Camlann's Torment

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2010-06-21
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Camlann's Torment
 Lakshmi.Aanalaty
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By Lakshmi.Aanalaty 2011-10-01 10:33:53  
Im calm, i just said what it does. Sea gorgets are about 2x as powerful as apathy which beats love anyway etc. Just stating the facts about the gear, im not YELLING AT YOU FFS OMGBBQ!!!!!1!!!1!

FYI on 'testing' gear swaps, this is a trap a LOT of people fall into. My buddy i helped get his 85 rhongo a few days ago and he went out and started messing around on bunnies. I got his gear list and stuck it in the calculator. His damage range was something like 1300+ minimum to i think ~2004 max. His tests had a 1400ish and a 1900 as min and max. What if he changed one piece of gear and did a 1950? He would immediately associate the bonus with the gear he changed. But in fact, he could have got a 2000+ in the old gear, but it would be REALLY rare.

Point is, 1300-2000 is a HUGE range, but completely normal. You cannot do a 'few' WS in 1 gearset and change a piece of gear that adjust the min and max damage by ~20 damage and expect to 'see' that change. The only way to test accurately would be to litterally do THOUSANDS of WS on the same mob in the same gear, then change ONE piece of gear and repeat. That is the only way to make the testing really have any value.

Or, you can just plug in the numbers to a calculator and save yourself hundreds of hours.

Very, very often, players will change a couple pieces of gear and 'see' a change. The fact is, the way damage is spit out in this game, there is a HUGE range for any damage you do so eyeballing damage is notoriously inaccurate. It sounds harsh to say that most peoples personal 'tests' are completely meaningless, but its the sad truth. Unless its a ranged attack (can cap atk and get the same number every time) or its a magic based skill (same number every time) then testing with a handful of observed numbers will not tell you anything.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-01 12:41:47  
Ragnarok.Amador said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Also, are you aware how small the increase to the WS in total would be in the event of a DA/TA proc ODD'ing?

lol

That avatar is very fitting for you.

Nevermind, you can't even do this test. DRG 37, awesome.

I almost can't believe this type of person still exists.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/WSC

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/FSTR
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 Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-10-01 19:49:31  
That calculator wouldn't factor in that the OP used Stalwarts Gambier and Champions Gambier -_-

I've always had my run in with ridiculous spikes in damage. Figured the ODD went off on a DA, or TA.

For a long while it was though, that the ideal method for something like Rhongomiant, was to use Camlann's then spam Drakesbane for ridiculous numbers in hopes that the ODD would proc off and you'd get a ridiculous 9k+

If ODD doesn't proc on the double attacks or triple attacks of a WS, then that's the first I've heard of it.

I personally do not spam Gambiers, or Tonics on monsters like this. However, I still can't say that even with the above calculations I can understand how this person pulled 9k+ Drakesbane. The calculations if anything imply he should of been lower. A lot lower. By at the very least 3k lower.

He also implies he's using RR VV Apoc.

So even further, the calculations don't make sense to me. Since he isn't using something like RR SS Apoc, lacking an additional 30% Critical Hit Damage inrease, which would of made a lot more sense.

Am I missing a special multiplier that should account for that 3k-4k damage I'm not seeing?

As far as Twashtar I figured it wouldn't be a noticeable increase from a THFs TA since Twashtar doesn't Crit. However I have also seen some high damage spikes with it.
 Ragnarok.Kyoshin
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By Ragnarok.Kyoshin 2011-10-01 23:03:27  
It is entirely possible to pull off absurd numbers on monsters in Visions-level areas on Drakesbane with the proper atma setup and, oh yeah, 25% damage bonus from a piercing weak target. This is even without a mythic/relic/empyrean. The significantly higher (depending on progress in trials, of course!) base DMG of the top-tier weapons tends to push the spikes of these weapons over the edge of the others, of course. Ryunohige even gets that lovely damage bonus but that's for another topic.

Speaking from experience, since I didn't have access to any Aftermath until April 30th of this year, I can guarantee you that there has not been any increase in the frequency of my WS spike damage as a result of this weapon. Even potential increase in average damage is within the boundaries of the DMG increase and SE's random number generator.

tl;dr: ODD doesn't affect weapon skill damage. Drakesbane is just an absurd critical hit WS.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-01 23:49:16  
Ragnarok.Amador said: »
That calculator wouldn't factor in that the OP used Stalwarts Gambier and Champions Gambier -_-

I've always had my run in with ridiculous spikes in damage. Figured the ODD went off on a DA, or TA.

For a long while it was though, that the ideal method for something like Rhongomiant, was to use Camlann's then spam Drakesbane for ridiculous numbers in hopes that the ODD would proc off and you'd get a ridiculous 9k+

If ODD doesn't proc on the double attacks or triple attacks of a WS, then that's the first I've heard of it.

I personally do not spam Gambiers, or Tonics on monsters like this. However, I still can't say that even with the above calculations I can understand how this person pulled 9k+ Drakesbane. The calculations if anything imply he should of been lower. A lot lower. By at the very least 3k lower.

He also implies he's using RR VV Apoc.

So even further, the calculations don't make sense to me. Since he isn't using something like RR SS Apoc, lacking an additional 30% Critical Hit Damage inrease, which would of made a lot more sense.

Am I missing a special multiplier that should account for that 3k-4k damage I'm not seeing?

As far as Twashtar I figured it wouldn't be a noticeable increase from a THFs TA since Twashtar doesn't Crit. However I have also seen some high damage spikes with it.

wat

The link to pDIF calculation most certainly does allow one to account for the increases. You not understanding how this game's predictable damage formula works doesn't mean that they or I am are wrong, and it certainly doesn't mean you're allowed to pretend that my not playing DRG has any influence on my understanding of what its capable of.

tl;dr- there's no crime in not understanding how ***works, but don't try to refute what others say based on nothing but anecdotal nonsense.
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 Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-10-02 04:08:44  
"tl;dr" this is why you didn't read the part where the poster of the screen shot didn't originally state that he had used those items.

Therefore, if he never stated he used those items. Then how would those calculations appear correct if you're missing that bit of information?

No one is refuting calculations, or calculators to figure out potential WS damage under ideal conditions. It's the fact that the words: Stalwart's Gambier, and Champion's Gambier were missing. Which would of resulted in a: Ok.

As for the you playing DRG bit, it was so you could sit in abyssea, drakesbaning crap untill you hit 9k out of the blue, on a EP Visions NM. Which wouldn't have happened. Unless of course, you used the drinks like the OP stated he did. Simple.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-10-02 04:59:05  
Ragnarok.Amador said: »
As for the you playing DRG bit, it was so you could sit in abyssea, drakesbaning crap untill you hit 9k out of the blue, on a EP Visions NM. Which wouldn't have happened. Unless of course, you used the drinks like the OP stated he did. Simple.

Firstly, it's a Visions NM. At this point it's a bit of a stretch to think you aren't capping attack on stuff like Piasa. Stalwart is +attack/accuracy, if they're already capped then yes, you will indeed see those numbers (albeit less often without Champion's). We all know you're backpedaling after pulling the "don't have a job leveled" card, don't worry.

Ragnarok.Amador said: »
Therefore, if he never stated he used those items. Then how would those calculations appear correct if you're missing that bit of information?

Even if he doesn't mention it, you can at the very least assume attack is higher than natural value if it exceeds the numbers on paper. Simple addition.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-02 11:46:18  
And that's why you mocked me for telling you that an ODD proc wouldn't have resulted in that large of a damage increase? Not assuming that they were nearly/fully pDIF capped would have been silly, and further assuming that it hadn't crit in its entirety would have been equally silly.

Allow me to give you some advice as someone who frequently jumps the not-so-nice gun in regard to things I thought I was more familiar with than I actually was: learn how to say, "Oops, I *** up".
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 Carbuncle.Dimi
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By Carbuncle.Dimi 2012-04-14 08:15:35  
Sorry for the necrobump... didn't want to make a new thread.
I'm working on this weapon... I would like to maximize CT as much as possible...
I threw this together out of gear I currently own and a couple pieces I expect to pick up (gorget, terrasoul ring), any suggestions as to what would make for better CTs?



I would really love to learn about weaponskill damage calculations but it gives me a headache anytime I start. I also have Wyrm Greaves +2 (VIT+7 STR+7 Attack+7), would it be better? I don't know when it's appropriate to sacrifice VIT/Attack/STR in favor of the others... Is priority mostly VIT>attack>STR?

I know I'm hopelessly ignorant... but I'd like to get the most I can out of this weaponskill when I use it!
 Ragnarok.Lenneth
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By Ragnarok.Lenneth 2012-04-14 09:30:14  
It's poo so there's not a whole lot you can do for it sadly.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-04-14 10:49:30  
Ragnarok.Lenneth said: »
It's poo so there's not a whole lot you can do for it sadly.
This pretty much. That being said, that is a pretty good Camlann's set there.

While there are potential improvements, they tend to be rare/expensive.

I think this'd be an ideal Camlann's set. Vs high lvl targets.

For lower lvl mobs, swap back to ele gorget/belt.

But even with a near perfect camlann's set, stardiver(and even drakes) leave camlann's far behind in dmg. It's really just to trigger AM3. And maybe self SC.

Putting that set together was kinda fun. <,<
 Carbuncle.Dimi
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By Carbuncle.Dimi 2012-04-14 16:39:03  
I know it's never going to be an Ukko's Fury... and of course it's not going to be my go-to weaponskill, but of course I plan to use it for at least double light, and for aftermath... From what I've read, it's not as garbagey as I thought it was when I first decided to make the weapon, I just want to maximize it's damage potential.

Thanks for the set, Martel, it seems to sacrifice a lot of VIT... that's what I'm concerned about... when is it appropriate to sacrifice VIT in favor of STR/Attack?
I'm planning to do some neo-nyzul with some friends... if we are successful, those pieces may be within my reach... Not sure about the feet, are those from legion or voidwatch? (do we know, yet? I couldn't find anything on bgwiki) I haven't done any provenance, yet, so I don't know how feasible drachenhorn is for me. What would you augment the moonshade earring with? I can't think of anything I'd put on it that would be good for CT... TP bonus would only affect the ignores-defense.

Aanalaty, can I get your input? What would you say is a good CT set? And what order do you prioritize VIT, STR, and Attack? Oh and also for my set... I have Ogier's Breeches (acc+20, atk+20, ws dmg +3%) would that outdo empy+2 legs?
 Ragnarok.Lenneth
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By Ragnarok.Lenneth 2012-04-14 17:02:33  
I hardly even use Camlann's for the aftermath unless I manage to get 300% TP. It's just not worth the loss of damage for the occasional aftermath proc unless you get 300% TP. It is nice to start out a long-ish fight with it though.
I deeply regret wasting the time to make my Rhongomiant and am in the process of making a Gungnir. I really wish they could do something to make Camlann's better but it's just so hard to beat Drakesbane in abyssea and Stardiver outside abyssea.
I agree with gearing it as best as you can though. If you're going to use it you might as well make sure it hurts as much as possible. I simply want you to be aware that it does suck so don't expect great numbers.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-04-14 17:54:41  
The moonshade would be atk/tp bonus. And yes, it'd only affect the ignores def. But Camlann's Ignores def effect starts out at a pathetic 15% at 100% scaling to 50% at 300%. Against anything of a high lvl, the TP bonus will help.

And you Need the atk on high lvl mobs. Barring maybe /war(berserk)+chaos roll+stalwarts. But I'm not running a whole new set to check that right now.

The only notable loss of vit here, is going ares -> phorcys. But phorcys wins hands down, even on low lvl mobs. It's got huge str/atk+ and the ws dmg+ is +7%. It's ridiculous.

Your set has +74 VIT(assuming a 90 rhongo) +48 STR and +107 ATK.

The new set has +72 VIT, 73 STR, and 134 ATK(+the +10% from Drachen/phorcys body) Also, 5 of the str/vit is from the phorcys set bonus.(Note that FFXIAH isn't totaling the stats from new gear correctly in the set listing.)

I'm not about to figure you're exact atk, but I'd expect that +10% to yield at least 70~ ATK. Bringing it up to 200+ atk. That's huge.

Against high lvl mobs, that atk makes a big difference.

And I'm not pulling these gear choices outta my ***. I've been running these sets through the DRG DPS spreadsheet. The new set was 9%~ ws dmg ahead on high lvl mobs(pil), and 8% ahead on low lvl fodder.

Vs, low lvl trash mobs, a few of the gear choices would change. The value of atk(and mooshade's TP bonus) would be diminished, so some of the pure atk+ options would be swapped out.

Belt and neck would go back to ele belt/gorget. Moonshade to +4 vit earring. The rest stays the same.

So, this set vs low lvl mobs, or under mass atk buffs. Maybe on 300% TP too.

I'm not saying any of these are simple/cheap options, but there's very little else better than what you're using. An update or two ago, your set would have been pretty much the best.

(btw, Ogier's legs would lose in both your, and my sets. whether vs high/low def mobs.)
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 Carbuncle.Dimi
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By Carbuncle.Dimi 2012-04-14 18:50:20  
Ah, yeah, I forgot about FFXIAH not showing stats from new gear, I just looked at the total and saw it much lower. 2 VIT is nothing for all the other stuff your set adds!

Thanks a lot for your input! Now I have some major work to do. ;)

BTW, those feet... vw or legion?

Ohh and where's this DPS spreadsheet? I have an old spreadsheet that's probably hella outdated (ffxi melee dmg comparator) but I haven't really used it. I'd love to plug some gear into a spreadsheet and find out what works best with the gear I currently own on CT, Drakes, and Stardiver.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-04-14 19:21:22  
FFXI DPS at google docs

Where the abjuration for those feet come from is currently unknown. I would guess legion.
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 Carbuncle.Burkey
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By Carbuncle.Burkey 2012-07-13 23:36:21  
necro:

friend just finished her 85, gonna go mess around with it in aby...


i gave this a quick skim but unless i missed it: best atmas?
 Leviathan.Korialstrasz
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By Leviathan.Korialstrasz 2012-07-14 00:07:15  
RR/GH/apoc, spam drakesbane.
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 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2012-07-14 00:11:05  
300% TP -> Camlann's -> Drakesbane. When aftermath wears, repeat.
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2012-07-14 07:01:27  
GH?
I'd use SS or VV over GH on DRG.
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