The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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2010-06-21
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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-10 01:10:03  
charlo999 said: »
But then if you were using mighty strikes you'd be using the new sp too that would make the advantage da/ta from conq a wash I'd waver.

If you'd use it with Rag, you'd use it with Conq, too. It might cut the margin, it does less for Conq, but it won't turn the tide since both weapons will get that same boost.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-11-10 01:41:15  
I've been pairing Brazen Rush with Blood Rage and Ukko's and Mighty Strikes with Warcry(Augmented) and Upheaval.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-10 04:27:22  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Even with 99 Ragnarok, Scourge is pretty pathetic compared to Resolution. Unless the mob is weak to light skillchains, you're probably better off just using Resolution, especially under mighty strikes. KJ fairs a lot better with MS especially with 99 Conq. Still, even though Reso has higher potential, if you have AM3 up with Conq, I'd imagine it beats Rag for MS if only by a little. Lower X-hit and OA2-3 is really powerful even if Upheaval and it's white damage are lower.

I'm pretty sure it's Conq's white damage that makes it so powerful. Enhanced Berserk and all that. Pair it with UF just seems ridiculously powerful.

For Scourge, at 99 prior to SoA I was able to nail out 2.5K on it. It was worth using as an opener at the start of a fight, especially if your WHM can nail out a charged up Holy II. Again it's not really something you'd ever use in an alliance, in the middle of a fight or whenever you have MS up.

Note on Scourge, it's not actually a bad WS. 3.0 fTP, 40% damage bonus single hit. It's mods suck horribly so you couldn't pump it up. New SoA gear with all it's stat splat makes this much less of a problem, though STR based WS's are still far superior.
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By charlo999 2013-11-10 14:50:13  
Well at 100 % da how can conq proc until it starts to deteriorate and even then we don't know priorities with da and the new sp. rags white damage per hit cycle is much better if the new sp cancels out conq aftermath because rags bonus will still apply, conqs won't. Also resolution gains more from 100% da than upheaval.

Although pairing them like ejiin maybe better over a longer Zerg.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-10 15:33:12  
charlo999 said: »
Well at 100 % da how can conq proc until it starts to deteriorate and even then we don't know priorities with da and the new sp. rags white damage per hit cycle is much better if the new sp cancels out conq aftermath because rags bonus will still apply, conqs won't. Also resolution gains more from 100% da than upheaval.

Although pairing them like ejiin maybe better over a longer Zerg.
Does it really gain more from 100% Double Attack then Upheaval? If you check bgwiki, it states theirs a max of 8 hits for a WS and DA can only proc twice within a WS, so unless Brazen Rush breaks that cap, it doesnt really help reso anymore then it helps upheaval, reso's advantage is what it was before any JAs.


PS. Brazen Rush only lasts for 1/2 the duration of Mighty Strikes.
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By Asura.Backstab 2013-11-10 16:12:23  
Asura.Fiv said: »
charlo999 said: »
Well at 100 % da how can conq proc until it starts to deteriorate and even then we don't know priorities with da and the new sp. rags white damage per hit cycle is much better if the new sp cancels out conq aftermath because rags bonus will still apply, conqs won't. Also resolution gains more from 100% da than upheaval.

Although pairing them like ejiin maybe better over a longer Zerg.
Does it really gain more from 100% Double Attack then Upheaval? If you check bgwiki, it states theirs a max of 8 hits for a WS and DA can only proc twice within a WS, so unless Brazen Rush breaks that cap, it doesnt really help reso anymore then it helps upheaval, reso's advantage is what it was before any JAs.


PS. Brazen Rush only lasts for 1/2 the duration of Mighty Strikes.

More curious then anything. But DA/multi attack only being able to proc twice on a WS doesnt seem to make sense, maybe if you are dual wielding it can proc 1x per hand so twice in a WS? But that would mean you can only multi attack 1x on a 2 handed wep.

I heard that multi attack from a mythic am3 can only proc one time on a WS but i dont think its the same with all other forms of multi attack. Or am i mistaken?
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-10 16:26:12  
Asura.Backstab said: »
Asura.Fiv said: »
charlo999 said: »
Well at 100 % da how can conq proc until it starts to deteriorate and even then we don't know priorities with da and the new sp. rags white damage per hit cycle is much better if the new sp cancels out conq aftermath because rags bonus will still apply, conqs won't. Also resolution gains more from 100% da than upheaval.

Although pairing them like ejiin maybe better over a longer Zerg.
Does it really gain more from 100% Double Attack then Upheaval? If you check bgwiki, it states theirs a max of 8 hits for a WS and DA can only proc twice within a WS, so unless Brazen Rush breaks that cap, it doesnt really help reso anymore then it helps upheaval, reso's advantage is what it was before any JAs.


PS. Brazen Rush only lasts for 1/2 the duration of Mighty Strikes.

More curious then anything. But DA/multi attack only being able to proc twice on a WS doesnt seem to make sense, maybe if you are dual wielding it can proc 1x per hand so twice in a WS? But that would mean you can only multi attack 1x on a 2 handed wep.

I heard that multi attack from a mythic am3 can only proc one time on a WS but i dont think its the same with all other forms of multi attack. Or am i mistaken?

I'm going by what i know from like 5 years ago and is still on bg wiki, to my knowledge hasn't been disproved of which states you can only double twice on a WS, and the max hits in an attack round is 8 hits. That doesn't mean you can't double and triple or quadruple twice on a weaponskill, but since this topic has turned into which weaponskill gains more from brazen rush, i just thought it should be noted neither of them really does gain more then the other from 100% DA rate unless they break that 2 DA max rule in which case, upheaval actually gains more because they would both cap out at 8 hits in the attack round, where as reso usually has more hits but wouldn't because they both reach that cap, which i highly doubt is also broken by the JA, even if the first one is, which i also doubt.
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By Asura.Backstab 2013-11-10 16:42:20  
Only untill it starts diminishing, then reso has a higher chance to reach the 8 hit mark but yeah.

I actually only responded due to the theorie of only being able to multi attack twice in a WS, actually wouldnt be hard to test that with brazen rush. Just seemed wierd to me that SE does something like cap multi attack at 2x procs in a WS.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-10 16:59:45  
Asura.Backstab said: »
Only untill it starts diminishing, then reso has a higher chance to reach the 8 hit mark but yeah.

I actually only responded due to the theorie of only being able to multi attack twice in a WS, actually wouldnt be hard to test that with brazen rush. Just seemed wierd to me that SE does something like cap multi attack at 2x procs in a WS.

Neither WS would cap at 8 hits with only a 100% DA rate. Upheaval is 4 and reso is 5, that would be 6 and 7 respectively. Which one gets the larger boost, I don't know, it's a larger increase in hits to Upheaval, but reso mirrors its fTP across all hits. Upheaval also gets a lot out of Conq's AM3 as 2 TA's is 8 hits. It would be interesting to see a real breakdown of how the two actually compete.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-10 17:06:44  
Asura.Backstab said: »
Only untill it starts diminishing, then reso has a higher chance to reach the 8 hit mark but yeah.

I actually only responded due to the theorie of only being able to multi attack twice in a WS, actually wouldnt be hard to test that with brazen rush. Just seemed wierd to me that SE does something like cap multi attack at 2x procs in a WS.
Its not completely unreasonable that they did it like that in the interest of balance, a long long time ago, and just never changed it. It still does kind of make sense in the interest of balance as long as they don't add much quadruple attack gear.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-11 08:16:26  
DA can proc twice per WS, this was tested years ago on RR. The general consensus is that DA can only proc on the first 2 hits of a WS and that it's some arbitrary limit SE created when they designed the game.
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By Asura.Backstab 2013-11-11 08:31:05  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Backstab said: »
Only untill it starts diminishing, then reso has a higher chance to reach the 8 hit mark but yeah.

I actually only responded due to the theorie of only being able to multi attack twice in a WS, actually wouldnt be hard to test that with brazen rush. Just seemed wierd to me that SE does something like cap multi attack at 2x procs in a WS.

Neither WS would cap at 8 hits with only a 100% DA rate. Upheaval is 4 and reso is 5, that would be 6 and 7 respectively. Which one gets the larger boost, I don't know, it's a larger increase in hits to Upheaval, but reso mirrors its fTP across all hits. Upheaval also gets a lot out of Conq's AM3 as 2 TA's is 8 hits. It would be interesting to see a real breakdown of how the two actually compete.

Reading would have shown that that my comment was assuming if multi attack can proc on every hit then you are capping at 8 hits on upheaval and over shooting on reso with a 100% DA, as soon as it starts to diminish reso gains more.
Was a answer to the post by Fiv below.

Asura.Fiv said: »
I'm going by what i know from like 5 years ago and is still on bg wiki, to my knowledge hasn't been disproved of which states you can only double twice on a WS, and the max hits in an attack round is 8 hits. That doesn't mean you can't double and triple or quadruple twice on a weaponskill, but since this topic has turned into which weaponskill gains more from brazen rush, i just thought it should be noted neither of them really does gain more then the other from 100% DA rate unless they break that 2 DA max rule in which case, upheaval actually gains more because they would both cap out at 8 hits in the attack round, where as reso usually has more hits but wouldn't because they both reach that cap, which i highly doubt is also broken by the JA, even if the first one is, which i also doubt.

If it isnt the case that multi attack can proc on every hit and that it can only proc twice in a WS then yes jassik both WS only gain 2 additional hits at 100% DA but thats obvious.

I have seen posts and testing on ffxiah and bg saying that multi attack can only proc twice in a WS but i have also seen many other theories, people suggesting otherwise. But if it was 100% proven then my bad, if it hasnt been tested 100% tho new war ja just made it easy to test.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-11-11 08:33:22  
It's been 100% confirmed for many years.
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By charlo999 2013-11-11 14:47:43  
just got back on been a long day but my understanding had always been da can proc 2 times only. making reso a 6 hit and upheavel a 7. And I think its pretty easy to assume that with mirrored ftp also boosted with ele belt gorget and a double affecting mod of str reso is ganna gain a lot more than upheavel.
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By Fenrir.Thandar 2013-11-11 15:06:20  
charlo999 said: »
just got back on been a long day but my understanding had always been da can proc 2 times only. making Upheaval a 6 hit and Reso a 7. And I think its pretty easy to assume that with mirrored ftp also boosted with ele belt gorget and a double affecting mod of str reso is ganna gain a lot more than upheavel.

ftfy
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-11 15:27:19  
ilvl Ukon is bad, incase anyone was wondering.
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By krish 2013-11-11 15:29:17  
Phoenix.Suji said: »
ilvl Ukon is bad, incase anyone was wondering.

Bad how/how bad? Not sure I can bring myself to log in again but getting my Bravura to get iLevel NNN would at least give me something to do.

P.S. Hi Suji!
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-11 16:16:47  
krish said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
ilvl Ukon is bad, incase anyone was wondering.

Bad how/how bad? Not sure I can bring myself to log in again but getting my Bravura to get iLevel NNN would at least give me something to do.

P.S. Hi Suji!

It's a drive by trolling. 119 Ukon is beastly just like 119 Rag. Neither are 119 Conq though, that thing is liquid sex manifest into a weapon.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-11 17:00:55  
krish said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
ilvl Ukon is bad, incase anyone was wondering.

Bad how/how bad? Not sure I can bring myself to log in again but getting my Bravura to get iLevel NNN would at least give me something to do.

P.S. Hi Suji!
Hi, come back!

Ragnarok is about 11% better with all new gear available under super buffed conditions with the normal case of AM1 and Ukko's spam. Even if you give Ukon a free AM3 with Upheaval spam, there's still a 1~2% gap before it catches up to Ragnarok. And this is all without considering Mighty Strikes. And the most depressing part is that AM1/Ukko's is only about 2% ahead of Razorfury+Upheaval.

I'd love to be contradicted and told that my ukon99 has some future but I just wasn't able to find a way to make it worth upgrading given that I also have rag99. Obviously someone with conq99 has even less reason to not toss their ukon.
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By Lakshmi.Eyrhika 2013-11-11 17:17:03  
Where does Bravura fall in all this? I would assume between Ukon and Conq.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-11 17:47:46  
Lakshmi.Eyrhika said: »
Where does Bravura fall in all this? I would assume between Ukon and Conq.
I keep wondering this but i'm too lazy to look at it, but the interesting note is if the magic accuracy skill+ helps land debuffs like bravura's evasion down and metatrons defense down (you know by help i mean make it proc more then once every 500 metatrons), it could be a decent weapon for utility again. Perhaps someone whos bored could take a tsuru and see if tachi ageha lands on high level stuff again, its a very similar case i imagine.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-11 21:23:24  
Asura.Backstab said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Backstab said: »
Only untill it starts diminishing, then reso has a higher chance to reach the 8 hit mark but yeah.

I actually only responded due to the theorie of only being able to multi attack twice in a WS, actually wouldnt be hard to test that with brazen rush. Just seemed wierd to me that SE does something like cap multi attack at 2x procs in a WS.

Neither WS would cap at 8 hits with only a 100% DA rate. Upheaval is 4 and reso is 5, that would be 6 and 7 respectively. Which one gets the larger boost, I don't know, it's a larger increase in hits to Upheaval, but reso mirrors its fTP across all hits. Upheaval also gets a lot out of Conq's AM3 as 2 TA's is 8 hits. It would be interesting to see a real breakdown of how the two actually compete.

Reading would have shown that that my comment was assuming if multi attack can proc on every hit then you are capping at 8 hits on upheaval and over shooting on reso with a 100% DA, as soon as it starts to diminish reso gains more.
Was a answer to the post by Fiv below.

Asura.Fiv said: »
I'm going by what i know from like 5 years ago and is still on bg wiki, to my knowledge hasn't been disproved of which states you can only double twice on a WS, and the max hits in an attack round is 8 hits. That doesn't mean you can't double and triple or quadruple twice on a weaponskill, but since this topic has turned into which weaponskill gains more from brazen rush, i just thought it should be noted neither of them really does gain more then the other from 100% DA rate unless they break that 2 DA max rule in which case, upheaval actually gains more because they would both cap out at 8 hits in the attack round, where as reso usually has more hits but wouldn't because they both reach that cap, which i highly doubt is also broken by the JA, even if the first one is, which i also doubt.

If it isnt the case that multi attack can proc on every hit and that it can only proc twice in a WS then yes jassik both WS only gain 2 additional hits at 100% DA but thats obvious.

I have seen posts and testing on ffxiah and bg saying that multi attack can only proc twice in a WS but i have also seen many other theories, people suggesting otherwise. But if it was 100% proven then my bad, if it hasnt been tested 100% tho new war ja just made it easy to test.

It's also not just that it can only proc twice during a WS, it's only the first 2 hits. Same goes for Dual Wielders, it can only happen on the first mainhand and offhand hits, any additional hits don't have the chance to multi-attack.

It's mostly irrelevant, though, because if you were using the ability with one WS, you're probably using it with another. If you aren't using it with the other, that would be because it's either more advantageous to split them up or because it will still win without it.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-14 03:39:45  
So Suji its best if i can get AM 3 up at start fight - and spam upheaval ? its then competitive with 119 Rag and then its a good 9 % better than other Wars.

AM1 + Ukko spam seems crap @ 2 % increase (had Rouges roll etc?).. what about AM2? or dps worth holding out for AM3 again?

Wont shock me about extra dmg coming from AM 3/white dmg as that's what seems to be happening to a 119 Vere in the Linkshell.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-14 04:22:38  
Rag is always gonna beat out Ukon when your rocking that many buffs. Reso has a much greater damage potential then UF and Upheavel but has a harder time reaching it due to the 15% attack penalty. The moment you remove that penalty via buffs then it's no contest.
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By Leviathan.Egonn 2013-11-14 06:27:54  
Well my new Ukon is straight garbage. I should have just stayed with Razorfury. WTF, I mean it's not even noticeably different damage.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-14 06:40:00  
Thats eyeballing or parsing? you keeping AM3 up ? as that's where the difference to be had is by the looks of it.

should MS up - down WS sets look much different? also is it even worth having an acc build right now if so what would it look like for Ukon
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By Leviathan.Egonn 2013-11-14 07:04:47  
Asura.Izilder said: »
Thats eyeballing or parsing? you keeping AM3 up ? as that's where the difference to be had is by the looks of it.

should MS up - down WS sets look much different? also is it even worth having an acc build right now if so what would it look like for Ukon


I went from always parsing in the top 2 on MNK with OATS straight to second from last with maybe a 2% difference between a Razorfury and me. And really, I shouldn't need my two hour to top a parse with a new 119 REM weapon. That's just silly, but even then, on Tojil I didn't come close and on the Bee my damage was a joke.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-14 07:13:59  
2-3 % difference sounds like what Suji suggested if riding AM1 + UF
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By Leviathan.Egonn 2013-11-14 07:14:50  
Asura.Izilder said: »
2-3 % difference sounds like what Suji suggested if riding AM1 + UF


Well I guess WAR just became town gear again. I can confirm the 1-2%.
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