The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Sylph.Scare
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By Sylph.Scare 2013-12-12 17:06:03  
I have skimmed the last 20 pages or so and been unable to find an optimum dual wield setup. Could anyone direct me to one please?
 Cerberus.Doctorugh
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By Cerberus.Doctorugh 2013-12-12 18:34:45  
Sylph.Scare said: »
I have skimmed the last 20 pages or so and been unable to find an optimum dual wield setup. Could anyone direct me to one please?


Optimum kind of depends on alot of factors but here's what I believe is a good set that's heavy on acc.


http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/305710


You could swap in the new eminent axe for more acc.
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By Sylph.Scare 2013-12-12 19:42:52  
Just a couple pages back I believe they said that accuracy wasn't really an issue while dual wielding. I also mean for higher tier content with buffs. I reserve higher accuracy sets to a group swap in spellcast. Thanks for the reply though.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-13 08:40:12  
Sylph.Scare said: »
Just a couple pages back I believe they said that accuracy wasn't really an issue while dual wielding. I also mean for higher tier content with buffs. I reserve higher accuracy sets to a group swap in spellcast. Thanks for the reply though.

Use the new eminent axe. The ideal Tp set will depend on buffs, you only need 31~32% DW to hit delay floor if your getting haste spell and double +5 march's. /NIN provides 25% on it's own so you just gotta pickup ~7% more, usually through the earring combo. I'll post my set later once I've sorted it with recent gear additions, it's what I'm using until I get 119 Rag or the new 119 GAXE.
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By Asura.Azeran 2013-12-13 13:58:01  
If I wanted to take a different route, would maintaining a 6 hit 23 percent double attack 5 percent triple attack and 1 quad beat say 26 percent double attack and the extra attributes from a purple berk plus 1,but losing 2 percent triple attack and 1 quadruple. this is comparing porthos and windbuffet versus purple berk plus 1 and a haste belt
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-12-13 15:38:45  
Updated a bunch of sets. Let me know if you find/have a better set.

Conqueror TP
ItemSet 285686

Conqueror TP Accuracy
ItemSet 274267

General Upheaval Accuracy(All Weapons)
ItemSet 275036

Conqueror Upheaval
ItemSet 274268

Conqueror Mighty Strikes Upheaval
ItemSet 282900

Ukonvasara TP
ItemSet 252272

Ukonvasara TP Accuracy
ItemSet 235264

Ukonvasara Ukko's Fury
ItemSet 235836

504 Delay GA TP
ItemSet 309277

504 Delay GA TP Accuracy is the same as Conq/Ukon.

General Upheaval (All Weapons)
ItemSet 285786

General Mighty Strikes Upheaval(All Weapons)
ItemSet 282900
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By Kyler 2013-12-14 10:45:52  
Should note what rolls are required, need lucky or 8+ on samurai to make the ukon build a 5 hit unless you have a Sam in party then it's pretty much anything but unlucky or 1. The overflow wouldn't be terrible for a 6hit but I would think you could do better perhaps not much though
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-14 10:56:57  
Kyler said: »
Should note what rolls are required, need lucky or 8+ on samurai to make the ukon build a 5 hit unless you have a Sam in party then it's pretty much anything but unlucky or 1. The overflow wouldn't be terrible for a 6hit but I would think you could do better perhaps not much though
TP overflow really just increases your crit rate, which is probably more useful given the low dDex you're probably at than most stats you could have during TP. Overflow is more useful to UF than it is for a lot of WS.

For Upheaval, the overflow is still helpful, but I noticed a well geared UF being pretty competitive on things that don't have crit defense or extremely high Dex.
 Sylph.Rafaras
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By Sylph.Rafaras 2013-12-14 11:23:31  
Ejiin, any updated Bravura sets?
 Cerberus.Devious
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By Cerberus.Devious 2013-12-14 16:25:58  
Why no 4hit sets? and why not ravager's +2 hands on restraint builds?
And how is rancor collar not on ukko ws set?
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-12-14 16:50:51  
Cerberus.Devious said: »
Why no 4hit sets?

Not possible.

Cerberus.Devious said: »
why not ravager's +2 hands on restraint builds?

Hasen't been optimal since Skirmish II was released.


Cerberus.Devious said: »
And how is rancor collar not on ukko ws set?

Because rancourous mantle and rancor collar do not stack.
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By Cerberus.Devious 2013-12-14 16:58:43  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Cerberus.Devious said: »
Why no 4hit sets?

Not possible.

Cerberus.Devious said: »
why not ravager's +2 hands on restraint builds?

Hasen't been optimal since Skirmish II was released.


Cerberus.Devious said: »
And how is rancor collar not on ukko ws set?

Because rancourous mantle and rancor collar do not stack.

I have 4hit with 504delay...

+2hands doubles the dmg boost of restraint, i'd say thats pretty damn usefull?

I dont see why u wanna have light gorget over something like Mauler's or atheling mantle, Where acc is not an issue. But even then Mauler's should do the job
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By Kyler 2013-12-14 18:31:03  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Kyler said: »
Should note what rolls are required, need lucky or 8+ on samurai to make the ukon build a 5 hit unless you have a Sam in party then it's pretty much anything but unlucky or 1. The overflow wouldn't be terrible for a 6hit but I would think you could do better perhaps not much though
TP overflow really just increases your crit rate, which is probably more useful given the low dDex you're probably at than most stats you could have during TP. Overflow is more useful to UF than it is for a lot of WS.

For Upheaval, the overflow is still helpful, but I noticed a well geared UF being pretty competitive on things that don't have crit defense or extremely high Dex.

I didn't say anything about DDex, on old content sure. I was more referring to subbing in Gorney/Cizin Mail, Windbuffet Belt, Oneiros Ring, Portus collar when appropriate. Going to do a lot more for you than 1-2% crit rate on ukkos
 Bismarck.Marmite
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2013-12-14 21:40:17  
Cerberus.Devious said: »
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Cerberus.Devious said: »
Why no 4hit sets?

Not possible.

Cerberus.Devious said: »
why not ravager's +2 hands on restraint builds?

Hasen't been optimal since Skirmish II was released.


Cerberus.Devious said: »
And how is rancor collar not on ukko ws set?

Because rancourous mantle and rancor collar do not stack.

I have 4hit with 504delay...

+2hands doubles the dmg boost of restraint, i'd say thats pretty damn usefull?

I dont see why u wanna have light gorget over something like Mauler's or atheling mantle, Where acc is not an issue. But even then Mauler's should do the job

Rancorous + gorget has been a clear winner for ukko's since rancorous was released. 0.1 ftp on the first hit of a 2 hit ws is a considerable boost.

Ejiin is correct about ravager's +2 hands on restraint. The epeen stat splash is probably the main reason for this.

4 hit on a war (if even possible), would probably gimp your dps so much it is likely to have a negative impact overal. Depends on rolls I guess.

Only thing to note really, is that atheling can still win for upheaval in many situations. I certainly have it winning on tojil, with our linkshell typical buffs.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-14 22:11:31  
Kyler said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Kyler said: »
Should note what rolls are required, need lucky or 8+ on samurai to make the ukon build a 5 hit unless you have a Sam in party then it's pretty much anything but unlucky or 1. The overflow wouldn't be terrible for a 6hit but I would think you could do better perhaps not much though
TP overflow really just increases your crit rate, which is probably more useful given the low dDex you're probably at than most stats you could have during TP. Overflow is more useful to UF than it is for a lot of WS.

For Upheaval, the overflow is still helpful, but I noticed a well geared UF being pretty competitive on things that don't have crit defense or extremely high Dex.

I didn't say anything about DDex, on old content sure. I was more referring to subbing in Gorney/Cizin Mail, Windbuffet Belt, Oneiroambuscades Ring, Portus collar when appropriate. Going to do a lot more for you than 1-2% crit rate on ukkos

if you're in a position where you can alter your tp set that much, then yes. i was referring more to small changes like swapping in att ammo instead of Tathlum or ambuscade ring. any significant amount of multi-att is obviously going to outweigh a few tp overflow.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-14 22:52:57  
Cerberus.Devious said: »
I have 4hit with 504delay...
You might be confused about the terminology. The conventional meaning of an X-hit includes the weaponskill's TP contribution, so a 4-hit means WSTP + three swings during TP.

And if you really mean that you have a 4-hit, tell us how. With SAM subjob, the Upheaval set posted above, no missed WS hits,and Ixtab, you'd need 80 Store TP to get a 4-hit (20.5 + 3*26.7 = 100.6). Unless I'm missing something, the most STP we can currently use with Ixtab and decent armor is 8(ixtab)+6(new grip) + 2(ammo) + 7(yaoyotl) + 3(asperity) + 2(earring set) + 6(armada) + 10(ogier hands) + 5(rajas) + 5(tojil ring) + 6(tactical) + 5(goading belt) + 6(phorcys) + 5(miki feet) = 76, which isn't enough to 4-hit and it only has 17% haste.

You could actually get there by swapping two pieces out for Ocachi Gorget, Ker's Flanchard or Ravager's Lorica +2 but you'll still have bad haste and a weaker set to boot.

A Samurai's Roll setup (assuming Lucky(32) or better) would obviously be a lot easier and maybe that's what you were assuming. You only need 34 in that case so 8(ixtab)+6(new grip)+2(ammo)+7(yaoyotl)+2(earrings) +10(rings) is already 35. A missed hit for Upheaval can easily be forgiven if you use Cizin Mufflers too. But then you're relying on Samurai Roll which isn't a good assumption for a guide due to how widely the values vary between different values of the roll.

Cerberus.Devious said: »
+2hands doubles the dmg boost of restraint, i'd say thats pretty damn usefull?
It's useful but at what cost? With a 5-hit, allowing for some overflow, you might get 5.5 average rounds of Restraint charge-up. Without hands this results in a 1.57% boost to your WS damage while Restraint is up. With hands, it's a 3.14% boost. So using AF3+2 hands only provides you with an extra 1.57% damage to your weaponskill on average for a 5-hit. This is a relatively small bonus to overcome during TP by using other pieces. An increase in WS frequency (primarily from multihit and Store TP) or damage during the TP phase can easily make up this difference and well-augmented Cizin Mufflers provide all three.

Deciding between pieces when the differences are too small to be human-observable is what the DPS spreadsheets are good for. I did find a case where the hands were good for use with 119 Ukon but it was with minimal buffs and this guide generally assumes that you have alliance buffs for its set comparisons.

Edit: Added Sam roll bit.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-14 23:08:14  
Idk how you came to 1.43%

not that i'm advocating ravager +2, i quit using it when i could 6 hit rag back when everyone swore by the 7 hit
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-14 23:21:12  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Idk how you came to 1.43%

not that i'm advocating ravager +2, i quit using it when i could 6 hit rag back when everyone swore by the 7 hit
11/385 - 5.5/385 (Restraint bonus doubled in the former) Oh, I see now that I messed that up. :x I'll fix it in a little while, need to go make cookies...

okay, back, I couldn't resist. 504 delay with hasso, capped magic haste and capped gear haste puts us at 2% from the delay cap, so per-round restraint bonus is is ~0.28%, no hands 5.5-hit bonus is 1.57% and hands-boosted bonus is 3.14, so the difference is 1.57%, which is shockingly not too far off from my bonkers previous value. :p
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-14 23:46:50  
unless bg is wrong about it only applying to the first hit of a round, that's still too high. and why i quit using ravager's +2 a long time ago

i wouldn't expect except maybe like .75% per ws [which is floored to 0?] and 1.5% with ravager's +2
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 Cerberus.Devious
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By Cerberus.Devious 2013-12-15 09:46:16  
So this is the the set i call 4hit
ItemSet 316958
It gives 21.5tp a hit, so 4hit = 86 +16.8 from ukko's 2hits
"Edit: infact realized u can swap Yaoyotl with Otomi or Felistris and keep same xhit if u ws in Yaoyotl"

comparing with the razorfury on front page
ItemSet 309277
this set sure is better if u have sam rolls but. how often do that happen?
i dont like the idea of having ur set depending on a roll that is rarely even used.

So in most cases would not my set win?
its only 8DA less(assuming u have max DA on armada), some str and dex but more acc and more ws fregancy without that sam roll

Phoenix.Suji said: »
You might be confused about the terminology. The conventional meaning of an X-hit includes the weaponskill's TP contribution, so a 4-hit means WSTP + three swings during TP.
What if the ws is a 1hit? than u get less stp from ur hit in ws set and so it becomes kind of invalid to complete ur xhit.

Also heres a 3hit(or 4hit whatever u wanna call it) using upheaval just because someone said it wasnt possible :p
ItemSet 316961
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By Fasaga 2013-12-15 10:36:45  
First thing, why do people make arguments for setups without using spreadsheets?

Second thing, why do those of us who do even bother arguing with those of you that don't.

They are incredibly useful, easy to manipulate and excel is a common program that I'd say a majority of people have access to. Ejiin provided a link to the spreadsheets in his OP, it is at the bottom. But, if that is too difficult for you then use this link.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ffxi+spreadsheets
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 Cerberus.Devious
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By Cerberus.Devious 2013-12-15 11:11:49  
Fasaga said: »
First thing, why do people make arguments for setups without using spreadsheets?

Second thing, why do those of us who do even bother arguing with those of you that don't.

They are incredibly useful, easy to manipulate and excel is a common program that I'd say a majority of people have access to. Ejiin provided a link to the spreadsheets in his OP, it is at the bottom. But, if that is too difficult for you then use this link.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ffxi+spreadsheets
If u refering to me, i make no arguments, i ask. I never used spreadsheets and i dont have excel. I dont usally do this much homework for my sets and i certantly dont force anyone to answer.

I liked that link tho
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-15 11:14:52  
Cerberus.Devious said: »
So this is the the set i call 4hit
ItemSet 316958
It gives 21.5tp a hit, so 4hit = 86 +16.8 from ukko's 2hits
"Edit: infact realized u can swap Yaoyotl with Otomi or Felistris and keep same xhit if u ws in Yaoyotl"
Your set is a 5-hit, not a 4-hit. I addressed the rest of your points in my post so I'll take Fasaga's advice this time around.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-12-16 20:03:58  
Have you considered Buremte Gloves for accuracy sets? In some of those sets your far enough above the haste cap where you can use them, and its more accuracy then Mikinaak.
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 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-12-16 20:18:22  
Asura.Fiv said: »
Have you considered Buremte Gloves for accuracy sets? In some of those sets your far enough above the haste cap where you can use them, and its more accuracy then Mikinaak.

I overlooked those, thanks.


Here are the Bravura sets as requested:

What I'm getting as optimal with no rolls:
ItemSet 282984

What I'm getting as optimal with high-end Delve buffs:
ItemSet 317018
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By Bismarck.Bloodbathboy 2013-12-16 20:26:42  
Hey guys, thanks for putting all this up. Been out for 5 months and this makes it easy to figiure things out and catch up!
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By Kyler 2013-12-18 00:01:26  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Asura.Fiv said: »
Have you considered Buremte Gloves for accuracy sets? In some of those sets your far enough above the haste cap where you can use them, and its more accuracy then Mikinaak.

I overlooked those, thanks.


Here are the Bravura sets as requested:

What I'm getting as optimal with no rolls:
ItemSet 282984

What I'm getting as optimal with high-end Delve buffs:
ItemSet 317018

Assuming sam sub

Still not 5 hitting bravura? Even with max auged armada you have 33 stp.

Using your posted max upheaval set, with 1 stp your normal return with no rolls would be 18.3 (generous but not outlandish land all 3 hits or a da and 2. Can overlook this because you will probably get hit w/e blah)

Meaning you need 20.5 TP per hit in TP phase which would require 41 stp in gear

Were you inferring /nin for the no rolls set?
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-12-18 00:26:11  
Kyler said: »

Assuming sam sub

Still not 5 hitting bravura? Even with max auged armada you have 33 stp.

Using your posted max upheaval set, with 1 stp your normal return with no rolls would be 18.3 (generous but not outlandish land all 3 hits or a da and 2. Can overlook this because you will probably get hit w/e blah)

Meaning you need 20.5 TP per hit in TP phase which would require 41 stp in gear

Were you inferring /nin for the no rolls set?

Upheaval is actually 4 hits, so you'd have 19.1 return if all hits landed, but you are correct, even assuming 19.1, you're still not at a true 5hit with that set, coming in short at 99.5 TP with a 4hit Upheaval(and sorry, the set assumed carbonara as food).

Maybe someone can double check for me, but even if I swap in goading and manually add 4 stp to hit the 41 stp mark, it's still a DPS decrease from the set I posted.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-12-20 13:38:15  
Bravura 119's evasion down procs on the very difficult versions of Ark Angels, not very often but 4 or 5 times in a 10 minute fight (we should maybe confirm the amount of evasion down it is sometime, our MNK ended up with capped accuracy this fight). Also metatron's defense down can proc on them, but kparser wont let me check raw data so i can't see how often its been wearing off, i did however see it wear off on TT once, skimming the chat logs manually sucks though.
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By Sylph.Scare 2013-12-21 22:43:42  
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Sylph.Scare said: »
Just a couple pages back I believe they said that accuracy wasn't really an issue while dual wielding. I also mean for higher tier content with buffs. I reserve higher accuracy sets to a group swap in spellcast. Thanks for the reply though.

Use the new eminent axe. The ideal Tp set will depend on buffs, you only need 31~32% DW to hit delay floor if your getting haste spell and double +5 march's. /NIN provides 25% on it's own so you just gotta pickup ~7% more, usually through the earring combo. I'll post my set later once I've sorted it with recent gear additions, it's what I'm using until I get 119 Rag or the new 119 GAXE.

I'm still waiting for your set :P. At least you know im patient.
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