The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2010-06-21
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Phoenix.Logical
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By Phoenix.Logical 2022-08-25 06:48:03  
Izanami said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Nariont said: »
You got those amazing emp+2 gloves now, doesnt that cut the need for MBB on the earring?

I don't know. Someone know new optimal set with for MB with Futae hands?

I checked the new WS and nuking sets on August 10th, including all of the new gear released with the August update (and Sroda Ring which I had not added yet). My Python thread had been updated to reflect the changes, with the text updated for changes to the nuking sets with Futae.

In summary:
  • Free nukes did not change. Swap in Hattori Tekko +2 if using Futae.

  • Magic bursts without Futae did not change.

  • Magic bursts with Futae use Hattori Tekko +2 (+5 MBB over Nyame). The extra "Magic Burst damage +10" allows you to swap Warder's Charm +1 R15 for Sibyl Scarf (-10 MBB) and Crematio Earring for Static Earring (+5 MBB).


Samnuha Coat with max augments does not show up until I remove both Nyame Mail and Gyve Doublet as potential options.

Edit:
The changes with Futae were mentioned in my Python thread's main text, which is easy to miss if you're only skimming for item sets. I've just now added a fourth item set to the nuking section which simply shows the swaps to use with Futae for free nukes and bursts. This should make finding the information easier.

This is also exactly what I confirmed in real world test over the weekend once I got my Empy +2 hands, was quite disappointed, futae only piece.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-25 07:55:52  
That's good to know. No wonder I was very hesitant to make those hands. I couldn't tell by looking at it, and it did free up neck slot, but they didn't feel as strong and now I can see they kinda suck.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 14:34:49  
So, how are people feeling about the Hattori Garb +2 set? Personally, I think it's at the bottom end of Empy+2 upgrades, and they missed on a lot of areas to make better pieces. Just my thoughts:
-
The last "wow" item SE made for Ninja was Yagyu Darkblade, and nearly nobody can enjoy it at the moment. Just terrible.

/endrant
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2022-08-26 14:47:01  
I wholly agree with everything you've said Buukki. Though the head and legs still don't register that high for me. I can only hope in the +3 versions we see some better action.

I'm only upgrading it because I'm such a Ninja fanboy.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 14:50:38  
I'm a terrible fanboy, but i had to rate head and legs high because i didnt want to be a nancy. Tried to look for the positives in any area i could. As little/niche as they are.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2022-08-26 15:01:11  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
So, how are people feeling about the Hattori Garb +2 set? Personally, I think it's at the bottom end of Empy+2 upgrades, and they missed on a lot of areas to make better pieces. Just my thoughts:
-
The last "wow" item SE made for Ninja was Yagyu Darkblade, and nearly nobody can enjoy it at the moment. Just terrible.

/endrant
I agree on your ideas of the Empy+2 but my opinion is even worse.
Legs are a nice piece for tankin I guess, but I wouldn't give it 9/10. It might look like a 9/10 compared to the other pieces of the set but if you compare it to what other jobs got, it's ridiculous.

Body could've been a decent WS piece for Blade: Hi (especially on the +3) but they decided to put WSD on the *** Feet. Why? For the love of all, why?
Body is still "okaysh" if you wanna fulltime Migawari I suppose, but that's beyond niche if you ask me.

On hands I think you're all underestimating the value of macc, especially on the incoming +3.
They're still a major disappointment. Why not put some mab on them gdi? Even a small amount like +20 wtf.


They keep on doing things wrong for NIN.
Wanna talk about AF head with no acc or att?
Wanna talk about the AF augments they "swapped" between Head and Feet?
C'mon, srsly? Why do they always have to mess up the JSE for NIN?

I dunno, I'm tempted to call it possibly the worst empy+2 upgrade, at least for the 13 jobs I analyzed.



Personaly I don't think I'm gonna upgrade any piece. Maybe hands and feet if the +3 are good enough. But not interested in legs, not interested in head and I don't think I'm gonna do Body either.
All will be super low priority compared to my other jobs anyway.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 15:09:19  
Asura.Sechs said: »
It might look like a 9/10 compared to the other pieces of the set but if you compare it to what other jobs got, it's ridiculous.

Let me stop reading right here and respond right away. This rating is compared with itself, not any other set. Absolutely no way in hell i can compare this set to others, its night and day. If I were to compare this set to another set, like SAM or RUN, these pieces wouldn't rank over 4/10 collecticely (I would give feet and body .5 each xD).

Again, my fanboy traits are just trying their hardest to pull out some wins here (there really aint none if we keeping it a buck, but im trying).
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 15:11:44  
Asura.Sechs said: »
They keep on doing things wrong for NIN.
Wanna talk about AF head with no acc or att?
Wanna talk about the AF augments they "swapped" between Head and Feet?
C'mon, srsly? Why do they always have to mess up the JSE for NIN?

JSE for Ninja has been mostly losses. Relic head was the one bright spot, and they botched that one as well.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2022-08-26 15:13:08  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
They keep on doing things wrong for NIN.
Wanna talk about AF head with no acc or att?
Wanna talk about the AF augments they "swapped" between Head and Feet?
C'mon, srsly? Why do they always have to mess up the JSE for NIN?

JSE for Ninja has been mostly losses. Relic head was the one bright spot, and they botched that one as well.
Seriously, it's such a *** shame.
But Empy is even worse than Relic and AF if you ask me.
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 Asura.Disclai
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By Asura.Disclai 2022-08-26 15:26:16  
They're clearly intending to do NINs a favor in the inventory management department. Consolidating all the usefulness of upgraded empyrean into our earring was really generous of them, from a certain point of view.

On that note, while I can't complain too much about the earring, man is it annoying that we got two largely useless main stats on it. DEX & AGI? Really? Couldn't put STR or even INT on there, at least, for hybrids?

I'd mention its lack of racc, but at least it has throwing skill.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 15:26:40  
Ninja Empyrean does rank dead last in the jobs I've done a review on.
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 15:31:35  
Wish they had atleast "fixed" the wording on the gloves, along with just adding proper mab. But the nin jse was dead on arrival once it was shown they werent going to tweak any of the stuff already on there just increase it, though i guess nice of them to not increase the DW on head, and hey they learned from AF head, the feet have proper WS stats on them, so yay?
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2022-08-26 15:46:42  
DEX and AGI might not be perfect but they're good for multiple NIN things.
Acc, dDEX crit, evasion, ranged accuracy, Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi.

I mean not perfect but... it's ok?
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 15:49:05  
bulk of katana phys WS have a dex mod, usually tied with its STR, and yeah Hi and its odd mod still exists, DEX/STR woulda been more ideal but it fits the job
 Quetzalcoatl.Jakey
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2022-08-26 15:56:51  
At least nin got a good earring but ya I agree nin probably got the least from their empy +2 actual armor.

Trying to think which other jobs are competing for worst sets probably blm and pld but I think both of those sets are definitely more useful than nin's set.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 15:58:28  
If you assume they didn't increase the DW on the head because they understand that would hinder Ninja, then you assume the dev who made this gear understands basic gear and trait mechanics and combinations, right? This person has to be at least a little sensible.

Weaponskill damage trait doesn't belong anywhere near Tactical Party or Utsusemi traits. Like they literally are throwing darts blind here. I have a hard time believing someone actually designed this set. I wouldn't be surprised if SE has a program that just "auto estimates" gear based on a spreadsheet of traits and formulas, and they just ran this for Ninja and just said "good enough". there's no way a human could have made a set this bad. Even accidentally you would get some stats right.

Compare that to BST or DNC set where they put the WSD in the only logical spot it could have gone.
 Asura.Disclai
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By Asura.Disclai 2022-08-26 16:02:32  
DEX is aight for accuracy and AGI for racc/eva, absolutely, but as far as stats to have on an accessory for WS modifiers, they're largely useless for the current meta.

Of course, that's the fault of non-hybrid katana WSes needing to be buffed on the whole. But since they don't seem to have any inclination to do that, they could have thrown us a bone with STR as one of the stats for hybrids & lolsavage.
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 16:02:50  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Weaponskill damage trait doesn't belong anywhere near Tactical Party or Utsusemi traits. Like they literally are throwing darts blind here. I wouldn't be surprised if SE has a program that just "auto estimates" gear based on a spreadsheet of traits and formulas, and they just ran this for Ninja and just said "good enough". there's no way a human could have made a set this bad. Even accidentally you would get some stats right.

I'm just giving benefit of the doubt really, I agree body would probably have been the best spot for it, but the DT pairs well with the migawari aspect, could have thrown some enmity on there(or anywhere) but y'know. Cant do the hands cause thats the nuking piece and it already got burst bonus added in, we can't add TWO things man, legs are taken, so... well there's feet i guess~

Ideally they should have taken the DT from the head and put it on the boots and put the WSD from the boot on the head, yeah, but then you wont use their amazing WSD aug relic head, that only works from behind! Now why would you want to get rid of that man?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 16:08:18  
So let's recap

Can't put WSD on the hands cuz nuking
Can't put WSD on the body because the might go to a useful piece and you'd have to move the DT somewhere else (the feet???)
Can't put WSD on the head because that would make THREE pieces of JSE with WSD trait in the head slot
Can't put it on the legs cuz clashes with relic, and the DT they put on the legs might accidentally go to a more useful slot (the feet??)

So let's put it on the feet, so people can get enhanced WSD while reapplying shadows.

Go to hell, SE
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 16:14:23  
Not saying they arent incompetent but theres usually some logic in there. Ideally they would have dived into the sets and redid some of the base stuff on them buuut, nah. Ilvl em up to whatever ody is and throw in some dt/wsd/pdl/refresh etc where applicable and raise the rest up a tier like nq > +1, cant put 2 of these on the same piece though cause reasons except seemingly stp
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 16:27:21  
The problems with Ninja Empyrean you just described is a direct result of botching Artifact And Relic prior, so now they've pigeonholed themselves into what they can reasonably do with the last JSE set. So now you get goofy stat combinations because, of you don't, then you run the risk of making repeat pieces from prior sets. I totally get that, and "logically", it makes sense from a stat separation standpoint. But logically it also does not make sense when just looking at the gear with your own two eyes. Had they just designed the first two sets sensibly, this would not have been as glaring of a problem. Now it's just exacerbated

SE logic betrays player logic.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-08-26 16:39:58  
Quetzalcoatl.Jakey said: »
At least nin got a good earring but ya I agree nin probably got the least from their empy +2 actual armor.

Trying to think which other jobs are competing for worst sets probably blm and pld but I think both of those sets are definitely more useful than nin's set.

PUP set is one that I'd say is clearly worse than NIN. One pretty good TP option (hands), and one super-niche piece for pet WS only (head) is pretty much it (WSD feet are kinda meaningless on a job that rarely uses WS that benefit much from WSD).

And NIN set honestly isn't that bad. It's not especially interesting in game changing ways, but there are reasonable uses for 4/5 pieces.

Must haves
Feet are an excellent WSD option with very good STR/DEX/AGI, for a job that actually uses a lot of single hit physical WS (Ten, Metsu, Hi, Savage). Right now they are similar to fully augmented Nyame B, and an improvement for the many people who don't have R25 Nyame, and once +3 are released Hattori will almost definitely be far and away our best WS piece for those WS. And hey, not even any excess inventory needed to lug them around since you're gonna be carrying them anyway for the extra shadow.

(I honestly don't get why Buukki seems so mad that they put WSD on the piece that previously had quirky utility stuff. So what? They added strong Attribute/Acc/Atk too and it's now a great WS piece, only to get better in the final form +3 version.)

Niche BiS gear:
Hands are great MB and/or Futae nuking hands. I actually haven't seen confirmation on whether there is any change to how the "Elemental Ninjutsu Damage +16%" works (i.e., is it just MAB+16 like the way it worked on the +1 version, or is fixed to actually be a percentage based bonus like the description implies), but could be potential for free nuke hands too.

Legs are arguably the best tanking (or hybrid tank/DD) piece we have now. Compared to Malignance, these give a little less Meva/Eva (and that gap will likely be erased with the upgrade to +3), but Hattori+2 have DT-4% more and the pretty cool Yonin: Counter+16%. From an offensive perspective, Hattori+2 have STR+11 Atk+81 Acc+31 Racc+3 edge over Malignance, in exchange for the loss of STP+10 and PDL+5 (that you may not be able to actually take advantage of). Fair enough swap, IMO.

Situationally useful
Head probably would have been nicer to lose the DW, but (a) is gonna be very good in any DW-required build whenever that might come up (I still maintain uncapped haste sets with Ryuo+1 for DW, even if I don't use them much), and (b) is probably still a viable Innin TP/hybrid option with that Innin DA+11% and DT-9% (with good acc/atk/racc)

Skippable
Really, the body is the one piece in the set where I don't see a clear cut use. Unless you don't have Malignance Tabard, in which case this is arguably your best available hybrid TP option (although Mpaca and Kendatsuba+1 have their arguments too). Either body or feet were the logical choice for WSD piece; they went with feet, so body's just kind of the odd man out. I probably would have chosen to put WSD on body, but in that case feet would probably be meh - so whatever, kind of a wash to me.
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 16:49:36  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The problems with Ninja Empyrean you just described is a direct result of botching Artifact And Relic prior, so now they've pigeonholed themselves into what they can reasonably do with the last JSE set.

Kinda, I think its more that empyrean itself is a botch job, its a set that tried to band the nuke, dd, and tank aspects of nin, at 99 this set worked reasonably well, but come ilvl it became mostly a mess beyond swap situations, its the 1 set id say needed a overhaul, which didnt happen so its right where it was previously, just with a somewhat okay wsd piece now.

Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
(I honestly don't get why Buukki seems so mad that they put WSD on the piece that previously had quirky utility stuff. So what? They added strong Attribute/Acc/Atk too and it's now a great WS piece, only to get better in the final form +3 version.)

My understanding is hes upset that its your casting piece(utsu)
Its a "tank" piece(parry)
And now its a WS piece

I dont see it as an issue personally but i agree its kinda a blender of stuff
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2022-08-26 17:05:49  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Can't put WSD on the body because the might go to a useful piece and you'd have to move the DT somewhere else (the feet???)
Granted that DT on Body is not the worst part of these 5 pieces, DT on feet would've been perfect. If you get caught midcasting, for the super rare chance when that might happen, a midcast piece like feet is like perfect for DT c'mon.
And WSD on body would've turned it into an awesome piece for lolbladehi and a decent piece for Ten as well and any other decent onehit WS (Metsu?).
Not better than Nyame for Hybrid but hey, that's why we have Nyame after all no?

Wonder if they will decide to swap those stats like they did for the RDM relic feet and some other relic piece.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-08-26 17:27:42  
Nariont said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
(I honestly don't get why Buukki seems so mad that they put WSD on the piece that previously had quirky utility stuff. So what? They added strong Attribute/Acc/Atk too and it's now a great WS piece, only to get better in the final form +3 version.)

My understanding is hes upset that its your casting piece(utsu)
Its a "tank" piece(parry)
And now its a WS piece

I dont see it as an issue personally but i agree its kinda a blender of stuff

I get why someone would roll their eyes a bit at the hodgepodge of stats on one piece. But it's still a great WS piece. That isn't untrue simply because they ALSO have Utsusemi enhancement and tactical parry (which kinda does go with Utsu casting, to give you a chance to parry and avoid getting interrupted).

In some sense, I'm actually happier this way than had they made the body the WSD piece of the set, since that means I can leave body on Porter Moogle, continue using the feet I'm bringing with me anyway for Utsu casting, and have one less Wardrobe slot taken up. Inventory +1 is a win to me, /shrug.

Would I have thought it would have made more sense to add Fast Cast and/or DT on feet, and WSD on body? Yeah, I would. But I can't really get that mad by seeing a top WS option that will only get better at +3, to the point of saying stuff like:
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Feet - 1/10
My rage boils over looking at this piece, even moreso than the hands. Just...why..would you put WSD+8% on a midcast piece?

I just hate this piece in the worst way.
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 17:32:30  
Yeah its a fine piece, and you did a good job going what merits the others have, though i maintain on the whole its largely no different from +1 in its uses though legs got moved up a lil, wish theyd slapped aome enmity on them, but thats a feeling i have with most of the set
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-08-26 17:41:19  
Nariont said: »
Yeah its a fine piece, and you did a good job going what merits the others have, though i maintain on the whole its largely no different from +1 in its uses though legs got moved up a lil, wish theyd slapped aome enmity on them, but thats a feeling i have with most of the set

Yeah, totally agreed on enmity, I was also hoping for that or DT- II on legs.

Same things could have also made body a compelling choice for tanking. Or stick some Subtle Blow II on there, little pet peeve of mine that the only job with SB merits and one of only three jobs with SB trait, so supposedly one of the masters of subtle blow, has only ONE SBII piece (Mpaca's Hose) aside from mainhanding a B path Su5 weapon.

Not a very thoughtful set, IMO. But still some solid uses for most of the pieces.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-26 17:43:44  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Right now they are similar to fully augmented Nyame B, and an improvement for the many people who don't have R25 Nyame, and once +3 are released Hattori will almost definitely be far and away our best WS piece for those WS.

Gaol is getting V25 in the future, with a 4th augment slot coming afaik, correct? If so, Nyame should be improving as well. Premature to make this statement since you are comparing future-state Empyrean+3 to a present-state Nyame. We have no idea what the augments will be on Nyame (if they actually do it), but it stands to reason that Nyame R30 will also improve, so there is nothing definitive about emp+3 feet beating Nyame. At least not yet.

Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
(I honestly don't get why Buukki seems so mad that they put WSD on the piece that previously had quirky utility stuff. So what? They added strong Attribute/Acc/Atk too and it's now a great WS piece, only to get better in the final form +3 version.)

Because it doesn't match the piece. You can argue that Tactical Parry fits with Utsusemi midcast to a certain degree. But WSD is an offensive stat. Imagine if instead of putting MBB + 10 on the hands (the obvious logical spot), they put it on the legs. Doesn't mean you can't nuke in with it, but why would you logically put it there? Notice how they put the WSD for DNC on BST in the correct spots.

Recall back to how you felt every time you looked at AF+3 mask, with no acc or attack, but macc and ninjutsu skill. Clearly a debuff macc piece, right? Let's throw WSD on there, so now you have to WS with it. Just dumb.

Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Head probably would have been nicer to lose the DW, but (a) is gonna be very good in any DW-required build whenever that might come up (I still maintain uncapped haste sets with Ryuo+1 for DW, even if I don't use them much), and (b) is probably still a viable Innin TP/hybrid option with that Innin DA+11% and DT-9% (with good acc/atk/racc)

I just thought of another opportunity for Head. Can use it in a Gokotai MH set while meleeing. It's tankier than Ryou Somen +1 so it becomes a safer option when you're soloing or using that GKT.
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By Nariont 2022-08-26 17:44:20  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
DT- II on legs.

Now lets not get too crazy here
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