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Conqueror
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2012-01-17 15:48:40
Current ODD on Bravura is 20%. To be the same as Ukon it would have to be 30%. They're increasing the rate, so they'll be closer, if not the same.
An additional 15% damage to a ws that is weak and you don't use is a moot point.
Ukko's is much better than Upheaval, even post nerf.
So, you have a 27 d difference between Ukko's and Upheaval. Pretty sure Ukon still wins.
All of this despite the fact that getting Bravura costs the same as getting 1500 HMP. If you're getting Bravura thinking it will be a better weapon in all regards to Ukon, you're wrong.
Reading is hard. 
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サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 163
By Sylph.Biginallways 2012-01-17 15:50:10
I only said 99 bravura would beat 90 ukon. I never "white knighted" my relic. I'm not going to argue about what rolls are used since I have no control over it. 99 bravura will beat 90 ukon, period. Conqueror will beat them both. Those are the two claims I've made so don't come putting words in my mouth.
 Bahamut.Danthebk
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 198
By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-17 15:55:21
It'll depend on the aftermath on Ukon. 40%-50% ODD at 90 Ukon is greater than 99 Bravura and Upheaval, but 30% ODD would perform worse. 99 Ukon is better regardless of the ODD percent.
As far as Conqueror, without knowing the Aftermath split, or very much about the weapon itself. I have a lot of confidence that it crushes both of them with Upheaval simply because OA2-3 with the chance to proc on a weaponskill is painfully broken. But I can not support that claim at this time.
Edit: in the time it took me to spreadsheet this, the thread exploded. woot.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 163
By Sylph.Biginallways 2012-01-17 15:57:48
I have no doubt the order at 99 is conqueror>ukon>bravura in terms of sheer damage output with conqueror winning handily.
Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 16:03:07
You specify "sheer damage output" as if WAR is there to do something else. Bravura's aftermath doesn't matter.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 211
By Odin.Almont 2012-01-17 16:43:04
Bravura's aftermath doesn't matter.
It matters in some situations where the party/ally setup and/or the healers' ability are not optimal. It doesn't matter how much spike damage you lay down if you end up dying frequently during the event. I know a lot of people on here like to post "then your healers suck" commentary. All I'll say is if your group is always entirely optimal and you never want for a cure then good for you.
Also, it's probably a lost cause but don't misunderstand this as disagreeing with the math posted earlier. Sadly I have no doubt that the hierarchy is Conqueror > Ukon > Bravura @99 for each weapon.
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サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2012-01-17 16:53:13
This thread: So it's a battle between an unavailable weapon of level 99 and another weapon of level 90. To compare these two, we're going to use a tool that measures values generated by hundreds of anonymous people posting their findings in user generated forums that evaluates damage vs a few select enemies on paper. We're also going to use measured data from actual game experiences, but that measures only the gear and playstyle of that particular person. Then, we're going to throw a third weapon in, just for kicks. Let's not worry about it's level - 75, 99, whatever, right? To make sure we cover all aspects, let's have one person worry about what one weapon costs. Another person can worry about a weaponskill available to all three weapons. Another person can only worry about a weaponskill available to just one of the weapons.
Remember, if you're confident that what you're saying is the most accurate, use terms like, "gimp," "sucks balls," "can't read," "***," and the like - they serve as reinforcers of truth. If, by some freak of nature, we come to a standstill, remember this:
And you will be saved.
I can't see how this can fail at all.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 17:05:41
You specify "sheer damage output" as if WAR is there to do something else. Bravura's aftermath doesn't matter.
Sometimes I wonder if you ever played this game for fun... although everyone here pretty much agrees Bravura is not the all round best of all weapon for war you can't seem to let go that people may be more interested in trying a job in scenarios that are more diversified than the "optimal playground" you tend to place everything in.
It's a friggin game >_>
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 Bismarck.Altar
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1676
By Bismarck.Altar 2012-01-17 17:11:34
the hierarchy is Conqueror > Ukon > Bravura @99 for each weapon.
This is also the hierarchy in terms of cost/difficulty to obtain...
devs doing something right?
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Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 17:11:48
When did I say anything about not having fun? About optimization? You're making a ton of assumptions right now. Calm down, it's just a friggin discussion.
If doing less damage while maintaining a superfluous and replaceable defensive mechanism is more fun for Tom, well by golly, Tom should get a Bravura. It seems to me, however, that the discussion is centered around the best weapon of the three, and that's not Bravura.
Bahamut.Danthebk
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 198
By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-17 17:33:35
So it's a battle between an unavailable weapon of level 99 and another weapon of level 90. Whose stats are known, but not finalized.
To compare these two, we're going to use a tool that measures values generated by hundreds of anonymous people posting their findings in user generated forums that evaluates damage vs a few select enemies on paper. If hundreds of anonymous findings are all receiving similar results, then an accurate conclusion can potentially be made. That, or they're all just trolling. For simplicity's sake we'll hope they're correct.
We're also going to use measured data from actual game experiences, but that measures only the gear and playstyle of that particular person. Which is an un-credible way to present an argument.
Then, we're going to throw a third weapon in, just for kicks. Let's not worry about it's level - 75, 99, whatever, right? The third weapon, while irrelevant, is included for the competition for the top spot, even though it didn't stand a chance. The level is not irrelevant, but since we're talking about the "best", 99 is a safe assumption unless stated otherwise for comparative purposes.
To make sure we cover all aspects, let's have one person worry about what one weapon costs. Which is pretty much irrelevant if the debate is on which weapon is the best. If the argument was which is the most cost effective, it'd be a different story.
Another person can worry about a weaponskill available to all three weapons. Another person can only worry about a weaponskill available to just one of the weapons. The differing weaponskills is relevant in determining which weapon is the "best". It's actually the only determining factor because if the weaponskill was the same for all of the weapons the answer would be significantly easier to determine.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 17:34:11
lol, you should really spare the Tom and golly speech. I'm making no more assumptions than anyone else here who's had a chance at reading a topic where you left a comment or two in ;P
There is no doubt in a perfect world such as the one you proclaim we should all aim to play in, War should only focus on DDing and leave the defensive mechanisms to other, more adequate, jobs or temp items, but the fact is we are now being offered different alternatives to what the "end of the line weappn" for war (or any other job) could be. Not to mention that for the longest time, Relics used to cover that role. Now it's a matter of choice and diversification.
Nobody (except Forever<3SamTanaka) would enjoy a game where 99.9% of the playerbase bandwagons the same job/setup. It's a good thing we have the undying QQ from DRKs to keep at least 1/20 of the jobs at that :P
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サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 211
By Odin.Almont 2012-01-17 17:36:42
When did I say anything about not having fun? About optimization? You specify "sheer damage output" as if WAR is there to do something else.
So then you weren't saying "WAR is only included in any given event to do the most damage it can in the shortest timeframe"? Also, your tone obviously conveys your opinion that while people are welcome to do whatever they want, they are obviously confused and wrong.
"Best weapon of the three" is an extremely subjective statement. Sometimes highest sheer damage output isn't the defining factor. Example: Not being able to put that output to full use. While Ukon has a higher potential damage output, that will remain only potential while the owner is lying dead and/or recovering from weakness.
Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-17 17:44:28
I already stated that Bravura is a utility weapon and the worst of the 3 in a dps aspect. That's literally the only thing Bravura has going for it.
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Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 17:49:55
I don't understand why people pose and or participate in these types of discussions when they don't want the answer. If one of the three weapons is going to be more fun for you, get it, but that doesn't change which weapon is better. Bravura's only noted benefit is that it allows you to full-time something that you don't need to full-time. That isn't the difference between a live WAR and a dead WAR, nor does it allow you to play more aggressively. With a lineup of poor healers, a Bravura WAR is going to die just the same as an Ukon WAR.
If you don't care to discuss which of the weapons is better for productivity, create a new thread. This isn't the place to argue about which weapon better suits your version of "fun"(emphasis on your version, because it's pretty rude to insinuate that optimization isn't a valid form of fun).
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 17:58:38
If you don't care to discuss which of the weapons is better for productivity, create a new thread.
There are better ways of stating an opinion whilst favoring discussion than this:
You specify "sheer damage output" as if WAR is there to do something else. Bravura's aftermath doesn't matter.
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Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 18:01:16
Fine. Disagree with the way I said something, to yourself. Don't set the stage for a seven-page tangent when I didn't actually say something that was invalid. Better yet, PM me! Then you can disagree with the way I said something true to your heart's content.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 18:03:43
And extend the nuisance? No thanks.
Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 18:12:51
You mean like you're doing right now?
If I was wrong, fine, correct me. If stating the truth offended you, fine, PM me. Stay on the actual topic or create a new outlet for what you're wanting to discuss.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 211
By Odin.Almont 2012-01-17 18:25:13
I don't understand why people pose and or participate in these types of discussions when they don't want the answer.
Right because, again, you are right and everyone else is wrong. Noted.
Bravura's only noted benefit is that it allows you to full-time something that you don't need to full-time.
I don't follow this- what does Bravura allow you to full-time that you "shouldn't need to full-time"? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking seriously so I can try to understand what you're meaning here.
That isn't the difference between a live WAR and a dead WAR, nor does it allow you to play more aggressively. With a lineup of poor healers, a Bravura WAR is going to die just the same as an Ukon WAR.
I'm going to disagree here, based upon my own experiences with this. We've got, at the moment, two Ukon WARs in my LS. I am able to be more aggressive for longer because the relic AM helps me out with our sometimes-less-than-optimal healers. This isn't an argument that Bravura > Ukon, simply that you're wrong in stating the AM makes no difference between a live WAR and a dead one.
If you don't care to discuss which of the weapons is better for productivity, create a new thread. This isn't the place to argue about which weapon better suits your version of "fun"(emphasis on your version, because it's pretty rude to insinuate that optimization isn't a valid form of fun).
Speaking of rude. Telling people to GTFO just because they disagree with your opinion is laughable when you're attempting to chide them for being rude. If optimizing is what you get the most fun out of, fine. Showing even a little understanding that other people's shells & event groups may not meet your standards would be nice.
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サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 18:26:22
I will remind you the one point you failed at recognizing and for which I decided to leave a comment:
If you don't care to discuss which of the weapons is better for productivity, create a new thread.
There are better ways of stating an opinion whilst favoring discussion than this:
You specify "sheer damage output" as if WAR is there to do something else. Bravura's aftermath doesn't matter.
That's pretty much it. Stop pretending to always have the best attitude on these forums when for the most part you always enjoy picking and teasing through the use of selected wording. I leave the seven-page tangent to yourself and your self aimed PMs.
Ramuh.Krizz
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2012-01-17 18:26:42
Enough.
Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-17 18:31:31
Just to clarify here.
DPS wise, Conqueror > Ukon > Bravura.
Anyone disagree with that? Getting kind of edgy in here from everything aside from the actual conversation.
Midgardsormr.Markers
サーバ: Midgardsormr
Game: FFXI
Posts: 114
By Midgardsormr.Markers 2012-01-17 18:32:41
Just pick the one that looks prettiest
Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 18:32:48
I'm going to disagree here, based upon my own experiences with this. We've got, at the moment, two Ukon WARs in my LS. I am able to be more aggressive for longer because the relic AM helps me out with our sometimes-less-than-optimal healers. This isn't an argument that Bravura > Ukon, simply that you're wrong in stating the AM makes no difference between a live WAR and a dead one.
Confirmation bias. 20% DT that contributes to the equipment cap isn't going to reliably keep you alive when you otherwise would have died. That's double-digits on melee attacks, and maybe a couple hundred on massive TP moves and spells, the latter two you're able to simply macro something in for more often than not.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 18:35:25
Bravura's only noted benefit is that it allows you to full-time something that you don't need to full-time.
I don't follow this- what does Bravura allow you to full-time that you "shouldn't need to full-time"? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking seriously so I can try to understand what you're meaning here.
Unless I forgot some pieces, this is what he was referring to:
Basically a fulltime capped -50% DT (including Metatron's AM) in the TP phase.
Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-17 18:35:40
Midgardsormr.Markers said: »Just pick the one that looks prettiest
So, conqueror.
/thread.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 211
By Odin.Almont 2012-01-17 18:37:26
Just to clarify here.
DPS wise, Conqueror > Ukon > Bravura.
No disagreement here. I'm not as into the math, but I mean, being able to keep AM3 up seems the obvious winner.
Since we've been told to keep on topic, all I can say is enjoy labeling factual experiences whatever you choose. Opinion =/= fact.
Edit: @Sheelay: Ah, ok. I remember seeing that, now.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2821
By Odin.Sheelay 2012-01-17 18:39:38
Midgardsormr.Markers said: »Just pick the one that looks prettiest
So, conqueror.
/thread.
I prefer Ukonvasara and your WAR isn't even 99. /thread ;p
Fenrir.Minjo
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1326
By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-01-17 18:41:03
That wasn't meant to be provocative. Confirmation bias is a real thing, and it certainly doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. 20% DT is a paltry amount of reduction most of the time, and isn't going to keep you alive when you would have otherwise died.
So with the nerf incoming for the ukon where does the Conqueror stand compared to the ukon?
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