The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Phoenix.Logical
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 14:14:33  
OK so after redoing ideal setups for Kamu and Ku after Langly's changes and double checking my other 4 setups...this is what I'm now showing. In a capped buff situation here is where I show the weaponskills falling in their ideal setups.

Blade: Ten - WS'ing at 1000 (2500TP) 6918 - Heishi/Hitaki
Blade: Ten - WS'ing at 1250 (3000TP) 6357 - Heishi/Hitaki
Blade: Metsu - 6128 - Kikoku/Tauret
Blade: Hi - 6042 - Kannagi/Taka
Blade: Ku - 5413 - Gokatai/Tauret
Blade: Shun - 4534 - Heishi/Tauret
Blade: Kamu - 3947 - Nagi/Tauret

So Gokatai indeed gave Ku a very much needed boost to be above Shun. Still disappointed in where Kamu ends up with Nagi, was expecting it to be closer to Shun damage.

Here is my github with my already setup spreadsheets if you want to see how I got to these numbers. For anything that requires augments (Herculean Gear and Kanaria) look on the Notes tab for what Augments you would need and what benefit that would get you over the current shown BiS.

https://github.com/NextGames2000/Spreadsheets

Please note these are to be used for reference only. Langly's updated spreadsheet on the main page should still be the one you use for your own setups.

Working on fixing Trust setups for Ku and Kamu now and will upload them shortly as well for reference.
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By SimonSes 2020-06-30 14:36:10  
That Ku set is not bis.

Cape STR and 10%DA
Rao HQ legs path B
Ryuo HQ feet path A
Fotia belt! (probably the most important switch)

That should boost Ku from 20833 to 22427
 Phoenix.Logical
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 14:46:11  
SimonSes said: »
That Ku set is not bis.

Cape STR and 10%DA
Rao HQ legs path B
Ryuo HQ feet path A
Fotia belt! (probably the most important switch)

That should boost Ku from 20833 to 22427

Oh wow yea silly mistake with the belt, huge boost there.

Rest of the items, Very interesting! These aren't even in the spreadsheet or things I thought of but you seem to be correct on the Cape and will setup and test legs+feet. Thanks for corrections! Will update accordingly on spreadsheet when I get these added.
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 Asura.Mewwgoat
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By Asura.Mewwgoat 2020-06-30 16:35:35  
So to clarify for my sake, I see Nagi always being counted with aftermath, would kikoku having its aftermath (10% att) been counted in your math for ws with kikoku MH for other ws low man buff situations?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-06-30 18:38:52  
So is anyone able to perform a comparison on Skrymir cord +1 vs Orpheus's Sash for Ni/San? I know the easy answer is "Sash is just better" but I would like to know the difference in dps for nukes between the two, the same as Logical performed in other tests. Anybody with both able to test it out?
 Sylph.Excalin
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By Sylph.Excalin 2020-06-30 19:34:22  
For Magic, does Int give any type of Magic Accuracy boost? I see the no dstat, but I dont know if that means no boost or that the boost doesn't get reduced at a certain point.

I know Int is great for mDmg term, so might be a moot point anyway with making my cape.
 Sylph.Excalin
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By Sylph.Excalin 2020-06-30 19:44:40  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
So is anyone able to perform a comparison on Skrymir cord +1 vs Orpheus's Sash for Ni/San? I know the easy answer is "Sash is just better" but I would like to know the difference in dps for nukes between the two, the same as Logical performed in other tests. Anybody with both able to test it out?

I get about 700 Damage increase over no belt with Cord +1 and a 2k increase with Sash in optimal range. All before Futae/Bursting bonuses.

At least that is what the spreadsheet is telling me
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-06-30 21:00:20  
Phoenix.Logical said: »
Blade: Ten - WS'ing at 1000 (2500TP) 6918 - Heishi/Hitaki
Blade: Ten - WS'ing at 1250 (3000TP) 6357 - Heishi/Hitaki

Um... surely that's backwards, right?

Aside from that, there's no way in hell Nagi/Tauret Kamu should be that bad, something's not right on that spreadsheet.

I use a similar Kamu/Ten set to what's on your spreadsheet. Minor differences like no +1 ammo, I have a couple of DM Herc pieces in my set (WSD+7% feet, WSD+8% body), and I juuuust finished R15 Sailfi+1 a few days ago so have little experience with it. Anyway, my Nagi R15 Kamus are competitive with Kikoku Metsu (I tend to get Metsu falling a little behind Nagi Kamu/Shun for pure WS damage) and Nagi Shun (which I find slightly higher damage than Kamu, but really close). I get even better results with Kannagi Hi or Naegling/Hitaki SB though; Heishi Ten should also win.

Naegling/Hitaki SB I find the best of the bunch in raw WS numbers, but for overall DPS it loses some steam due to slower TP generation and a lack of some of the additional perks like Kannagi's stellar white damage or good ability to self SC from most of the katanas - Metsu-Metsu, Hi-Hi, Kamu-Shun, or Shun-Shun (Heishi only). I find that Naegling's overall DPS ends up faltering a bit due to those things (especially when missing some buffs), but with mega-buffs it's very competitive.

FWIW, Heishi somewhat runs into the same Naegling issue of "no SCs" if you're just spamming Ten... but at least you're equipping a weapon that allows for you to have other decent WS options if you want to hit a quick SC with Hi or Shun.

Bismarck.Gippali said: »
For those wondering about Nagi spamming Ten w/ AM:

Nagi/Hitaki: 6888
Nagi/Gokotai: 5618
Nagi/Fudo: 5533
Nagi/Ochu: 5703
Nagi/Shigi: 5564
Nagi/Kanarai(TA): 5751
Nagi/Tauret: 5796
Nagi/Achu: 5678

That's pretty consistent with what I'm seeing too for Nagi Ten, for relative order.
 Phoenix.Logical
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 21:25:29  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Phoenix.Logical said: »
Blade: Ten - WS'ing at 1000 (2500TP) 6918 - Heishi/Hitaki
Blade: Ten - WS'ing at 1250 (3000TP) 6357 - Heishi/Hitaki

Um... surely that's backwards, right?

Aside from that, there's no way in hell Nagi/Tauret Kamu should be that bad, something's not right on that spreadsheet.

That really is correct. I was surprised at first as well but given that the big jump is at 2000TP and not 3000TP it makes sense. This means if I TP at 1000TP(2500TP) it will give me an average for me about 34k per WS. Now in order for 1250TP (3000TP) to beat it, it now is going to need to do at least 8500 MORE per weaponskill to overcome that 34k we would have done had we just kept ws'ing at 1000TP...and that extra 4FTP isn't enough to do that. At least that's the way I'm seeing it.

Not sure what to say about Kamu damage, it continues to look low to me as well but I'm not seeing anything in the spreadsheet that would explain the low numbers. Maybe we can both go on Ninja to a Dynamis run soon, you can use Nagi/Kamu and I'll do Kikoku/Metsu and we will see how DPS goes. If your right there with me DPS wise then there is obviously something here that isn't right with the spreadsheet. It's best I can offer until I finish my Nagi and can do actual parser comparisons. Thus far the spreadsheet has been spot on for everything else I've used it for short of the issues we've worked out today with Gokatai/Nagi calcs.
 Bahamut.Alexcennah
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2020-06-30 21:27:20  
Not sure if this helps as you guys are assuming capped buffs, but Kamu has a massive attack boost (+125% on attack and ignores 25% of enemy's defense).

Also Capu, aren't multihits better than WSD for Kamu as it only has 1.0 fTP?
 Bismarck.Gippali
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2020-06-30 21:33:06  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
FWIW, Heishi somewhat runs into the same Naegling issue of "no SCs" if you're just spamming Ten... but at least you're equipping a weapon that allows for you to have other decent WS options if you want to hit a quick SC with Hi or Shun.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. Ten has more SC flexibility then SB. Fudo/Rudra's/Expiacian/CDC/etc all chain with Ten and can produce some decent darkness's to burst off of. It's the same thing with Nagi even with the initial AM proc. You can Kamu > Shun for light and burst off of that, then bursting with whoever is in the pt that can do above ws's.
 Asura.Mewwgoat
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By Asura.Mewwgoat 2020-06-30 21:36:35  
Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
Not sure if this helps as you guys are assuming capped buffs, but Kamu has a massive attack boost (225% on attack and ignores 25% of enemy's defense).

Also Capu, aren't multihits better than WSD for Kamu as it only has 1.0 fTP?
you mean 125% attack bonus?
 Bahamut.Alexcennah
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2020-06-30 21:41:41  
Asura.Mewwgoat said: »
Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
Not sure if this helps as you guys are assuming capped buffs, but Kamu has a massive attack boost (225% on attack and ignores 25% of enemy's defense).

Also Capu, aren't multihits better than WSD for Kamu as it only has 1.0 fTP?
you mean 125% attack bonus?
Yes, my bad for the typo.
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2020-06-30 22:00:46  
The sheet has the old Studio Ghobli value of 31% attack bonus.

Can happily change to ~200% in Other Lists > L32, but I've never seen any concrete testing for it's bonus being that high. I'd really want to see the confirmation testing before making a change that large.
 Bahamut.Alexcennah
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2020-06-30 23:23:44  
It depends if we want to trust the japanese players as I found this info on http://wiki.ffo.jp/html/15893.html.

Quote:
ただし攻撃力に3倍相当の補正が確認されており
"However, it has been confirmed that the attack power is tripled"

To my knowledge it's a reliable source, but no doubt it would be better if we could test it ourselves.

Anyway, it's clear that Studio Ghobli numbers are outdated as Kamu went through two increases in power (June and December '14, they are in the update notes) that we didn't pay attention.
 Asura.Psylo
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By Asura.Psylo 2020-07-01 02:26:20  
Quick question about tanking, what's better in your opinion for AOE hate ?

A sub blu with his 3 spell (1 aoe, 1 conal and 1 single) and 0 ja
A sub DRK with one AOE and one single and 2 JA.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-07-01 02:38:39  
If you had to pick an off job to sub for tanking on ninja, I would go with paladin to be honest, unless you need the attack. Banishga for tagging, sentinel for Spike hate, you get a quicker provoke in flash (that you don't need due to yonin spam shadows) and cover is unique. Emergency cures is also helpful. That aside, warrior sub is probably fine if you can quickly tag the other targets and get to generating hate.

Blue sub, in my opinion, is horrible for ninja and unnecessary. It's really intended to be used with tanks that have natural MP pools and a way to replenish that supply; ninja simply does not mix well with it. You will run out of mp at some point so it's finite in it's usefulness. The only thing I could see it useful for would be cocoon, but even that's annoying to have to keep recasting. Once you tag the monsters you will be using utsusemi and only that for hate, as Blue magic hate generation is nothing compared to Yonin utsusemi cycling. So blue made sub in entirely pointless from a tanking perspective for ninja.

In any event, as is already known, ninja is not a good tank for multiple targets. It's fine for this months ambuscade but I wouldn't push it with anymore than a couple mobs because shadow maintenance could be challenging, especially if the monsters can frequently remove them.
 Asura.Psylo
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By Asura.Psylo 2020-07-01 02:59:13  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
In any event, as is already known, ninja is not a good tank for multiple targets. It's fine for this months ambuscade but I wouldn't push it with anymore than a couple mobs because shadow maintenance could be challenging, especially if the monsters can frequently remove them.

even with a goof idle eva set like this ? (around 1400 eva)

ItemSet 366702

anyway tks for the tips
 Quetzalcoatl.Jakey
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2020-07-01 05:04:42  
If you are looking to tank on nin, unless you really need an aoe to tag with I highly recommend subbing run, it gives you everything else a nin wants.

Flash and nice set of job abilities for more hate. Inquartata to pair with Issekigan for actually decent parry rates (especially with ambuscade cape with parry on it). More evasion with swordplay and you have Migawari to stop swordplay from being removed. Also the Magic Evasion abilities come in handy for most fights.

If you are having someone else sleepga the mobs you can cast an enhancing spell on them after they sleepga to tag the mobs to yourself.
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 Cerberus.Hideka
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By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-07-01 09:34:23  
So i was playing around with the Hachimonji last night, and was able to do some nice damage with it. i was wondering if anyone had worked out BIS stuff for this yet?

This is what im using now for full store TP;

ItemSet 374131

this came out to 132 Store TP with sam sub, carbonara, and kakka. i know i need to get a +2 nin neck and +1 Chirich rings eventually, but those are a ways off since SE nuked sparks ;_;.

Using a Corsair i was able to get another (i think) 78 Store tp, pushing me up to 100% Triple attacks, and 10% quad attack.

Is there any obvious improvements i could make to this store TP Setup for this?

for hybrid WS's how should i balance my gear? i know they can take advantage of double attack and the like, but also need ATK/Matk/STR/INT for most of them? i think in most situations im going to have a harder time capping out MATK rather than ATK on these so i went with mostly augmented herc stuff, and magic attack/weaponskill damage

ItemSet 374132

Herc stuff is all 5-10% WSD & Magic Attack Bonus 25+
i'm lacking the +3 Nin Relic legs/artifact head atm, so those to me would be obvious improvements.

Right now im at about 30-50k in full buffs on jinpu - is there any obvious improvements to make? am i going the wrong direction by going hard on magic attack bonus?

i couldnt get kasha to do anything close to respectable damage unfortunately. i think that might just be a biproduct of kasha rather than a gear deficiency tho. even under full buffs it struggled to get to 20k at 1000. anyone have better results?
 Asura.Mewwgoat
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By Asura.Mewwgoat 2020-07-01 10:23:01  
Quote:
i couldnt get kasha to do anything close to respectable damage unfortunately. i think that might just be a biproduct of kasha rather than a gear deficiency tho. even under full buffs it struggled to get to 20k at 1000. anyone have better results?
im pretty certain Tachi: Kasha isn't a hybrid, Jinpu is tho.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2020-07-01 10:40:49  
Kasha wont do respectable damage. Might break 20k at 3k on occasion.

Hybrid would be the way to go if you're getting buffed enough. Otherwise, your auto attacks are rather good and dumping a near 3k Kasha is the best bet, I think.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-07-01 11:00:26  
Asura.Psylo said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
In any event, as is already known, ninja is not a good tank for multiple targets. It's fine for this months ambuscade but I wouldn't push it with anymore than a couple mobs because shadow maintenance could be challenging, especially if the monsters can frequently remove them.

even with a goof idle eva set like this ? (around 1400 eva)

ItemSet 366702

anyway tks for the tips

It depends on the monster level. I was able to hold about 8 floor 1 Odyssey mobs with no issue as NIN. Most of their attacks in a standard Malignance set missed while I struggled to keep shadows up with the constant Agon Beastmen spells aoe wiping them. I see similar results in Omen as THF with the same set. Anything over 125 /128 is kid of dangerous to have 5+ targets on you, as you can't rely on evasion alone. The exception is ambuscade months like this where the villain is relatively harmless if shadows get dropped.
 Cerberus.Hideka
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By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-07-01 11:49:52  
Asura.Mewwgoat said: »
Quote:
i couldnt get kasha to do anything close to respectable damage unfortunately. i think that might just be a biproduct of kasha rather than a gear deficiency tho. even under full buffs it struggled to get to 20k at 1000. anyone have better results?
im pretty certain Tachi: Kasha isn't a hybrid, Jinpu is tho.


oh i know; thats not what im using for kasha; that was just for jinpu/kagero/goten. oddly enough i was able to get some fairly solid numbers out of goten/kagero as well - easily 20-30k.
 Cerberus.Hideka
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By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-07-01 11:54:01  
Asura.Veikur said: »
Kasha wont do respectable damage. Might break 20k at 3k on occasion.

Hybrid would be the way to go if you're getting buffed enough. Otherwise, your auto attacks are rather good and dumping a near 3k Kasha is the best bet, I think.

yea the white damage was definitely up there. buff wise we were doing Honor mad minx2, Wizards + Samurai, and geo was doin MDEF Down, and MAG up, with dia2 + ageha handling the def down. we were taking about ageha > jinpu >jinpu to drop an apex; could probably have just done jinpu > jinpu > Huton + aero V bursts and been slightly faster in that set up
 Asura.Hrohj
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By Asura.Hrohj 2020-07-02 03:47:33  
Phoenix.Logical said: »
Been asked a lot for this one over the last few months. Was finally it's turn, Elite Blade: Metsu gearsets video is out.

YouTube Video Placeholder

I'm glad you make videos like this and I'm sure it's helpful to a lot of people.

However, listening to you mispronounce every Japanese word is cringe-worthy. "Hi" is pronounced as "He". "Shun" is pronounced as "Shoon".
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By HyperKTM 2020-07-02 03:51:10  
Hi and Shun have the same pronunciation and its ***
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-07-02 04:33:48  
And Metsu is something like "Metz".
Granted that it's probably beyond the point of the video Logical makes. He's tryin to help the NIN community, he has no claims about his japanese pronounciation lol.

But I agree it feels a bit odd and statistically peculiar that he manages to mispronounce like 98% of the japanese words xD


I don't feel like you should change that Logical, as I said before it's not the point of the videos.
BUT if you're interested in this, maybe I can help you out with a couple of audio-files ;-) or a Discord chat, or whatever.
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By Laboob 2020-07-02 05:25:35  
mhomho said: »
...So someone finally teste enmity in the offhand? Far as I remember that was a no.


If it’s anything like other mythics (carn in mind) then it shouldn’t. You don’t get the song duration bonus with carn if you offhand it. This also holds true for yagrush (both veil and benison) While I know a fair comparison would be towards whether the Mijin buff works in offhand or not, I think it’s safe to assume that the enmity on nagi doesn’t work in offhand.
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