolster. We plan on testing to see if the initial claim of Schah not taking any DMG without killing adds is false or not sometime within the next week. If Schah takes damage from the start then you can most likely kill it before it even gets 6-7 adds out which makes the fight several orders of magnitude easier.
As an aside, 15 minutes seems kind of early. We thought the same around the 15 minute mark, but it kept spawning Bhata eventually (maybe like 1.5-2min each instead of 30 seconds) so that may have to do with it? Although going by what you said it sounds like you timed out, so that may not be the case
No, Mantri does not need to be killed to obtain full damage on Schah. I had no issues doing 99,999 without bolster. We plan on testing to see if the initial claim of Schah not taking any DMG without killing adds is false or not sometime within the next week. If Schah takes damage from the start then you can most likely kill it before it even gets 6-7 adds out which makes the fight several orders of magnitude easier.
As an aside, 15 minutes seems kind of early. We thought the same around the 15 minute mark, but it kept spawning Bhata eventually (maybe like 1.5-2min each instead of 30 seconds) so that may have to do with it? Although going by what you said it sounds like you timed out, so that may not be the case
We did time out, was surprised with low death damage considering we have x2 idris geo. setup was x3blm+x2 geo(idris)+COR , 2nd pt: Pld,whm,schx2,geo.
What do their death sets look like? Was it lights day? Did they forger voidstorm? Were all 3 going at the same time or were they staggered?
I was going to say, if you where ignoring the mantri, but still struggling , there is something wrong with your peoples death sets, or buffs not being applied properly, etc etc.
Where you riding Klaustra? Did you use comet/Impact before deaths to maximize damage etc.
Small things will make the difference.
Where you riding Klaustra? Did you use comet/Impact before deaths to maximize damage etc.
Small things will make the difference.
I did the math for that whole THF vs. War thingy.
I gave the WAR literally the best possible gear, and I gave the THF gear I felt a WAR in the best possible gear could get in a day or two(Modestly augmented Hercs with Adhemar head). 2100 JP on WAR, 0 JP on THF. Because I have no idea how much VIT Enriys has, I just floored fstr, so my numbers will most likely be lower than they should be. That said, I capped pdif(Probably not going to happen outside of Bolster and BoG) since I presume both groups have Idris Geo. Obviously things will drop to lower values over the course of the fight as things change, but the math has to be done in controlled ways , and IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE PERFECT, it's just to get an idea of how things look.
I have the THF doing 12948 more damage per minute vs. the WAR.
The extra base damage from Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is mostly irrelevant considering it's added after http://ftp. What REALLY pushes THF ahead is the same ***everyone else has said. You can do 2 Rudras for every one Savage, and weakness to piercing. If it weren't for the weakness to piercing, they'd actually be about the same.
TLDR: Mathmatically, even a scrub tier THF will do 25% more damage per minute than a god tier WAR. IN A VACUUM UNDER VERY CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES, YMMV.
I gave the WAR literally the best possible gear, and I gave the THF gear I felt a WAR in the best possible gear could get in a day or two(Modestly augmented Hercs with Adhemar head). 2100 JP on WAR, 0 JP on THF. Because I have no idea how much VIT Enriys has, I just floored fstr, so my numbers will most likely be lower than they should be. That said, I capped pdif(Probably not going to happen outside of Bolster and BoG) since I presume both groups have Idris Geo. Obviously things will drop to lower values over the course of the fight as things change, but the math has to be done in controlled ways , and IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE PERFECT, it's just to get an idea of how things look.
I have the THF doing 12948 more damage per minute vs. the WAR.
The extra base damage from Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is mostly irrelevant considering it's added after http://ftp. What REALLY pushes THF ahead is the same ***everyone else has said. You can do 2 Rudras for every one Savage, and weakness to piercing. If it weren't for the weakness to piercing, they'd actually be about the same.
TLDR: Mathmatically, even a scrub tier THF will do 25% more damage per minute than a god tier WAR. IN A VACUUM UNDER VERY CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES, YMMV.
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Double post to bump and add a question.
Does anyone know if the banish line of spells will reduce the DT of Vinipata? He's technically undead and I imagine those are considered special DT amounts, so logic wise I feel it should work. He also drops a hat that increases banish potency. My LS was planning to fight him tonight and I found myself wondering about this.
Also worth mentioning, has anyone tried to use Rangers against the Amphiptere? He takes extra damage from piercing, his wind aura wouldn't mess up rangers, he has high mdt or something to discourage nuking and he drops ranger gear. I think we can all agree the way we are killing him now is probably not the intended way to kill him. Just curious if anyone has tried.
Edit: Having done the Amphi with just Beastmasters dealing damage, his evasion isn't really that bad tbh. About on par with Teles I think? His Wind Aura can also be avoided if you stand inside him.
Does anyone know if the banish line of spells will reduce the DT of Vinipata? He's technically undead and I imagine those are considered special DT amounts, so logic wise I feel it should work. He also drops a hat that increases banish potency. My LS was planning to fight him tonight and I found myself wondering about this.
Also worth mentioning, has anyone tried to use Rangers against the Amphiptere? He takes extra damage from piercing, his wind aura wouldn't mess up rangers, he has high mdt or something to discourage nuking and he drops ranger gear. I think we can all agree the way we are killing him now is probably not the intended way to kill him. Just curious if anyone has tried.
Edit: Having done the Amphi with just Beastmasters dealing damage, his evasion isn't really that bad tbh. About on par with Teles I think? His Wind Aura can also be avoided if you stand inside him.
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