The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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2010-06-21
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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Siren.Vanian
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By Siren.Vanian 2013-03-06 05:05:25  
So a 5 hit

Running your 5 hit set against my gear and swopping in my ws gear (no ares+1, huginn) I get my 6 hit 222.502 dps your 5 hit 223.084

thats against bukhis mob, no abyssites and just haste
with berserk aggressor end up
6hit 240.968
5hit 240.976
 Carbuncle.Tyleron
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By Carbuncle.Tyleron 2013-03-06 06:21:14  
Siren.Vanian said: »
So a 5 hit

Running your 5 hit set against my gear and swopping in my ws gear (no ares+1, huginn) I get my 6 hit 222.502 dps your 5 hit 223.084

thats against bukhis mob, no abyssites and just haste
with berserk aggressor end up
6hit 240.968
5hit 240.976

Well now I am curious, how about with brd and cor buffs?
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By Phorcys 2013-03-06 06:50:43  
Odin.Registry said: »
Yandaime said: »


By changing from the current best sets to those you're really only shaving off ~.6 rounds per weaponskill. It really isn't worth it.

You're also losing quite a bit of accuracy, attack, DEX, and STR, so as you move up from fodder the sets you posted just start to fall even more behind.

The sets you posted are also very, very far behind (that weaponskill set just makes me want to puke). Even if you make the best changes you can for a 5-hit it just isn't worth it.

and just for fun (read: to show you how far off you were)
That's about the best I can seem to get with a 5-hit (you may be able to get slightly better, but it really doesn't matter and I'm too tired to mess with things right now). Yet, that's even behind on fodder with 0 haste buffs, which is honestly the only situation I can think of where a 5-hit would have any kind of merit.

^This. 5 hit would only be usable against fodder and even then it's going to lose to an optimal 6 hit.
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By Yandaime 2013-03-06 10:04:22  
Phorcys said: »
5 hit would only be usable against fodder and even then it's going to lose to an optimal 6 hit.
Siren.Vanian said: »
So a 5 hit

Running your 5 hit set against my gear and swopping in my ws gear (no ares+1, huginn) I get my 6 hit 222.502 dps your 5 hit 223.084

thats against bukhis mob, no abyssites and just haste
with berserk aggressor end up
6hit 240.968
5hit 240.976

Checked BG Wiki and Vanilla Wiki and couldnt get a read on Bukhis's level. If I had a full version of Microsoft Excel I'd check it myself, my apologies but looking at Vanian's post it looks feasible and in that situation...

Bukhis: NO Atmas, Berserk Up...

Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Well now I am curious, how about with brd and cor buffs?

The two hold a slight tie with only berserk up but what about in Attack Capped situations?, as Tyleron asks. With that attack gap closed, wouldn't there be very little to stop the 5-hit from sweeping? Sorry to persue this as much as I am but every time I use or see a 5/4 in use, the person using it tends to crush everyone else in a parse. Being 4 hits from your next WS is a big deal and if 6/5 is still the current best, the gap is certainly closing lol

Edit: Named the wrong Quotee
 Siren.Vanian
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By Siren.Vanian 2013-03-06 11:02:24  
Bukhis is lvl 100 i think on spredsheet. Cant check anything else till i finish work in about 6 hours
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-03-06 11:31:09  
Which set are you using to compare his sets to?

The fact that he's having to weaponskill in a goading belt, houyi's gorget, and some other HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE ***just brought dps waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down.

The one I posted I could get to come somewhat close to non-ares sets in the absolute best situations possible (e.i. no haste buffs, targeting fodder, etc.), but it was still behind the ares sets by quite a bit.

You also posted something about carbonara... the sets I posted had 41 Store TP in TP and 23 Store TP in weaponskill, respectively. With /SAM and Ukon that's a 5-hit.

Yandaime said: »
Ukon Delay: 482
Delay after Haste Gear: 361
Attack Speed 6.01 sec/Swing
Time til 100~TP 6-hit: 36.06 sec first 6 // 30.05 sec next 5
Time til 100~Tp 5-hit: 30.05 sec first // 24.04 sec next 4
30.05 sec vs 24.04 sec = 20% Decrease Before DA/Retaliation

Forgive me but I'm failing to understand how getting 100~ TP 20% Faster Before Double Attacks "Isn't Worth It".

You can't really say 20% before double attacks because when you're comparing between sets you should be comparing in dps values, double attack is a serious factor.

Sure, your build shaves off ~.6 rounds per weaponskill (about a 12.2% increase in weaponskill frequency), is that worth it? No it is not. You lose out on about 3-500 average weaponskill damage and ~50-100 average damage each melee hit (using the ones I posted, your's was even more dramatic). That means each cycle you're losing out on [(75x4)+400] = ~700 damage (which is about a 15% decrease in cycle damage once you factor in the change from 5-hit to 6-hit). Then on anything higher than fodder you're going to be lowering your hit-rate, again, not worth it.

And again... the sets I posted was the highest 5-hit I could find, your's was way the *** behind.

tl;dr: Don't 5-hit. Don't weaponskill in Goading belt. Don't weaponskill in Houyi's Gorget. Don't 5-hit.
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By Yandaime 2013-03-06 13:22:17  
Odin.Registry said: »
First of all, you can't really say 20% before double attacks because when you're comparing between sets you should be comparing in dps values, double attack is a serious factor.

Sure, your build shaves off ~.6 rounds per weaponskill (about a 12.2% increase in weaponskill frequency), is that worth it? No it is not. You lose out on about 3-500 average weaponskill damage and ~50-100 average damage each melee hit (using the ones I posted, your's was even more dramatic). That means each cycle you're losing out on [(75x4)+400] = ~700 damage (which is about a 15% decrease in cycle damage once you factor in the change from 5-hit to 6-hit). Then on anything higher than fodder you're going to be lowering your hit-rate, again, not worth it.

Already pointed out to you that our suggested TP sets only differ by exactly 1 DA but no worries. As for the rest, one should not encounter Acc problems with this set unless fighting in Legion. So yea, in Legion, I wouldn't use this but just about everything else? Shouldn't have many Acc problems. As for lack of attack, I say that's negligible in an Alliance setting, your likely going to have several attack buffs, bringing you to very high attack values against all things Non-Legion.

I am not seeking speculation, I am merely trying to check DPS vs DPS in high buffed situations. I wouldn't even bring this discussion before you all if I could figure it out myself but I cannot freely edit the DPS spreadsheet, probably due to having the trial version and not wanting to spend money to find a simple answer, so if you can simply post a DPS vs DPS, I'll have my answer and leave it be :)

Edit: Typo
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-03-06 14:26:06  
Yandaime said: »
probably due to having the trial version and not wanting to spend money to find a simple answer

Phoenix.Suji said: »
Now you just have to download it and open it up in a spreadsheet program to edit it. OpenOffice works fine if you don't have Excel.
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 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-03-06 15:07:32  
Yandaime said: »

Already pointed out to you that our suggested TP sets only differ by exactly 1 DA but no worries. As for the rest, one should not encounter Acc problems with this set unless fighting in Legion. So yea, in Legion, I wouldn't use this but just about everything else? Shouldn't have many Acc problems. As for lack of attack, I say that's negligible in an Alliance setting, your likely going to have several attack buffs, bringing you to very high attack values against all things Non-Legion.

I am not seeking speculation, I am merely trying to check DPS vs DPS in high buffed situations. I wouldn't even bring this discussion before you all if I could figure it out myself but I cannot freely edit the DPS spreadsheet, probably due to having the trial version and not wanting to spend money to find a simple answer, so if you can simply post a DPS vs DPS, I'll have my answer and leave it be :)

Edit: Typo

I already gave you numbers, not speculation. I was originally trying to be nice about it and not completely discredit you because I can actually find a few situations that a 5-hit would do slightly better (not your sets, obviously, they were still what-the-***-HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE), but that isn't to say it merits carrying the gear around with you since the situations are very few and far between.

I also already told you the only situation a 5-hit would warrant any use would be in very very low buff situations (no haste buffs, no fighter's roll, no embrava, etc.)

If you want actual DPS comparisons they're listed below, but I'd suggest opening up Motenten's spreadsheet in open office or something, that way you may get an idea of why you're so far wrong.

Your sets:
Fodder - 771.382
Bukhis - 709.926
Pil - 587.577
Qilin - 575.208
Ig - 231.045


5-hit I posted (still do not suggest using it):
Fodder - 799.886 (only situation it's ahead of the "optimal" set, but the only time you're really fighting fodder is NNI and you're either getting hit or have embrava, which makes a 5-hit moot.)
Bukhis - 736.476
Pil - 610.227
Qilin - 602.410
Ig - 259.534


Current optimal 6-hit:
Fodder - 792.655
Bukhis - 742.825
Pil - 615.161
Qilin - 610.840
Ig - 291.800

Buffs: Fighter's/Chaos/Marchx2/Min/Haste/Boost-STR/Berk/Agg/Restraint/Hasso
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By Yandaime 2013-03-06 15:22:03  
Odin.Registry said: »
I already gave you numbers, not speculation. I was originally trying to be nice about it and not completely discredit you because I can actually find a few situations that a 5-hit would do slightly better (not your sets, obviously, they were still what-the-***-HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE), but that isn't to say it merits carrying the gear around with you since the situations are very few and far between.

I also already told you the only situation a 5-hit would warrant any use would be in very very low buff situations (no haste buffs, no fighter's roll, no embrava, etc.)

If you want actual DPS comparisons they're listed below, but I'd suggest opening up Motenten's spreadsheet in open office or something, that way you may get an idea of why you're so far wrong.

Ey, No idea why your taking this so personally, I had a valid question, I asked it and didn't make any waves about it. Might wanna get a stress ball or something lol. This time you very well gave a clear answer and I respect that, after all, numbers don't lie. And my thanks to Eijin for pointing out that a Spreadsheet program such as OpenOffice is needed to Edit Motenten's Spreadsheet. I, who am not fully PC savvy yet, just assumed everything would be ready to go upon download; that is of course my mistake.

I now have the tools I need to seek my own answers, thanks for your time, guys
 Cerberus.Maxiel
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By Cerberus.Maxiel 2013-03-06 15:25:13  
Not trying to discredit the spreadsheet but is it that much of a reliable source? Does it know when attack, acc, fstr, ddex and etc are capped? I'd want to see parse #s and actual tests between the optimal 6-hit and his "5/4" hit cuz his set intrigues me.

Also what food did you use for those #s?
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-03-06 15:28:10  
It's more reliable than parses, because there's no human variables involved, like reaction time.
Parses basicly show you which person did better that fight, not which which person has better gear.
An Ukon90 WAR can outparse a Ukon99 WAR, etc.
Spearsheets shows you what has the best potential.
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 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-03-06 15:28:32  
Yandaime said: »
Ey, No idea why your taking this so personally, I had a valid question, I asked it and didn't make any waves about it.
I answered it and you didn't want to accept my answer so I had to post more than once. I'm not quite sure how that was taking something personally.
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2013-03-06 15:29:55  
Cerberus.Maxiel said: »
Not trying to discredit the spreadsheet but is it that much of a reliable source? Does it know when attack, acc, fstr, ddex and etc are capped?

Yes, it does know and is that reliable.

Beaten
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-03-06 15:37:30  
Cerberus.Maxiel said: »
Not trying to discredit the spreadsheet but is it that much of a reliable source? Does it know when attack, acc, fstr, ddex and etc are capped? I'd want to see parse #s and actual tests between the optimal 6-hit and his "5/4" hit cuz his set intrigues me.

Also what food did you use for those #s?
Many of the mob stats and their derivations are discussed in the mob/player stats thread over on BG. And then some stats which have not been found are informed guestimates based on similar mobs with known stats. So it isn't 100% accurate but it's a lot more accurate than the other options.
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By Yandaime 2013-03-06 15:46:35  
Odin.Registry said: »
Yandaime said: »
Ey, No idea why your taking this so personally, I had a valid question, I asked it and didn't make any waves about it.
I answered it and you didn't want to accept my answer so I had to post more than once. I'm not quite sure how that was taking something personally.

Nah, you mostly gave the typical "No its wrong, it only does x and not enough y" when all I wanted was a simple DPS. It is sooo easy to ignore flat, authoritarian answers when all you had to do was say what you did in that last post, that would've stifled the whole debate xD 5-hit settups have been proven successful with other WSs but with UF you lose too much to get it. Those of us who are curious, want to know how it compares, we want a number not a "No". Gotta learn how to talk to people, I know you meant well but your talking about discrediting me when you didn't even give the answer I was looking for. But thanks to Eijin's input (you said it too) I can look up future interests on my own :)
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 Valefor.Selassie
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By Valefor.Selassie 2013-03-06 16:57:43  
Yandaime said: »
Odin.Registry said: »
Yandaime said: »
Ey, No idea why your taking this so personally, I had a valid question, I asked it and didn't make any waves about it.
I answered it and you didn't want to accept my answer so I had to post more than once. I'm not quite sure how that was taking something personally.

Nah, you mostly gave the typical "No its wrong, it only does x and not enough y" when all I wanted was a simple DPS. It is sooo easy to ignore flat, authoritarian answers when all you had to do was say what you did in that last post, that would've stifled the whole debate xD 5-hit settups have been proven successful with other WSs but with UF you lose too much to get it. Those of us who are curious, want to know how it compares, we want a number not a "No". Gotta learn how to talk to people, I know you meant well but your talking about discrediting me when you didn't even give the answer I was looking for. But thanks to Eijin's input (you said it too) I can look up future interests on my own :)
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0A0wGYYRRdaZjdlNTdkNTEtMDMyYy00OTVmLWI4N2ItNDMwMDI1N2VkYWZk/edit?pli=1
Here you go.. now do it yourself
 Siren.Vanian
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By Siren.Vanian 2013-03-06 17:40:12  
Just as more confirmation, I forgot to change some of my gear when I originally posted, and I have 6 hit winning, sorry for the confusion
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By Phorcys 2013-03-06 18:16:31  
Bahamut.Serj said: »
Cerberus.Maxiel said: »
Not trying to discredit the spreadsheet but is it that much of a reliable source? Does it know when attack, acc, fstr, ddex and etc are capped?

Yes, it does know and is that reliable.

Beaten

^This. A spreadsheet takes away all situational variables and gives you raw, cut-n'-dry data on what's optimal whereas parsing doesn't. The 5 vs 6 hit debate's been brought up and shot down many times before due to hard facts.

If you're hellbent on 5 hitting with WAR without gimping your DPS in the process, go Campaign with SAM sub in this set:
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2013-03-10 18:59:24  
This may be a stupid question, but I'm slowly coming back to casually play, and I've downloaded the advanced spellcast that was provided in the OP.

However, I'm not sure how to navigate between the gearsets. Like, I see trigger spells for things like "Poison 5", etc, but not sure when and how to use them. If i need to have macros that set variables, or just change my macros to fire the trigger spells.

Can someone give me an example of their macros when using the advanced spellcast?
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-03-10 19:07:45  
You'd just use /ma "Poison 5" for the toggle.

I haven't looked at whatever XML you're talking about, but if it's like... a PDT toggle you hit it to go into PDT gear, then hit it again to go out of it.

While you have the toggle on, it'll go back to your PDT gear after any action.

edit: Oh, it looks like Poison 5 just changes your default TP set. So let's say you want to change to your accuracy set, you can keep toggling through until you get to it by typing //poison5 or using '/ma "Poison V" <t|me|whatever>' in a macro.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2013-03-10 19:12:32  
Thanx, that makes sense. Now if I can just figure out why my head gear won't change >.>.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-03-12 14:17:45  
Refined some gear sets and the overall format of the guide. Also added some extra SS for flare.

As always, feel free to ask for any adjustments or specifications for anything. I might not get back to you instantly, but I'll get around to it eventually.

Next thing I'll be working on is Situational & Alternative gear for the rest of the weapons(conq,rag,bravura), but that will take some time.
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-03-14 04:06:04  
more a looking/comfort thingy, but maybe if you find the time/are in the mood for it you could sort the gearsets a little or add those fancy "Jump to top" links to the list gearset list you have in 1st post. like Jinjo has in the in the mnk guide
 Siren.Vanian
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By Siren.Vanian 2013-03-22 12:32:36  
I've been using Registry's Spellcast from the OP and was wondering how I would go about changing the pdt toggles so that if accuracy sets were on the pdt set would be a hybrid pdt set while if acc was off it would be a full pdt set, can someone post how to go about it?
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-03-22 17:19:50  
Code xml
<!-- Hybrid/PDT Toggle -->
<if SpellTargetRaw="PDT">
	<if mode="OR" advanced='"$Armor" == "PDT"' advanced='"$Armor" == "Hybrid"'>
		<var cmd="set Armor None" />
		<addtochat>PDT/Hybrid - OFF.</addtochat>
	</if>
	<elseif advanced='"$Accuracy" == "1"'>
		<var cmd="set Armor Hybrid" />
		<addtochat>Hybrid - ON.</addtochat>
	</elseif>
	<else>
		<var cmd="set Armor PDT" />
		<addtochat>PDT - ON.</addtochat>
	</else>
</if>


Something like that should work, but I just use a separate Hybrid toggle.

I've been playing DRK most of the time as of late, so I haven't really gotten around to updating my WAR.xml. v2 should work for now, but it's got some lazy stuff in it.
 Siren.Vanian
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By Siren.Vanian 2013-03-23 01:55:07  
getting this error:
Code
XML Parsing Error: duplicate attribute
Line Number 696, Column 56:

    			     <if mode="OR" advanced='"$Armor" == "PDT"' advanced='"$Armor" == "Hybrid"'>
------------------------------------------------------------------------^


never mind, I've just added a seperate hybrid toggle instead, so much easier lol
 Alexander.Kryptonitic
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By Alexander.Kryptonitic 2013-03-25 12:41:54  
I'm a lil baffled by the Ukon Hig gearset. By using Ares' Gauntlets+1 and goading belt you can keep Ravagers Orb / Mars Ring. Which when restraint is down gives you 9atk, 16acc and 4 str more than using Phorcys Mitts, Phos+1, blitz and white tathlum. Wouldn't this be more optimal or am i completely missing something? I'm sure if this was the optimal setup it would have been posted as thus so i'm assuming I'm missing something so would love to know what :D
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By Phorcys 2013-03-25 15:45:30  
Alexander.Kryptonitic said: »
I'm a lil baffled by the Ukon Hig gearset. By using Ares' Gauntlets+1 and goading belt you can keep Ravagers Orb / Mars Ring. Which when restraint is down gives you 9atk, 16acc and 4 str more than using Phorcys Mitts, Phos+1, blitz and white tathlum. Wouldn't this be more optimal or am i completely missing something? I'm sure if this was the optimal setup it would have been posted as thus so i'm assuming I'm missing something so would love to know what :D

That build's with Restraint up. If Restraint were down then yes, the setup you posted would be optimal (w/o Embrava).
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By Phoenix.Michelob 2013-03-25 15:49:34  
What part of "when restraint is down" didn't you understand?

Edit: and you fixed it.
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