Bushido - The Way Of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0

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2010-06-21
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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Samurai » Bushido - The Way of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0
Bushido - The Way of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0
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 Asura.Memes
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By Asura.Memes 2020-09-15 17:59:01  
Asura.Geriond said: »
I very much doubt that Seigan/Third Eye stacks additively with normal counter.
Meaning what? Seigan/TE counter is checked first, and if that fails then normal counter rate would check?
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By Haziko 2020-09-15 18:18:56  
Asura.Bippin said: »
Edit: Tatena. Sune. +1 should replace Flamma in TP sets, not sure how it stacks up against Ryuo Sune-Ate +1

I would be interested in hearing more on this--particularly since I've been bullish on Ryuo being overrated for a while. I simply never had the results when using them and definitely never found them worth losing the sTP in my feet to be made up elsewhere.

But there are people that live in the "numbers" a lot more than a filthy casual such as myself, so I'm curious.
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By SimonSes 2020-09-15 18:19:18  
Asura.Memes said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
I very much doubt that Seigan/Third Eye stacks additively with normal counter.
Meaning what? Seigan/TE counter is checked first, and if that fails then normal counter rate would check?

Normal counter wont check with third eye at all (assuming it doesnt stack). Normal counter cant proc when hit is "blinked".
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-09-15 18:20:33  
Asura.Memes said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
I very much doubt that Seigan/Third Eye stacks additively with normal counter.
Meaning what? Seigan/TE counter is checked first, and if that fails then normal counter rate would check?

I made a thread about this a couple of years back. Not a whole lot of testing behind it, but I use a seigan/third eye full counter build and the results are pretty insane (like better than MNK counter rate).

You have Zanshin-Seigan Counters, Third Eye Counters, and normal counters. No idea if all are unique counter traits and stack or allow you to bypass the cap or if they all just contribute to 80% max. I do know when I use a very specific set with Third eye, my counter rate goes through the roof.
 Leviathan.Kingkitt
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By Leviathan.Kingkitt 2020-09-15 19:52:00  
Haziko said: »
Asura.Bippin said: »
Edit: Tatena. Sune. +1 should replace Flamma in TP sets, not sure how it stacks up against Ryuo Sune-Ate +1

I would be interested in hearing more on this--particularly since I've been bullish on Ryuo being overrated for a while. I simply never had the results when using them and definitely never found them worth losing the sTP in my feet to be made up elsewhere.

But there are people that live in the "numbers" a lot more than a filthy casual such as myself, so I'm curious.

If i recall Ryuo had an STP path
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-09-15 19:54:57  
Yes. If you don't need accuracy, the feet are pretty incredible.
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By Taint 2020-09-15 20:02:34  
Ryuo+1 feet are crazy good for a Zanhasso build...

DEF:88 HP+18 STR+27 DEX+19 VIT+11 AGI+38 MND+5 CHR+19 Attack+32 Ranged Attack+32 Evasion+55 Magic Evasion+80 "Magic Def. Bonus"+2 Haste+3% "Zanshin"+5 Zanshin: Occasionally attacks twice +11% Set: Increases Attack

Path C
HP+65
Store TP +5
Subtle Blow +8
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By Haziko 2020-09-15 21:43:00  
Taint said: »
Ryuo+1 feet are crazy good for a Zanhasso build...

DEF:88 HP+18 STR+27 DEX+19 VIT+11 AGI+38 MND+5 CHR+19 Attack+32 Ranged Attack+32 Evasion+55 Magic Evasion+80 "Magic Def. Bonus"+2 Haste+3% "Zanshin"+5 Zanshin: Occasionally attacks twice +11% Set: Increases Attack

Path C
HP+65
Store TP +5
Subtle Blow +8

Ah, if it's still just a matter of fitting them into Zanhasso-specific builds, then that makes sense. They'll stay in storage for now, most likely.

Appreciate the input, everybody.
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By Sidiov 2020-09-16 00:00:32  
Haziko said: »
[
Ah, if it's still just a matter of fitting them into Zanhasso-specific builds, then that makes sense. They'll stay in storage for now, most likely.

Appreciate the input, everybody.
I'm sort of curious why you aren't using Hasso?
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 Asura.Nuance
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By Asura.Nuance 2020-09-16 00:37:18  
Sidiov said: »
Haziko said: »
[
Ah, if it's still just a matter of fitting them into Zanhasso-specific builds, then that makes sense. They'll stay in storage for now, most likely.

Appreciate the input, everybody.
I'm sort of curious why you aren't using Hasso?


Also curious

If you’re using the feet with 100 zanshin you get 1/4th as basically more multi hit then the feet add 11% so you’re looking at 36? They are amazing and should be used whenever accuracy is a non issue
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By Taint 2020-09-16 05:58:11  
I go from path C to path A as part of my first ACC swap.

Until you get into seigan, meva or more acc needs they are our best option.
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By Haziko 2020-09-16 08:41:57  
I did not say that I am not using Hasso. Of course I use Hasso (unless I'm in a situation where Seigan is up, obviously).

It is my admittedly-subjective belief that Zanhasso (particularly if it is a build that locks me into losing efficiency by using Kasuga +1) is overrated, and I do not build specifically around in. In particular, the feet--if used only for the OAT, are of diminishing efficiency in my experience. With how much QA/TA/DA my SAM already has, and the amount of innate Zanshin gifts, etc., that little bit of OAT is greatly diminished in my opinion because it is the last to be checked each round.

I've looked through the spreadsheets, I've read the arguments. I've tried my current build (maintaining 4-hit with kendat x2/wakido/flamma x2/accessories), and I've tried the Zanhasso build. I still have the Zanhasso build in my engaged sets if I decide I want to go that route--that's generally only really a consideration in lowman or solo content. In serious group content--which is where I primarily play SAM these days--my numbers have routinely been better with my current sTP/x-hit (plus the additional crit/subtle) build so I maintain that build at this time. The feet are certainly nice for some offensive boost when accuracy is not an issue, and the sTP path presents some options since it is close to the sTP from Flamma (and now Tatenashi); however, the trade-off for 10-11% OAT(which really isn't 10-11% in my opinion) in exchange for what I need to swap in/lose in my x-hit simply is not worth it in my opinion.

As I said before, this isn't a numbers argument based on spreadsheets. I've seen them, and I understand those that swear behind the feet and the effect of the OAT. However, based on my own personal experience (and possibly even influenced by playstyle), it does not beat my current build.

An admittedly-longer ditty than I intended, but I certainly hope this answers any questions. As I said, I'm neither a numbers guy nor do I run spreadsheets, and I have admittedly little interest in rehashing any arguments about Zanhasso that have been made before considering I do not dispute the spreadsheets, and it really isn't conducive to anybody's time. I play and let the numbers pan out and make the decisions off what works best--and my current build works best based upon my experience.

My only real focus here has been to confirm that Tatenashi would replace Flamma in an x-hit build, and I appreciate the answer(s) and thoughts that came out of that.
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By Taint 2020-09-16 09:15:01  
I don't want to argue with its your 12 bucks. But OAT is not an accurate description of Zanshin procs.

Most SAM sets are TA/STP focused. The benefit of most sets are your next hit is a TA, a Zanhasso proc or a miss/Zanshin proc.

DA (Fighters roll,/war) dilutes your zanshin bonus but those same builds stack STP.

My Sets
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 Bismarck.Zubuis
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By Bismarck.Zubuis 2020-09-16 10:46:38  
Haziko said: »

My only real focus here has been to confirm that Tatenashi would replace Flamma in an x-hit build, and I appreciate the answer(s) and thoughts that came out of that.

Curious to know this as well. Mostly the Tatenshi+1 set in general for Samurai.

Assuming for harder content (higher acc required)

Tat +1 aug body compare to Kendat+1?
Tat +1 aug legs compare to Kendat+1? (I think Kendat+1 are prob. better here)
Tat +1 aug feet compared to Flamma +2 / Kendat +2?

Think probably going to need testing. From looking at it, initial reaction is just lots of sideways upgrades. Tatenshi could be a bit better TP gain with the extra STP (but is less TA so maybe not) but losing alot of MEVA and Crit.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-09-16 10:56:08  
Bismarck.Zubuis said: »
Assuming for harder content (higher acc required)

Tat +1 aug body compare to Kendat+1?
Tat +1 aug legs compare to Kendat+1? (I think Kendat+1 are prob. better here)
Tat +1 aug feet compared to Flamma +2 / Kendat +2?

If the content is harder, practical advice is go with the higher meva/mdb/def/hp option in Kendatsuba +1 since you are at greater risk of eating damage and more harmful status effects. This set is a pure DPS option with a little better accuracy, as the base stats on Tatenashi +1 are from so long ago, they don't compare all around with more recent sets. But the difference in damage is slight, so no need to overthink it. IMO, MEVA hybrid sets like Kendatsuba+1 are so good for a lot of things.
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 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2020-09-20 13:31:40  
Planning to putting Tatena. Sune. +1 in this set once i get around to augments

Code
sets.engaged.Acc = {ammo="Aurgelmir Orb +1",
head="Flamma zucchetto +2",
neck="Samurai's nodowa +2",
ear1="Cessance Earring",ear2="Telos Earring",
body="Ken. Samue +1",
hands="Wakido Kote +3",
ring1="Niqmaddu Ring",ring2="Chirich Ring +1",
back={ name="Smertrios's Mantle", augments={'DEX+20','Accuracy+20 Attack+20','Accuracy+10','"Store TP"+10','Phys. dmg. taken-10%',}},
waist="Ioskeha belt +1",
legs="Ken. Hakama +1",
feet="Flamma Gambieras +2"}


Not a big pick up, and most will say its not worth it, but I'll take what I can get.

Not really sure what other Tatenashi piece to work on for SAM, maybe body for Stardiver
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By Mipha 2020-09-23 16:56:39  
Is R15 Stinger Helm+1 the way to go for WS? Or still valor 4-5% WSD and whatever 20-ish acc and the non existent STR?
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By Taint 2020-09-23 17:07:57  
Stinger is def best for Shoha assume you aren’t critically underbuffed.

I’m using it across the board since i a have pretty meh Val head. The ACC helps with the rest of my set and when attack capped it’s better.

New TP set. (Got stupid lucky on body, 6th coffer had the +1)

ItemSet 354851
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By Asura.Evilddstroyer 2020-09-23 22:44:43  
how much acc/ you looking at with that tp set taint?
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By Taint 2020-09-24 05:29:37  
1115 base ACC

First ACC swaps: Ioskeha+1 and Ryuo feet path A = 1161 ACC
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By Aerison 2020-09-24 09:50:39  
Taint said: »
Stinger is def best for Shoha assume you aren’t critically underbuffed.

I’m using it across the board since i a have pretty meh Val head. The ACC helps with the rest of my set and when attack capped it’s better.

New TP set. (Got stupid lucky on body, 6th coffer had the +1)

ItemSet 354851

Why Chirich +1 over Flamma?
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By Mipha 2020-09-24 10:16:28  
Why Flamma over Kenda head?
 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2020-09-24 10:20:35  
Aerison said: »

Why Chirich +1 over Flamma?
STP

Mipha said: »
Why Flamma over Kenda head?
STP
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By Aerison 2020-09-24 10:22:38  
Asura.Bippin said: »
Aerison said: »

Why Chirich +1 over Flamma?
STP

Mipha said: »
Why Flamma over Kenda head?
STP

1 stp over str dex and acc? Okay...didn't know we were back in 2008 making xbuilds
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By Taint 2020-09-24 10:26:09  
Aerison said: »
Asura.Bippin said: »
Aerison said: »

Why Chirich +1 over Flamma?
STP

Mipha said: »
Why Flamma over Kenda head?
STP

1 stp over str dex and acc? Okay...didn't know we were back in 2008 making xbuilds


We are in 2020 where WSdmg and how much excess TP you have when you WS is all that matters.

So yes 1 stp far outweighs STR and DEX in this scenario.
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By Aerison 2020-09-24 10:27:50  
Taint said: »
Aerison said: »
Asura.Bippin said: »
Aerison said: »

Why Chirich +1 over Flamma?
STP

Mipha said: »
Why Flamma over Kenda head?
STP

1 stp over str dex and acc? Okay...didn't know we were back in 2008 making xbuilds


We are in 2020 where WSdmg and how much excess TP you have when you WS is all that matters.
So yes 1 stp far outweighs STR and DEX in this scenario.
Is that 1 stp putting you in a new hit build or are you WS in it for more tp off WS im confused here.

edit: I see what you mean, I'm just having a hard time believing that 1 stp will outweigh flamma benefits.
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By Taint 2020-09-24 10:34:29  
Xhit doesn’t matter in a Zanshin build. I’m literally spamming my WS macro.
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By Aerison 2020-09-24 10:37:15  
Taint said: »
Xhit doesn’t matter in a Zanshin build. I’m literally spamming my WS macro.

I guess agree to disagree on ring then, wish dps cal was working.
 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2020-09-24 10:58:55  
Tatena. Harama. +1 really makes me wonder what Empy+3 body will be

edit:

Aerison said: »
Taint said: »
Xhit doesn’t matter in a Zanshin build. I’m literally spamming my WS macro.

I guess agree to disagree on ring then, wish dps cal was working.

In all honestly the one stp is not breaking or making anything use either, really comes down more to which one you already have on you.
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