~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~

Nariont

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By Nariont 2020-08-06 07:59:00

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Mobs atleast can guard ws, id assume players can guard the same.

SimonSes

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By SimonSes 2020-08-06 10:47:22

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Player can guard tp moves but I think its simple -1.0 pdif effect, while shield block is much better, because it blocks add effects.

Ragnarok.Martel said: »

Parries don't seem to work(for WS) either.

Ok im confused here. You mean that there is no pqcket and you cannoy tell if TP move was parried or that parry foesnt work on tp moves at all. Because the 2nd part would be kinda shocking. I was 100% sure parry works for tp moves and the resut is that you evade everything. Its super easy to test on RUN I guess.

Ragnarok.Martel

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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-08-06 11:16:54

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SimonSes said: »

Player can guard tp moves but I think its simple -1.0 pdif effect, while shield block is much better, because it blocks add effects.

Ragnarok.Martel said: »

Parries don't seem to work(for WS) either.

Ok im confused here. You mean that there is no pqcket and you cannoy tell if TP move was parried or that parry foesnt work on tp moves at all. Because the 2nd part would be kinda shocking. I was 100% sure parry works for tp moves and the resut is that you evade everything. Its super easy to test on RUN I guess.

There's no flag on the packet to tell you if a missed WS was just a miss or due to parry.

I'd thought that would be pretty clear from the context here. But since apparently it wasn't I'm going to restate some of this.

We cannot display parries for parried WS. The packet for a missed WS and a parried one are identical.
We cannot display blocks for counters. They just don't have the block flag.
We can show guard procs on WS, and on guarded regular attacks.

[+]

SimonSes

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By SimonSes 2020-08-06 12:19:28

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Ragnarok.Martel said: »

We cannot display blocks for counters. They just don't have the block flag.

Well you can't counter TP moves, so it would be surprising to have a packet for that :)

Ragnarok.Martel

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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-08-06 12:32:52

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SimonSes said: »

Ragnarok.Martel said: »

We cannot display blocks for counters. They just don't have the block flag.

Well you can't counter TP moves, so it would be surprising to have a packet for that :)

I don't believe I ever said they could. Where did anyone say anything about countering WS?

When a counter procs, the packet doesn't have a block flag. So we can't display blocks on counters. WS do not enter into this at any point.

SimonSes

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By SimonSes 2020-08-06 12:47:10

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Ragnarok.Martel said: »

SimonSes said: »

Ragnarok.Martel said: »

We cannot display blocks for counters. They just don't have the block flag.

Well you can't counter TP moves, so it would be surprising to have a packet for that :)

I don't believe I ever said they could. Where did anyone say anything about countering WS?

When a counter procs, the packet doesn't have a block flag. So we can't display blocks on counters. WS do not enter into this at any point.

I don't think anyone asked about blocks on counters either.
Razziel asking about parry and counter was I think general question about including those new battlemod options to show counters (option for when you counter, not block a counter) and parries. He haven't specified what he is asking about exactly, but Ticktick posting after him I think understood that like me (that he was asking about counters, including counters on WS). Then you quoted my post talking only about things on TP moves and not talking about counter or blocks at all and you commented it with "We cannot display blocks for counters. They just don't have the block flag.", so logically I thought you was talking about counters on TP moves, not blocks on counters.

You probably had blocks on counters in your head from the beginning, but if you read all posts without that thought in your mind, you will notice it was easy to understand we were talking about players countering (at least I was).

Ragnarok.Martel

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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-08-06 13:22:59

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Honestly, reading that just made me even more confused. I think as long as we all understand how the mechanics here work ,then I will just move on.

My take away, I shouldn't try to answer poorly formed and non specific questions. At least not without asking for clarification first. I just went with the only interpretation of the original question I could think of that made any sense.

[+]

SimonSes

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By SimonSes 2020-08-06 14:07:21

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Ragnarok.Martel said: »

Honestly, reading that just made me even more confused. I think as long as we all understand how the mechanics here work ,then I will just move on.

My take away, I shouldn't try to answer poorly formed and non specific questions. At least not without asking for clarification first. I just went with the only interpretation of the original question I could think of that made any sense.

Yeah it didnt have sense if you know counter doesnt work on TP moves, but since its pld thread and Sacro breastplate is still kinda new and not that popular to tank in, I assumed PLD new to counter mechanic might not know :)

Anyway sorry if I was being confusing and/or irritating in some way. Lova Ya Martel <3

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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-08-06 14:41:40

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It's cool. I was getting annoyed over literally nothing. Thank you for the slightly confusing but de-escalating reply earlier. lol.

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Ragnarok.Martel

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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-08-06 15:11:29

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I've been meaning to put together a post on this for a bit, but I keep getting sidetracked or just can't work up the motivation to do anything... But, I'm finally getting some things checked off the list here.

So, more info from the JP side. This time a bit about shield bash dmg.

I've linked this one a few times now. It's just such a huge shield related blog post that there's a lot to go over there. But anyway, this post has some exact info on how shield bash dmg is calculated. See section 3 in the post if you want to try to work through the google translate-ese.

So, this says that shield bash has a base damage of 27(15 if /PLD) and then there is a bonus dmg+ for each shield size.

Size 1: +0
Size 2: +13
Size 3: +40
Size 4: +67
Size 5: +0
Size 6: +0

So you do,

Bash dmg = (base + shieldSizeBonus + jobpoints + BashGear) * randomizer.
The randomizer is a random number between 1.0 and 1.05.

This also says that Aegis 99 is bash+300. Unlike the +250 we have listed.

I did a bit of testing to verify the formula and Aegis bash+ value. I've only tested Ochain and Aegis so far, but the range of results matched perfectly. 62 Ochain samples and 148 Aegis samples.

I'm going to be a bit lazy and just toss a table made from my spreadsheet data in here for the test data.

In retrospect, I really wish I'd used kparser to log the data for this. It would have made for a much cleaner, and shorter, display.

Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Code

+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Shield     | Ochain |       | Shield     | Aegis |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Size       |      6 |       | Size       |     6 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| size bonus |      0 |       | size bonus |     0 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Bash+      |     35 |       | Bash+      |   335 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
|            |        |       |            |       |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| min        |    262 |       | min        |   562 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| max        |    275 |       | max        |   590 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| AVG        |  267.5 |       | AVG        | 574.6 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Calc Base  |    262 | Match | Calc Base  |   562 | Match |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Calc max   |    275 | Match | Calc max   |   590 | Match |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Calc avg   |  268.5 |       | Calc avg   |   576 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| test count |     62 |       | test count |   148 |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
| Observed            |       | Observed           |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
|        274 |        |       |        564 |       |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
|        268 |        |       |        567 |       |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
|        268 |        |       |        570 |       |       |
+------------+--------+-------+------------+-------+-------+
|        267 |        |       |        573 |       |       |
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|        263 |        |       |        579 |       |       |
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|        272 |        |       |        585 |       |       |
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|        263 |        |       |        562 |       |       |
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|        266 |        |       |        571 |       |       |
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|        267 |        |       |        574 |       |       |
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|        266 |        |       |        572 |       |       |
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|        263 |        |       |        573 |       |       |
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|        273 |        |       |        575 |       |       |
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|        271 |        |       |        589 |       |       |
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|        272 |        |       |        562 |       |       |
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|        264 |        |       |        565 |       |       |
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|        269 |        |       |        564 |       |       |
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|        273 |        |       |        588 |       |       |
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|        265 |        |       |        574 |       |       |
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|        263 |        |       |        565 |       |       |
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|        265 |        |       |        565 |       |       |
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|        264 |        |       |        590 |       |       |
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|        269 |        |       |        585 |       |       |
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|        263 |        |       |        578 |       |       |
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|        267 |        |       |        580 |       |       |
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|        265 |        |       |        571 |       |       |
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|        264 |        |       |        563 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        588 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        590 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        570 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        590 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        563 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        586 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        588 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        566 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        564 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        587 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        575 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        565 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        568 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        571 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        579 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        567 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        572 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        581 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        571 |       |       |
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|            |        |       |        577 |       |       |
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[spoiler/]

At some point I should test the other shield sizes, bu tI'm fairly confident they have this all right. At least enough so to update the Aegis value and probably the shield bash page.

[+]

zaxtiss

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By zaxtiss 2020-08-07 18:05:09

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anyone got a sird cure midcast they wouldn't mind sharing?
yes i could dig through all the pages but i don't wanna lol.
please feel free to troll due to that fact!

Ragnarok.Martel

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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-08-07 18:10:55

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https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46016/first-and-final-line-of-defense-v20/79/#3501989. Second set is SIRD. Although that post focuses on high hp sets. If you're looking for regular ones check the sets in my profile.

Shiva.Dayone

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By Shiva.Dayone 2020-08-15 20:13:40

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There was some chat before about MEVA builds which reduce your need for an aegis and the rarity of getting volte gear on PLD.

I'd just like to input that, anecdotally, I don't feel that volte is a replacement for aegis by any means. I say that because, while PLD isn't a main job for me, I do use 5/5 volte on it (or sacro body) and magic dmg still hits hard on higher level mobs.

If you'd like a test, I'm happy to do it, but you could also take away that Volte Haub 5/5 doesn't replace Aegis from one person's personal experience.

It is nice to not whiff every hit though :)

SimonSes

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 02:30:44

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I dont think MEVA would be replacement for Aegis. It more about fights where you would like meva (so debuff heavy), meva would also bring down magic damage to managable level. Sometimes as low as Aegis, sometimes lower and sometimes higher, but still low enough. Also meva set is not based on only volte. Its actually only 3/5 volte.

I would say its something like that:

ItemSet 371361

So you have quite a lot of meva in other slots too.

soralin

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By soralin 2020-08-16 03:04:47

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Moonlight necklace and Flashward earring can boost it a bit higher, I think you top out at around 744 Meva or so? Pretty solid.

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 03:10:34

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The reason for Unmoving and Odnowa there is to be around 3000hp. I didnt want to go much lower than PLD standarts.

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By Asura.Geriond 2020-08-16 07:55:41

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PLD does not have great MEVA gifts, and Volte has lower MEVA compared to the stuff most other jobs get, like Malignance, Turms +1, or Inyanga +2.

Speaking from the perspective of a RUN who tanks with more MEVA than that set, relevant enemies (130+) more often than not have enough magic accuracy to almost always get at least 1/2 landed spells unless you have Focus or Vex support, and there are a good number of fights where thsy'll just have capped magic accuracy regardless of your MEVA set. An MEVA set for Volte jobs is useful sometimes, but it's almost never going to reliably make you 1/4 resist spells to match Aegis's reduction, let alone the 1/8 needed to surpass it. Resisting enfeebles is generally even harder, because partial resisting isn't good enough if it can be cured (doesn't matter if an enfeeble lasts 60 seconds or 30 second if you or your healer is going to cure it in 5-10), and quite a few of the nastier enfeebles (dispel, encumbrance, auras, etc.) are either effectively unresistible or completely unresistible.

MEVA sets are somewhat overrated on thos site, treated as if they'll always make a difference, but quite a few endgame enemies are tuned to have enough MACC that you'll still be floored on MEVA even with max possible MEVA in every slot, making them a straight performance loss if you aren't careful when to use them.

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 08:22:57

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Asura.Geriond said: »

PLD does not have great MEVA gifts, and Volte has lower MEVA compared to the stuff most other jobs get, like Malignance, Turms +1, or Inyanga +2.

Speaking from the perspective of a RUN who tanks with more MEVA than that set, relevant enemies (130+) more often than not have enough magic accuracy to almost always get at least 1/2 landed spells unless you have Focus or Vex support, and there are a good number of fights where thsy'll just have capped magic accuracy regardless of your MEVA set. An MEVA set for Volte jobs is useful sometimes, but it's almost never going to reliably make you 1/4 resist spells to match Aegis's reduction, let alone the 1/8 needed to surpass it. Resisting enfeebles is generally even harder, because partial resisting isn't good enough if it can be cured (doesn't matter if an enfeeble lasts 60 seconds or 30 second if you or your healer is going to cure it in 5-10), and quite a few of the nastier enfeebles (dispel, encumbrance, auras, etc.) are either effectively unresistible or completely unresistible.

MEVA sets are somewhat overrated on thos site, treated as if they'll always make a difference, but quite a few endgame enemies are tuned to have enough MACC that you'll still be floored on MEVA even with max possible MEVA in every slot, making them a straight performance loss if you aren't careful when to use them.

Or you are talking about some high helm tier NMs that none else is talking about when using those sets.

I can only tell you from DD perspective that wearing hybrid meva is set works very well. I can esily resist almost every paralyze from Omen Tigers, every curse, sleep from Omen midbosses and Omen bosses too. Stuff like Interference from Omen Bosses does lol damagae (almost sure its 1/8 resists). Mijin from wave 2 dynamis NINs do like 300 damage and I wouldnt even notice them if half the ally wouldnt drop to red hp or die. You also resist wave 1 boss stuns. You resist all damage AoE and most debuffs in Ambu VD. All that are enemies above 130. I think what you was talking about is more like 145+ stuff, not 130+

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By Asura.Geriond 2020-08-16 08:44:53

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I was thinking of Reisenjima T2s as the lowest end of NMs that have high amounts of MACC, though now that I'm thinking about it, they might be 135 and I misremembered.

Regardless, I've tried out MEVA sets (both Volte DPS and 4/5 Malignance DPS) in Omen and Dynamis Wave 2, and while they do have a noticeable effect there, it's not even close to reliable on the NMs, and even wave 2 ninjas do their full OHKO damage a decent amount of the time. These instances fall into the occasions I mentioned of this type of set sometimes being useful.

However, there's still lots of content that just has craploads of MACC that isn't 145+; most (all?) VD Ambuscades, D/VD HTBFs (or even lower difficulties for the Selbina ones), Wave 2 boss/Wave 3 fodder and NMs in Dynamis, Reisenjima T2/3, Odyssey beastmen and NMs, a bunch of unity NMs (like Carousing Celine who lands everything with Bad Breath every time she uses it even with better MEVA than that set above), Outer/Inner Ra'kaznar Apex, etc.

Also, people were definitely talking about using these sets on the highest enemies; the original topic was whether you could completely replace Aegis with a MEVA set on PLD.

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 09:30:46

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Asura.Geriond said: »

Also, people were definitely talking about using these sets on the highest enemies; the original topic was whether you could completely replace Aegis with a MEVA set on PLD.

I might be wrong, but I think MEVA set discussion was started by me on page 78 a d I said nothing about replacing Aegis.

Also I think its more of "Can meva set be used to resist debuffs AND still provide enough resist to magic damage to survive without Aegis" its not about using meva set for magic damage only as replacement for Aegis.

Im pretty sure in majority of fights you can easily ignore Aegis with meva set, but there is no point in not using Aegis when main treat of the fight is magic damage that cant be resisted.

I have never been hit by even 50% damage mijin from wave 2 NMs. Its always at least 1/4 resist unless you are simply unlucky (I think you can push meva only to 95%, so it always possible to get hit with full damage right?)

Using hybrid meva on my thf blocks 95% of doom from wave 2 yagudo for example. Very often completely blocks stun from their tp move too. Blocks debuffs and gives 1/2 to 1/8 resists to aoe magic damage in many VD Ambu. There is tons of places where meva set on PLD would be very useful (like mentioned above dynamis scenario where you are against constant string of stuns or doom), but its not meant to be used everywhere.

Ofc debuffs like charm has usually way higher macc, so you probably wont resist them and some NMs are just made with super high macc because landing debuffs is their signeture move.

There are also situations where you are getting geo and whm support to resist debuffs from higher macc enemies and it will be wasted unless you support it with your personal meva in equip.

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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-08-16 09:43:48

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Found the post. It was when Soralin suggested to do Ochain first and I disagreed. Simon then followed up and assumed everyone had access to 3 accounts to tri-box DynaD to quickly get Volte gear.

SimonSes said: »

Farm some volte (feet, legs, head) and build a meva tanking set. Makes mdt from Aegis irrelevant almost and blocks debuffs on top of that. Its also better offensively. This stigma that PLD cant build meva and needs Aegis is pretty funny in 2020.

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 09:53:47

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Bismarck.Firedemon said: »

Found the post. It was when Soralin suggested to do Ochain first and I disagreed. Simon then followed up and assumed everyone had access to 3 accounts to tri-box DynaD to quickly get Volte gear.

SimonSes said: »

Farm some volte (feet, legs, head) and build a meva tanking set. Makes mdt from Aegis irrelevant almost and blocks debuffs on top of that. Its also better offensively. This stigma that PLD cant build meva and needs Aegis is pretty funny in 2020.

Yeah it was stupid from my part to assume people would have easy way to farm volte. That being said its easier than you think. You can do it solo on SCH for example. Just need two more accounts to enter. People have many 99 mules now. If you have friends its pretty easy to get them dynamis d access and ask them to use their mules to let you enter.

Also I assumed someone who asking about shields priority and start PLD will use it for low to mid tier stuff and for that meva set makes Aegis almost irrelevant.

Also I admit I was a little tilted that people still think Aegis is only way for PLD to tank magic damage, so I went a little overboard with this comment.

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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-08-16 10:21:30

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SimonSes said: »

You can do it solo on SCH for example. Just need two more accounts to enter.

So *** that you think it's just "that easy" to pay for 2 more accounts, stop it.

Our last 3 Windy runs have netted us zero Volte pieces....zero.

SimonSes said: »

makes Aegis almost irrelevant.

It will never be "irrelevant"

SimonSes said: »

people still think Aegis is only way for PLD to tank magic damage

I feel like you really have a hate on the MDTII. Did Aegis hurt you in the past that you're so against it?

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By Shiva.Flowen 2020-08-16 12:14:55

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I have to admit, after farming dyna in an alliance for 2 years and only getting a few volte pieces I wasnt too fussed about, I was really losing hope of getting the pieces I wanted - I lost the lot on volte brayettes (probably what I wanted the most) and was doubtful I would see it again anytime soon.

For the past month or so, I have been farming with 3 players (RUN, COR + BRD). My bro plays RUN, I dual box my other brothers BRD.

In about 12 runs, killing all wave 2 nms and boss, we have seen 2 volte salade, volte brayettes from windy, body(!),head and feet from Jeuno (we only do those two zones). As we are RUN, BRD, COR, this is with th4.

Our characters are fully decked out, but I feel this is only really needed on windhurst boss, so you could easily grab 2 friends and hit nms.

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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-08-16 14:12:43

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Farming volte doesnt seem to be the biggest problem; Biggest problem tends to be winning the lot when they do drop. Farming runs i consistently see 1-2 drop, and its rare to see 0 on a farm run. Its just getting the right piece then winning lot.

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 14:38:34

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Bismarck.Firedemon said: »

So *** that you think it's just "that easy" to pay for 2 more accounts, stop it.

I specifically explained that you dont need 2 account that are yours. You can ask friends to use their mules to let you in, then kill everything solo, or just farm with 2 friends and split the drops. No idea why you think that boxing is the only way to have 3 accounts doing the dame thing.

Bismarck.Firedemon said: »

I feel like you really have a hate on the MDTII. Did Aegis hurt you in the past that you're so against it?

I simply like to think out of the box and dont like when people think that stereotype way is the only way.

Bismarck.Firedemon said: »

It will never be "irrelevant"

Thats why I wrote "almost". For a lot of content good meva set with 50% MDT makes Aegis irrelevant tho. Especially that we are not talking about Aegis or naked here, but Aegis or Priwen and Priwen has its own perks too like much higher block rate, especially with Reprisal and some HP. You could also probably just justify wearing Ochain with meva set when physical damage is also a major treat alongside debuffs and magical damage and that way you are overall way safer imo.

Obviously the best solution is to get everything and use when its needed.

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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-08-16 15:04:21

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SimonSes said: »

I specifically explained that you dont need 2 account that are yours. You can ask friends to use their mules to let you in, then kill everything solo, or just farm with 2 friends and split the drops. No idea why you think that boxing is the only way to have 3 accounts doing the dame thing.

By doing this, bailing on your LS scheduled events. It honestly just pisses me off every time I read "it's easy" or "grab 2 friends". A lot of people run events throughout the week, and it would be pretty shitty of me as a top DPS to drop the LS to go solo. I'd rather hang out with friends and get frustrated together as a team.

SimonSes said: »

I simply like to think out of the box and dont like when people think that stereotype way is the only way.

It's not really thinking outside the box when you suggest that a new Paladin should skip over Aegis and farm Volte. The whole discussion was based around a new Paladin, yet you're suggesting these outrageous gear sets. That would be the equivalent of me telling a new THF to farm Lilith in 5/5 Malignance gear because it's easy that way.

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By SimonSes 2020-08-16 15:24:06

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Bismarck.Firedemon said: »

That would be the equivalent of me telling a new THF to farm Lilith in 5/5 Malignance gear because it's easy that way.

This is exactly what I would suggest new THF to do lol. Im serious. Doing VE is possible with minimal equip and once you get any Malignance pieces, its only being easier.

Bismarck.Firedemon said: »

I'd rather hang out with friends and get frustrated together as a team.

If you doing Dynamis so frequently with same people, you should have most volte pieces you needed the most by now. Also none is forcing you to go without friends. You can make smaller groups and farm what you need the most, but I bet you simply spam wave 3 rotation, because you sell clears or just want to farm the most gils. Its not easy to get volte to drop, but its for sure easier when you try to do it actively. I got 5 volte (3 head and 2 feet lok) drops in around 12 windurst runs. If you cant sacrifice some LS runs or cant ask LS to specifically farm volte then its your choice. Many things in FFXI can be easy for some and hard for others. Like person being in end game LS will say getting Aeonics is easy, while solo player will say farming Swarts in Omen is easy.

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By Shiva.Flowen 2020-08-16 15:36:50

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Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »

Farming volte doesnt seem to be the biggest problem; Biggest problem tends to be winning the lot when they do drop. Farming runs i consistently see 1-2 drop, and its rare to see 0 on a farm run. Its just getting the right piece then winning lot.

This is exactly why it is better low man. Alliance is good for RP or win, lower number of players is optimal for gil and volte

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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-08-16 15:43:57

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Man, do you read what you even post? The fact that you'd tell a new THF to farm Malignance gear, IN MALIGNANCE GEAR tells me you're on another level of what-the-***.

I'm glad that it took you 12 runs to outlot and win 5/5 Volte, but please realize that it was purely luck, just like it was luck that I went ~100 Lilith runs to get 5/5.

I'm honestly blown away that you have no regard for the RNG. I went 1/1 Moonlight Nodowa when it was released, good RNG. 1/10 Aurgelmir Orb +1 w/o shield, good RNG. 1/84 Hexed Sune-ate -1. bad RNG. Your 12 runs to get 5/5 Volte is good RNG, and our last 3 Windurst runs netting zero Volte is bad RNG. Zero drops is zero drops if you're with 2 other friends, or a Linkshell run of 10 people.

I really thought you were bright, and had a lot of good information in your posts, but the more you post the more I feel quite the opposite.

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