Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium

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Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-29 16:32:54  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Can still use it for stuff like zerde onychophora erinys albumen, but the applications in real content is just limited.

Yeah that's why I list it as situationally powerful.

Spaitin said: »
Heavy DD, bard, cor , geo , whm , tank.

Boot the tank since the Heavy DD is tanking most of the time anyway. Would also depend heavily on the content type though as ambuscade tends to favor a "tank" holding all the adds in one location.
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By Spaitin 2020-01-29 16:34:58  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Boot the tank since the Heavy DD is tanking most of the time anyway. Would also depend heavily on the content type though.
Most of the time that tank is going to be a RUNE. Rune will be a better DD and offer better utility than the bst. Id take the rune over the bst.

If you want to boot the tank.... then add another Heavy DD. Would be silly to replace the tank with a bst if you are just gonna have a heavy DD tank anyway. Second DD would be much better than adding a bst in that scenario.

If you for some reason don't want the tank or a second heavy DD. throw in a rdm. it will DD better and have MUCH better utility than the bst while protecting the party more.

I agree with the content aspect, just hardly any content has bst shine. What content can you think of that you would even want the bst over other options? THe only one I am thinking of is dynamis, and that is alli content. Bst is okay for the trash floors in omen? but any shining one DD can easily AOE burn the adds in one WS. Killer effects are mostly a joke.

If i was shouting for a group and I had DD geo cor bard whm rune and I wanted to replace the tank with something, there are a couple trusts i would take before the bst. Bst would just get in the way of my skill chains and reduce party DPS.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-29 16:49:49  
I'm just saying situations were BST would be useful, not ideal. Going for perfect "ideal", especially when it's not needed, is how the community twists itself into knots.

When theorycrafting we can use "ideal", when strategizing we use what we can get our hands on. If one of our members came to me wanting to do DD BST, that's how I would fold them into the group in a useful fashion.

And you know as well as I that a DD BST would be better then trusts, they have the gear and the weaponskills, all they need is the same buffs we'd layer on anyone else.
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By Spaitin 2020-01-29 16:51:17  
Asura.Saevel said: »
If one of our members came to me wanting to do DD BST, that's how I would fold them into the group in a useful fashion.
Yeah, i would work them in because we are friends. Not because they are good. Those are what I call "pity parties". We let them in cuz we have no one else or we feel bad.

I am not even saying ideal. I am saying remotely good. I would take MOST other jobs before the bst if I was trying to get the best build i could while shouting for a pug.

I would take yoran ygnas or sylvie over the bst even if i already had a whm or geo. Id take the instant erases or extra geo bubbles. Maybe myakov too. I am not saying bst WONT work. I am saying bst wont work well, Or even decent.

Again, outside of dynamis, what groups/content would you take a bst over MOST other jobs. That is what makes bst weak. It is okay if you have NO other options to choose from.

BST players want to be at least CLOSE to a top option. Never fun to sit and a party and watch other people carry you while you are better geared than them.
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By Crossbones 2020-01-29 17:08:27  
BST RDM COR BRD WHM + DPS / tank? I don't use a geo for that much stuff anymore, it's great in omen for vex though. RDM can do a lot of what geo can do and more, and kinda BST if you use the slug to that effect as well. With this setup you have a bst, rdm, cor, brd, and a fifth to do dmg. This is for 6 man content, with 18 you have a lot more flexibility.
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By Spaitin 2020-01-29 17:09:44  
Crossbones said: »
BST RDM COR BRD WHM + DPS / tank?
the only way to improve that party would be replacing the bst with a geo.

Frailty is too big to be replaced by ooze, unless the geo bubble is resisted. Your attack would be under by quite a bit in omen. Most DD can take the mobs defense down 25% anyway while stacking with the geo defense down. ooze doesnt stack with stuff like ageha.


I have done bst x2 geo cor bard whm and found that to be a fairly decent party. Especially on content like Kyou, but that is easy content. That party gets massively improved by replacing both of the bst with something else.
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By Vankathka 2020-01-29 17:21:50  
I've used BST several times in Ambuscade VD and we can replace the GEO, for the most part. Assuming BRD/RDM/COR are there. 33% attack/defense is enough to warrent it and the damage BST has is enough do more then a decked COR, its not a replacement but another way to do it and in a timely manner.
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By Crossbones 2020-01-29 17:24:41  
Maybe you're right but I really don't think it's that hard to cap attack without a geo. You have ooze, dia 3/4, HM with marcato, an attack song, and chaos roll. If the BRD and COR are using a naegling it's already a none issue. A lot of times I do omen we only have 1 geo, and sometimes they are in a PT without a healer (I run a returnee / newbie LS), in those situations I only have them geo vex and stand back and we don't seem to be suffering from any attack issues. And again this is 6 man content we're talking about, and also you gotta factor in that geo debuffs are heavily nerfed in newer content as well. I don't think BST is as much of a black sheep as ppl make it out to be. Maybe it's because I've been running groups with non optimal setups for so long but I can pretty much fit any job anywhere and find a use for it.
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By Spaitin 2020-01-29 17:24:52  
Vankathka said: »
I've used BST several times in Ambuscade VD and we can replace the GEO
I have been noticing the last few months it is pretty easy to cap attack in ambu. On war i have had capped attack the last few months with just fury/frai + dia WHILE having defender up and no berserk. So i guess bst might have a bit of a niche replacing the geo. However, i think replacing the tank would generally be better.

Makes me wonder what the ambu mobs defense is at. I used to assume 3k, but now I think it is much lower.

Vankathka said: »
BST has is enough do more then a decked COR
Cor should beat bst in a WS spam by a decent chunk.
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By Vankathka 2020-01-29 17:29:10  
I think people are misunderstanding here people who play BST actually want to use their pet its not an absurd notion to reach that conclusion however that is not the reality and if I join a party on BST I absolutely am going to just use my pet to debuff and use whatever means I have to not be dead weight and that is possible with all the gear we have, we have access to 90% of WARs gear and Decimation is very strong.
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By Spaitin 2020-01-29 17:32:01  
Vankathka said: »
Decimation is very strong.
It is very strong, i think the only job that has a weaker decimation build than bst is rng though. At least on jobs that can equip dolichenus. Granted I have never seen a rng decimation build, they do have herc gear so it might be fairly strong.
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By Crossbones 2020-01-29 17:32:21  
Yeah that's what I'm saying. I don't think BST is in the greatest spot or that they are must have for any given content but also I think if someone goes out of their way to not include BST because they are not "useful" then that individual lacks imagination. I think BST is in a much better spot than NIN for example.
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By Spaitin 2020-01-29 17:33:26  
Crossbones said: »
I think BST is in a much better spot than NIN for example.
Nin might be the only job worse off than bst.
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By Vankathka 2020-01-29 17:40:12  
There is afew perks to being a BST Melee only deal though, and that is we have access to Malignance gear and /nin is the default we avoid a great deal of status effects sweep/stun type effects and all that, since that set was added theres not alot that really lands on you allowing you to DD efficiently while offering attack/defense and all that.
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By Crossbones 2020-01-29 17:44:16  
Yeah NIN is probably the worst in the game atm lol. I guess RNG would also be up there since it has a very niche use and requires more specific buffs than standard melee so it's even harder to fit into most setups.
 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2020-01-31 03:18:16  
I don't know if this was answered or not, but does Corrosive Ooze stack with Geo Fraility?
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By SimonSes 2020-01-31 03:30:44  
Odin.Senaki said: »
I don't know if this was answered or not, but does Corrosive Ooze stack with Geo Fraility?

Well obviously it does. Corrosive Ooze is def down debuff, Frailty is geomancy debuff. Corrosive Ooze wont stack with things like Shell Crusher, Angon, Ageha etc.
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By kishr 2020-01-31 03:37:12  
Crossbones said: »
Yeah NIN is probably the worst in the game atm lol.
Even play nin at all? It's great.
Can kill extremely more faster and more reliably on nin for escha/reisen nm's than bst.
Maybe your nin is ***and havnt given it a chance. Your fault.
 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2020-01-31 04:13:39  
SimonSes said: »
Odin.Senaki said: »
I don't know if this was answered or not, but does Corrosive Ooze stack with Geo Fraility?

Well obviously it does. Corrosive Ooze is def down debuff, Frailty is geomancy debuff. Corrosive Ooze wont stack with things like Shell Crusher, Angon, Ageha etc.

No need to be rude. :x
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By Felgarr 2020-01-31 04:16:51  
Odin.Senaki said: »
SimonSes said: »
Odin.Senaki said: »
I don't know if this was answered or not, but does Corrosive Ooze stack with Geo Fraility?

Well obviously it does. Corrosive Ooze is def down debuff, Frailty is geomancy debuff. Corrosive Ooze wont stack with things like Shell Crusher, Angon, Ageha etc.

No need to be rude. :x

Simon is being a jerk but is also referring to this page, which makes echoes what he is saying, but also makes an important distinction: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Defense_Down
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2020-01-31 07:04:40  
kishr said: »
Even play nin at all? It's great.
Can kill extremely more faster and more reliably on nin for escha/reisen nm's than bst.
Maybe your nin is ***and havnt given it a chance. Your fault.

Even play bst at all?

It's great. Can kill extremely (sorry can't bear to say 'more faster') fast and more reliably on bst for escha/reisen nm's that nin.

Maybe your bst is garbage and haven't given it a chance. Your fault.

(are escha/reisen nm's even the standard to compare?)
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-31 07:54:21  
Crossbones said: »
Yeah NIN is probably the worst in the game atm lol. I guess RNG would also be up there since it has a very niche use and requires more specific buffs than standard melee so it's even harder to fit into most setups.

...

Ninja is quite strong as a DPS, it just has weird requirements and the player-base is convinced it's a secret tank.

The trick with Ninja is that you need to ride Innin and always have the monster pointed at someone else. Don't waste time casting shadows and debuffs, like this is seriously the biggest DPS self-nerf I see most Ninja's do.

Honestly since the MNK buff, there really isn't a "weak" DPS anymore. The remaining DPS's all have their utility and situational uses. This is seriously the most "balanced" this game has been, like ever.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2020-01-31 08:00:13  
Sorry, I should be more explicit.

I don't think Ninja is bad at all. I'm just annoyed at coming to bst forum to trash talk bst.

And sure, that could go against crossbones as well.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-31 08:00:55  
Odin.Senaki said: »
I don't know if this was answered or not, but does Corrosive Ooze stack with Geo Fraility?

Yes. Ooze is "Defense Down", the same category that Angon, Ageha, Armor Break, and several BLU spells fall into. The other categories are Geomancy, Dia and Daze.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-31 08:03:21  
Asura.Saevel said: »
the player-base is convinced it's a secret tank.

The playerbase is not the ones giving Ninja more HP, Yonin, and Enmity+10 per Utusemi Shadow. I know in your lens the only thing you see is raging dps (which NIN is nice at if buffed appropiately), but even SE doesn't agree with you entirely. They are sticking true to lore and trying to make NIN into the RDM of the Far East, able to do multiple things depending on circumstance. And it confuses too many people. And saying not to cast Shadows is the silliest thing I have ever heard in a while, NIN would get wrecked in two hits if it manages to take hate. And it gets too many ways to increase that shadow count and stay alive. The entire job is based around Utsusemi. NIN wouldn't be in such a bad position if they augmented Utsusemi to not wipe on area affects.

Anyways, I don't disagree that NIN is probably in a worse off position overall vs BST in terms of what it contributes. Neither bring the damage of a heavy DD, but BST brings unique abilities to the group which can be used for certain advantages. NIN doesn't have anything to contribute to group content besides its dps potential, and it's not even that great unless you go out of your way to support it that way. I would invite a great BST over a great NIN to something nowadays just because I know how potent a BST's assets can be. Problem is, nearly nobody plays either job unless for funs xD
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-31 08:25:28  

Sorry but every attempt to make Ninja "tank" has resulted in massive failure. SE gave BLU cocoon and Warrior defender, neither are going around pretending their tanks. Hell Warrior has even more HP then Ninja does along with a native ability to generate large hate spikes, they still aren't tanks. If we need a real tank then we bring a RUN or maybe PLD (these guys need help for enmity). Now that's not to see a DD shouldn't have the ability to reduce damage intake, hell all DD's should have a "please don't die" set, and that doesn't make them a tank.

And yes a Ninja casting shadows is a gigantic waste of time, they will just be removed in a few seconds anyway. Shadows stopped being a useful damage reduction years ago when SE gave everything shadow-wiping AoE's and spells like poisonga, diaga, and every other AoE effect in the game. There are a handful of fights they are useful in and that's it.
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2020-01-31 10:00:24  
Vankathka said: »
I think people are misunderstanding here people who play BST actually want to use their pet its not an absurd notion to reach that conclusion however that is not the reality and if I join a party on BST I absolutely am going to just use my pet to debuff and use whatever means I have to not be dead weight and that is possible with all the gear we have, we have access to 90% of WARs gear and Decimation is very strong.

Yeah, if in February S-E somehow made us do the exact same damage with axes as warrior, I would consider that a net loss. Beastmaster is about both master melee AND pets. If I wanted to play warrior I would play warrior (and I do play warrior now, lol!).

kishr said: »
Crossbones said: »
Yeah NIN is probably the worst in the game atm lol.
Even play nin at all? It's great.
Can kill extremely more faster and more reliably on nin for escha/reisen nm's than bst.
Maybe your nin is ***and havnt given it a chance. Your fault.

I have ninja on my alt and I don't even know that this is true, although I haven't R15'ed aeonic yet. A multistep SC on BST with Dolichenus is great, and pet jobs are more reliable solo in general, though slower with those strats. NIN also lacks reliable AoE for certain fights where you need it. BST by contrast is one of the best AoE jobs.

Aside from a few Ambuscade months ninja doesn't bring much to the table. I play it for fun but the job is in rough shape.
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By kishr 2020-01-31 11:02:49  
(are escha/reisen nm's even the standard to compare?)[/quote]
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
kishr said: »
Even play nin at all? It's great.
Can kill extremely more faster and more reliably on nin for escha/reisen nm's than bst.
Maybe your nin is ***and havnt given it a chance. Your fault.

Even play bst at all?

It's great. Can kill extremely (sorry can't bear to say 'more faster') fast and more reliably on bst for escha/reisen nm's that nin.

Maybe your bst is garbage and haven't given it a chance. Your fault.

(are escha/reisen nm's even the standard to compare?)

Nah never played beast ever, I'm 3/4 rema. F off.
 Asura.Biglovin
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By Asura.Biglovin 2020-01-31 11:10:56  
I have a lv80 Farsha too, does my beast count?
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-31 11:11:00  
You're being overly emotional and sensitive for no reason. Xilkk literally quoted you verbatim to troll you, just changed the job around. He's just giving you that same energy you gave Crossbones.
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