The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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2010-06-21
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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-14 16:45:45  
Bismarck.Altar said: »
On topic, I'm wondering if the benefits of going from a 6 hit to a 5 hit outweigh the restraint bonus you get from using af3+2 hands.
As far as I know, people using 5 hits, have spellcast variables and swap to a 6 hit build when Restraint is up.
 Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2013-05-14 16:58:45  
Asura.Cambion said: »
Bismarck.Altar said: »
On topic, I'm wondering if the benefits of going from a 6 hit to a 5 hit outweigh the restraint bonus you get from using af3+2 hands.
As far as I know, people using 5 hits, have spellcast variables and swap to a 6 hit build when Restraint is up.

I know. I'm wondering if it's still worth it, given that we're using uph now as opposed to ukkos or reso. I'll have to plug in numbers later.
Although now that I think about it, the additional bonus of being able to add more acc in a 6 hit set would probably make it better.

To chime in on your debate with Reg, I think he's using madrigal as songs 3/4, so it would moreso be madrigal vs minuet.
Also, his x-hit is one lower than yours I think.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-14 17:19:54  
Bismarck.Altar said: »
To chime in on your debate with Reg, I think he's using madrigal as songs 3/4, so it would moreso be madrigal vs minuet.
Also, his x-hit is one lower than yours I think.

Ohhhh, that's a good point. Those fancy 4 Song Brds...
So I guess it would be Minuet 4/5?
4: 56
5: 62

118 Attack & 24% Double Attack + My Set
vs
His set?

Still gunna be hard to beat. But good catch on the 4 Songs point.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-05-14 18:07:51  
Oh, yea. Usually have 6-8 songs and 4 rolls unless it's on Delve fodder, then it's Marchx2, Mad, Min, Fighter's, Chaos.

I'm home now, so I'll start tossing things into spreadsheets in a little bit.

edit: Didn't see the bit about 5-hits, it's better to stay in the 5-hit even with Restraint up.

edit2: what stats were you using for that previous set (the one with waaaaaaaaaaay too much accuracy)?
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-14 18:23:09  
Odin.Registry said: »
what stats were you using for that previous set (the one with waaaaaaaaaaay too much accuracy)?
Stats? That set wasn't used in any DPS if that's what you mean. Just was forming a simple Accuracy Build for Delve NMs.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-05-14 18:24:17  
Oh. I highly doubt it'll do very well unless that's all you have and you don't have any accuracy buffs.
 
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 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-14 19:32:02  
Odin.Registry said: »
Oh. I highly doubt it'll do very well unless that's all you have and you don't have any accuracy buffs.
What?

I'm talking about gearing for Accuracy, and not using Madrigalx2 and Hunters.
Because the gain from Minuetx2 and Fighter's will be far greater, than the small loss in gear choices.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-05-14 21:25:00  
If you're still talking about the accuracy set (like, with Ravager's +2 body) then no, you're losing far too much from that set to make it up with Minuets.

I guess if you have ZERO buffs then it's possible, but what the hell are you doing these NMs for if you have no buffs?

I'm guessing somewhere near 650-750 evasion (I think?) for new NMs if we aren't capping with 2x mad and hunter's; using your set without madrigals, your accuracy is still floored to ***.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-14 23:53:37  
Odin.Registry said: »
If you're still talking about the accuracy set (like, with Ravager's +2 body) then no, you're losing far too much from that set to make it up with Minuets.

I guess if you have ZERO buffs then it's possible, but what the hell are you doing these NMs for if you have no buffs?

I'm guessing somewhere near 650-750 evasion (I think?) for new NMs if we aren't capping with 2x mad and hunter's; using your set without madrigals, your accuracy is still floored to ***.

... Are you not following the math here?
The difference between my posted set with Minuetx2 and Fighters Roll
and your set with Madx2 and Madrigal is... a Whopping 8 accuracy.
EIGHT.

How does -8 acc, take you from your claimed "capped accuracy" to "floored to ***"?

You don't want to include AF3 body,(Which you shouldn't, I forgot the sTP on Armada) Armada Aug and the accuracy difference is now only 12 Accuracy.

No one is talking zero buffs, we're talking about 1 four song Brd and 1 cor.

Marchx2 & Chaos Roll are consistent across both variables:

ItemSet 300157
*64 Acc
*43 Str
*24 Dex
*94 Att
*23% DA


With Madrigalx2 and Hunters Roll
(75 Accuracy)
(139 Total Accuracy)

Vs

ItemSet 300992
*127 Acc
*40 Str
*40 Dex
*58 Att
*29% DA

With Minuetx2 and Fighter's Roll
(118 Attack & 24% Double Attack)
(127 Total Accuracy +8 from Dex = 135)

The difference between the sets then becomes:
From your set to mine:

-4 Acc
-3 Str
+16 Dex
-36 Att
+6% DA

Then another 118 Attack
And 24% Double Attack
While also sacrificing your 5hit and using a 6 hit.

-4 Acc
-3 Str
+16 Dex
+82 Attack
+30 Double Attack


So, I'll repeat...
I have a hard time believing that your 5 hit, will come anywhere near the 6 hit I've listed.
If I've made a mistake in my math somewhere, or if perhaps I'm just mistaken about the value of a 5hit, or I'm just over valuing Attack and Double Attack, then I apologize. I just don't see it.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-14 23:59:27  
These sorts of arguments are really easily resolved by a spreadsheet
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 Cerberus.Cavion
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By Cerberus.Cavion 2013-05-15 00:02:50  
WS Set

TP

a nice 5 hit build that spams 6k upheavals
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-15 00:48:49  
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
These sorts of arguments are really easily resolved by a spreadsheet
Was there a new update for Spreadsheets that included the new NM's?
Or some numbers I can plug in?
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-05-15 01:58:51  
I'll admit I probably *** something up with your set because it was showing at least 50-60 accuracy less when I plugged it into sheets.

Anyway, throw it in with ~650-750 evasion on something like Qilin or Ig. The loss of haste and x-hit is a big deal, I'd be very surprised if your set did better with full buffs.

And... I've got marchx2, madx2, minx2-4, fighter's, chaos, hunter's, and whatever fourth roll (probably rogue's since no crit. def. bonus?) whenever I'm bothering with NMs... which arguably isn't often anymore because there's no way in hell the linkshell I'm currently in is clearing bosses. Anyway, that's what I mostly build sets around. I guess if you only have 4 songs and two rolls (besides getting better BRDs and bringing a second COR) your set *might* do better.





edit: well, you got me curious...

Any time you have full buffs, my set does much better.

If you only have 4 songs and 2 rolls on something that you should really have more buffs for, then your set does do better (~25 dps) assuming you're using mins, fighter's, chaos and I'm using mads, hunter's, chaos.


but I must stress that you get at least 3-song BRDs (takes like a week) and bring a second COR. It will massively improve your dps, enough so that 6 half-geared DDs is probably enough for any of the tier 1-5 delve NMs.


WAIT DERP. I kept 30% ODD on your's. Mine's pretty much winning in any situation with marchx2, madx2, hunter's, chaos. If you add fighter's instead of hunter's it goes a bit higher as long as the mob has under 700 evasion.

edit2: Errr, I just reread your post.. are we talking NMs still or fodder? >_>;; I'm unsure why you're only bringing one BRD and one COR to any NM and there's almost no reason to be using that heavy of an accuracy set on fodder when you can use marchx2, madx1, minx1, fighter's, chaos with one BRD and one COR and still cap accuracy.

edit3: derped on spreadsheet, 3am, going to bed...
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-15 02:36:54  
Odin.Registry said: »
Any time you have full buffs, my set does much better.

If you only have 4 songs and 2 rolls on something that you should really have more buffs for, then your set slightly edges mine (~2-5 dps) assuming you're using mins, fighter's, chaos and I'm using mads, hunter's, chaos.

but I must stress that you get at least 3-song BRDs (takes like a week) and bring a second COR. It will massively improve your dps, enough so that 6 half-geared DDs is probably enough for any of the tier 1-5 delve NMs.

I don't know how else to say 1 4 song Brd and 1 Cor.
If your buffs are enough to make your Max TP set cap accuracy, then clearly there's no need to deviate from that set. Although I'm still curious as to whether meat + Acc gear is > Sushi and 5 hit.

Personally I don't take 18 people to do NMs, nor do I see the need. I take 6-9 people and we clear 2 NMs inside Ceizak each time pretty reliably. This allows us to get 100% Gear drop twice, a few +1s and a bunch of NQs to split among those that didn't get gear, with the 1.5k plasm. Less gather time, pretty steady group of people that come each time.
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By Odin.Registry 2013-05-15 09:09:33  
Okay. I'm actually awake now.

The loss of haste and x-hit in your set throws it behind quite a bit. It's easy enough to put into spreadsheets to see for yourself, just use a target like Ig-Alima or Qilin and set its evasion to ~650-750.

If you can farm them with 6-9 people and are happy getting 1.5k plasm, by all means, that's fine. It's just that you can go with a pickup group that takes ~10-15 minutes to gather and you walk away with about 7-8k plasm. Yes, gear drops are nice, but at this point the ones most of us (being me + people I do things with) still want come from NMs that take more than 6-9 people.

(unless you can do Tutewehiwehi, Kurma, Mastop, or Tax'et with 6-9 in under 25-30 minutes, then maybe we just suck)
 
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 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2013-05-15 14:42:51  
Odin.Registry said: »
Okay. I'm actually awake now.

The loss of haste and x-hit in your set throws it behind quite a bit. It's easy enough to put into spreadsheets to see for yourself, just use a target like Ig-Alima or Qilin and set its evasion to ~650-750.

If you can farm them with 6-9 people and are happy getting 1.5k plasm, by all means, that's fine. It's just that you can go with a pickup group that takes ~10-15 minutes to gather and you walk away with about 7-8k plasm. Yes, gear drops are nice, but at this point the ones most of us (being me + people I do things with) still want come from NMs that take more than 6-9 people.

(unless you can do Tutewehiwehi, Kurma, Mastop, or Tax'et with 6-9 in under 25-30 minutes, then maybe we just suck)

So... your solution to my Low Man, LS NM farming runs...
Is to fill the alli with pick ups, skip NMs and kill Fodder.
Got it, I'll keep that in mind.
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By Angeljcar 2013-05-20 13:21:37  
With the new 156 DMG axe + the 136 DMG axe how well would WAR do dual wielding? (just out of curiosity)
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By Angeljcar 2013-05-20 20:21:45  
b
 Bahamut.Malothar
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By Bahamut.Malothar 2013-05-20 23:53:15  
Angeljcar said: »
With the new 156 DMG axe + the 136 DMG axe how well would WAR do dual wielding? (just out of curiosity)
The 132 dmg axe isn't usable by War. Haven't run the numbers since obtaining it hasn't been accomplished by anyone yet, so no idea if using the mega boss axe by itself, with the skirmish/wildskeeper axe, or with Ridill would be best.
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By Sylph.Decimus 2013-05-21 00:06:34  
Lunarianls on Bismarck just killed the delve Bee and got the axe.

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By Angeljcar 2013-05-21 13:51:11  
If they allow ukko's fury to be used with any weapon and they buff Conqueror to have drastically higher DMG the berserk buff from it would be astronomical.
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By Phoenix.Ayrendel 2013-05-21 23:23:39  
Angeljcar said: »
If they allow ukko's fury to be used with any weapon and they buff Conqueror to have drastically higher DMG the berserk buff from it would be astronomical.

Just out of principle I made a Shamash (99 WoE GA) the day of that dev post.
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 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-05-21 23:35:05  
If it actually happens, it will be my wildest dream come true.
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 Asura.Hotsoups
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2013-05-21 23:53:52  
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
If it actually happens, it will be my wildest dream come true.
^
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By Quetzalcoatl.Lanien 2013-05-23 01:35:05  
Purely from a for fun standpoint, what would be the best possible DW Axe setup? Clearly a BST question but I'm asking more from the position where you take Restraint into question.

ItemSet 301870

I'm really not sure where I'm going here at all

1) Wildskeeper offhand? I guess?
2) lol, Byrnie. Really though given the situation..?
3) The DW earrings vs the DA ones?
4) 24% haste with Restraint if you add Phorcys/Yayotl and remove Ares+1

Again, purely for shits and giggles. If I ever manage to actually get that axe I'll probably make a set just to see how it performs.
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By Phoenix.Ayrendel 2013-05-25 15:04:24  
You'd use suppa/brutal. Also, that tathlum can't be equipped by WAR.
 Cerberus.Phyrefly
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By Cerberus.Phyrefly 2013-05-27 10:14:47  
So all of these tp sets people are posting, particularly the Bloodbath TP Max by Ejiin, are 5 hit builds? If so, can someone please explain how this works or point me in the direction of the info? How much store tp do you need for a 5 hit build for Bloodbath? Sorry if this is something that has been answered before.
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