The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Just a heads up, if you make Liberator there will be no way to turn off heavy metal music.

Every enemy you meet will be all "Why do I hear Boss music?"

You essentially become the Doom Guy

Are people switching different damage types for normal nostos mobs? I'm not talking about Atonement 3 NMs here. Maybe I'm just not doing OPTIMAL ODYSSEY...


Honest question, are we capping attack on Nostos mobs?

I just went in to get some actual numbers, did 2 Odyssey runs with me + my BRD alt + trusts.

Methodology:
- Used a Malignance TP set and Gokotai offhand for consistency's sake (yeah I know that's not optimal, and honestly IDK why I didn't just use Ternion +1 offhand)
- Relevant buffs: Minuet 5, Minuet 4, Marcato Honor March (max strength songs), and capped haste
- I was using Sylvie Ygnas Monberaux Selhteus trusts
- Spammed a single WS just to get numbers. I realize that SCs with different WS are sometimes better (e.g., Nagi Kamu-Shun when you want a lot of light SCs)
- In a family of mobs, swapped weapons between Nagi and Heishi after half of them so I had same # of mobs and roughly same # of WS per weapon.
- Sometimes did overkill mobs, which dragged average down, but eyeballing it I think it was pretty similar level of overkill/wasted WS damage per weapon.


Numbers:
Nagi (R15) w/ Kamu: 46 WS, Avg WS 11017, DPS 1605

Heishi (R15) w/ Shun: 44 WS, Avg WS 11395, DPS 1623 (and that included light SCs) EDIT: Whoops mistake that did NOT include the SC damage, sorry!

Kikoku (R15) w/ Metsu: 32 WS, Avg WS 7486, DPS 1232 (and that included darkness SCs)

Also did a handful of Blade: Hi with Kannagi but forgot to check them. Totally eyeballing the single digit number of Blade: Hi I did it was probably pretty close to Kikoku for overall WS avg.

I also focused on my BRD/NIN for a handful of mobs due to Simon seeming convinced that a DD BRD would demolish Nagi.... I have R15 Carn, high end TP and WS sets (e.g., was using the pretty standard 5/5 Bihu+3 for WS), Mordant Rime with AM3 up. Same buffs as my NIN was getting.

Carnwenhan (R15)/Tauret w/ Mordant: 24 WS, Avg WS 7664



The other thing I'd note is that I don't tend to do Odyssey with perfect 6-person parties. I often play with less than 6 acutal people and fill a couple slots with trusts. I don't play with people who are always doing things flawlessly (e.g., Calad DRK friend who may not always remember to have Drain Spikes up or does some mediocre Drain IIIs). Sometimes I play with trust-tier healers. I find NIN just makes it easier to pull mobs with shadows up and not have to worry much. When stuff does die fast, just changing mobs and being on them quickly (and the trust owner engaging so the trusts freaking cure) are relevant.

I do stuff like: grab a mob on NIN with shadows up w/ Provoke. While fighting that, Hojo the next mob to line it up for my party. Pop Utsu:San for some hate and shadows, try to grab the next mob while you're fighting, rinse and repeat until the pack of mobs is dead.

Maybe you're doing a "perfect" BRD COR healer DDx3 party with players performing their jobs at optimal level. That ain't my usual Odyssey experience. YMMV.

You don't have to but if you want to optimize, of course you would. Jobs that can use multiple weapon types are always going to outperform other jobs that can't (Monk etc). Ninja is going to hit a wall in Odyssey on Slashing Resist monsters, since they would be limited to I guess Evisceration as the alternative. They might be good for mobs you would normally ignore (slimes) due to nuking, but you would skip those in most groups anyways.

Another thought... maybe my initial language of NIN acting as a "tank" wasn't quite accurate and is part of the issue here. It's almost acting as NIN being a glorified puller with a lot of safety from shadows, and any ability to hold a mob as long as you can to keep it off the other DDs is good. That whole time, you're also contributing some DPS. It feels very lv75 meripo, honestly.

Maybe I'm wrong that it's not "optimal" in that it won't be a meta job for the maximum possible segment farm runs with strong buffs and multiple heavy DDs taking different mobs. But for certain setups, like the ones I often find myself in, it works pretty well.

Also has access to blunt with Karambit though I have no idea how hard it hits on NIN. 20-28k on DNC iirc.

Yeah and its below average damage. No native martial arts, so your attack speed will suffer a lot. You will get better blunt damage as WAR, DRK, BLU, with even better slashing options. WAR gets the better (only) piercing option, and it's probably the most versatile job of every one in the group for Odyssey C.

Ninja is a fine job, no issue using it if that's what you want to do. If its just segments, it doesn't matter much as it's designed to be fun. But for optimization's sake, you can go better if you are looking for ways. I still think jobs that can utilize multiple weapon types or useful magic are the most optimal. BLU is very good, for example.

I tho we were talking about optimal way for farming segments, not duobox.


Again, I was talking about group farming scenario, not duobox.



I covered exactly that in my post. In group farming, brd would just sleep mobs. You don't need to hold them.


Generally yes or close. DRK WAR DRG have big native attack and attack from abilities. Lots of attack from gear too. Blu and bst would use aoe def down, blu also has att boost spell. Brd and cor might not be fully capped if there is no BST or blu in party.

You asked me for actual numbers on Kamu, I gave you actual numbers on Kamu - in a not that unrealistic scenario, I might add. The point was not to give the most super scientific analysis with a ton of data, or to say anything about optimal Odyssey farming. It was to show that Kamu (with Nagi) isn't as bad as people seem to think it is in a pretty reasonable mid-buff scenario.

I had the same max strength BRD attack buffs I'd have in your suggested optimal party, and capped haste from Honor March/Sylvie. I just didn't have a COR, which basically means that from a WS damage perspective I was only lacking Chaos Roll (cuz Samurai Roll, although big for total DPS, is not affecting WS damage anyway).

Nagi/Kamu was very similar to Heishi/Shun, with both of them comfortably ahead of Kikoku/Metsu, Kannagi/Hi, and Carnwenhan/Mordant (which I only tested because you said a DD BRD should crush Nagi NIN, and that certainly wasn't the case in this quick test, or from what I typically see... and I have a well geared DD BRD). I know this is a minimal amount of data, but to give some quick general impressions it was not far off from what I'd have expected - due to seeing similar relative performance across a variety of situations (different events, different levels of buffs, etc.)

I realize you're probably going to want to twist this into "but what about a perfect 6 person segment farm party with max buffs". That wasn't my point. My point was that you said I was being vague about how Kamu compares to other WS with Nagi, and I gave you some (admittedly quick and dirty) real numbers from a rather reasonable practical situation. For purposes of illustrating Kamu damage, it really isn't very relevant whether or not I was hitting those WS numbers alongside two other DDs and a player WHM and getting max segments.

Also... it's ODYSSEY FARMING. I recognize that people do that differently, but for me it's a matter of grabbing whoever's around at the time and going in because some segments is better than no segments. I don't have a static 6 person group on call to do daily Odysssey farming in the most optimal manner. And I certainly don't have that just to get quick Kamu numbers to illustrate a general point in response to the question you posed to me.

(And yeah, I think you'd probably be right if you said that all things being equal, if Heishi's WS numbers were about the same and resulted in easier self-SCs... that's prob a reason to lean toward Heishi over Nagi! But if you happened to want to mess with Nagi and maybe take some advantage of its enmity+ when playing alongside other player DDs, the DPS drop off really isn't that massive - that's my point)


Good points. That being said, unless your group has some real MNK enthusiasts, I'd assume most groups will usually avoid blunt weak mob families anyway for optimal farming setups - right? So it isn't like NIN is in that bad of a situation with blunt being the only weapon type where we seriously lack solid options.

I recognize that jobs like WAR *can* make solid use out of some 'non-traditional' blunt options... but isn't it easier to just go with the even stronger slashing/piercing weapons? I mean, your big ticket DPS are gonna be things like:

WAR with everything
SAM with Slashing/Piercing (GK and Shining One)
DRG with Piercing/Slashing (Polearms or Naegling)
DRK has some options but is generally more slashing-oriented
MNK is the best example of a SUPER limited job that's really tied to blunt damage
COR or RNG with Slashing/Piercing/Magic (Naegling, Daggers/ranged, magic WS)

And when you talk about hybrid tanky-DPS, which is more a case of RUN or NIN... RUN is pretty much tied to slashing, where NIN at least gets pretty good piercing with Tauret/Evisceration.

Unfortunately, even in calm event like farming raindrop points, people HAVE to think about it in terms of max optimization. It's nauseating and expected at the same time. You can play whatever you want but people are still going to discuss methods for making it better, and I actually like hearing that perspective.


Sometimes it is. But monsters like undead take additional blunt damage. Warriors and dark Knight can make good use out of lox mace and blurred shield. The damages is absurd. Same with piercing For flying monsters, shining one. Not really going to crunch numbers because segments is mostly fun and I hate turning something like that into another debate about max optimization. But if we're comparing options, I'm going to have to agree with Simon that ninja falls a bit lower in the hierarchy of useful jobs in Odyssey. Can still use it if you want, but even weaker jobs like BST seem to add more utility than even ninja. Especially when you start looking at things like killer instinct and mass defense/attack down

On WAR I lay down the law on skeletons using Loxotic Mace Judgments. Even with banishga up its still worth it to go clubbin, its like 60k WS average

If you enjoy playing ninja you should absolutely do that. I min max everything as much as possible and that isn't always the most fun thing in the world. If playing with Nagi makes the turd-tier grind that is odyssey segments enjoyable for you and you don't mind inevitably getting less segments per run, then do it and don't look back.

It is unrealistic scenario for group farming. Normally you would have at least strong Chaos roll too. That being said, for Kamu it doesnt really matter. It has 125% attack bonus and 25% ignore defense mechanic that's why I said


Nagi even with buffs have ceiling around 13k. For comparison I was doing 35-47k Expiacions on BLU farming yesterday and I forgot to set Frightful Roar. Friedrik said he does 60k Judgments on skeletons, Kamu would do like 5k on skeletons probably.


Exactly this. Its 100% fine to play what you want, enjoy it and do segment farming with NIN (assuming people that play with you dont mind it too). Its whole other story to try to convince other people that its an objectively good choice (both job and weapon) for optimizing the farm tho.

I regrettably have to agree with Simon and Friedrik, nothing personal about Capuchin, who I love.

I'm all for doing things that are less than optimal setups just because I enjoy them more, as a matter of fact I do that quite often, most of the time I'd say.
Tryin to convince myself (or the others) that what I'm doing is actually the "optimal setup" though is a different thing.


As much as we can struggle to find small Niches where Nagi pwns, it's just not realistic in actual, common gameplay. And more specifically it's not the case in Odyssey.

I think we went through the same occurrences when a couple of people in this thread had just completed Kannagi and were tryin to convince others that Kannagi was OMG SO AWESOME. There's a couple of situations where Kannagi is okaysh, but most of the times it simply is not, period :-P

I doubt this. What is your ws set?

Skeleton takes +25% damage from club. Fencer Jugdment starts at like 2000TP (assuming small tp overflow)? If you use warcry, its almost 3000TP. Judgment has same wsc like Savage, but Loxotic has 223 damage and 10%WSD. You would need to do 48k normally to do 60k on skeleton. I can believe that.

My damage is closer to 50k average and can spike up to 60k on skeletons. Depending on the floor, they barely have that much HP anyways. This is before warcry, but it's definitely high up there and I have a near perfect judgement set. But I usually WS right as soon as I hit 1k because with fencer and shield, you get way closer to 2k without warcry so I save that buff for something else.

I usually save warcry for the halos to bring them down quickly, or the skeleton packs (whichever comes first) in order to boost the damage of the savage dragoon we bring. Those tend to be the packs that slow us down the most, so my judgments are big *** bonk when the skeletons come up.

watch where you waving that BDE

Don't worry guys, through some extensive R&D I got us covered for different dmg type for nin in Ody- Piercing



Like with most our ws this keeps us in the 20k club so, right on par.

You make DRG use SB on all slashing and blunt weak mobs?

R15 kannagi is so awesome, :x

That 70 AGI on a melee weapon.

Nice, that'll help hotshot damage

According to sheet, Naegling build on DRG is on par with Trishula r15. Trishula obviously wins hard if you can self skillchain tho.

What about NIN using Savage Blade?

it has 20 Dex, too and blade hi % damage u can hi up to 30k with that with minimial buffs but sure 30k is not so good these days, outside of that it can be the best tanking weapon with Offhand Odyessy katana ambuscade cape with evasion magic evasion Earring from vagary/ Balder's earring +1 and maligance set, the aftermath is also a plus, its way more optimal than kikkou with many more uses. please dont forget that agility has more uses than just a WS mod for hi

No buffs is one of the few situations where Kannagi truly shines.
Not denying that, but how many situations are there where Kannagi is that good?
Not many, alas.

Things could be better if Blade: Hi wasn't so bad.
Would need just a small tweak to make the WS and, consequentially, the Empy very competitive again.
As it stands now it's a nice toy and that's it.

(I do own an R15 Kannagi btw, so it's not like I'm being envyous about people who own one)

its way better than kikkou for the tonberry fights especially at the end, its just that hi is as weird as Ten sometimes, ok yes its not very consistent.

I was having fun with my niche weapon(r15 farsha) in Sheol C, until the T3 Nm came out and now we're all desperate to farm as many segments per run as possible ha (switched to chango,lox,shining).

My Nagi is not AGed yet but I'll be finishing that up soon just because XD.

Weak buffs I do find Kannagi to be pretty great, better than Kikoku (and those were my choices for a while before I had a Heishi). But yeah, once you're getting buffed it does tend to fall behind.

On a personal level, one practical use I do occasionally have for Kannagi is when I'm actively playing on my alt a lot (I don't automate it, I just swap between two windows and manually play 2 characters) and there's a good chance I'm not WSing at ideal times due to busyness. Extra white damage is nice there. This is obviously not a situation where we're talking about playing NIN at an optimal level though! Also arguably a place where Heishi (or Naegling) still wins, because TP overflow is helpful, but kinda depends on how well buffed you are (Heishi/Naegling without the needed buffs is less impressive). Definitely gives Kannagi more of an edge over Kikoku in that situation though, since that weapon requires really being on the ball to hit Metsu ASAP after 1000tp.

I don't really find any of the NIN weapons to be THAT much head and shoulders above the others though, except if you're super buffed and doing hybrid WS. In which case, Heishi all the way.

I guess my attempt at being enthusiastic about NIN in Odyssey farms is more a function of me thinking shadows are pretty handy in there and Utsu: San is less time casting than DD/NIN. My NIN blink tank/puller/DD approch probably comes from a place of feeling like old school meripo to me though, DD/NIN just grabbing stuff and fighting. If you don't care about the additional room for error from having a bunch of shadows though, have really on the ball sleepers/healers, then yeah... I guess your balls to the wall DD jobs are a better call for optimizing segements.

The most straightforward solution if you do think that kind of NIN role might have some benefit to you in a particular Odyssey setup though is to just use whatever weapon . Heishi's prob the most straightforward, and I'm absolutely not saying OMG NAGI IS SO GREAT... But Nagi is also not OMG SO BAD, there's really not that huge of a difference DPS wise between it and, say, Heishi. And I say that having used all of the NIN RMEA quite a bit. Similar DPS, maybe a little more in Heishi's favor, but without the Enm+40 that could be worth the slight hit to your offense. /shrug

But yeah, I guess the idea of NIN in there is not so popular lol... fine, bring whatcha want. The more I think about it, honestly I'm sort of into the idea of playing more on my Masa/Shining One SAM, which I haven't had a great opportunity to use a lot lately... Or Trishula/Naegling on DRG...


TBH, Kikoku is the one I tend to think gets the most frequent unwarranted praise around here :) And I do have some sentimental attachment to that thing as my very first FFXI RMEA. It's occasionally nice for some SC purposes, but otherwise I always tend to find that one of the other high end weapon options is just better. (not to say that Kikoku is awful or anything, it's... fine)

Mind posting your Hi set? curious see what you're wearing for 30k's w/minimal buffs. All jokes about the hot shot stuff aside, my nin is stuck in 20k land for like all ws minus blade: ten w/enough attack, and hybrids where they work, and sb but that doesnt count.