The Problem With Democracy..

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2010-06-21
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The problem with democracy..
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 22:18:46  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
This guy got a lot of it right: How does the Patriot Act Violate the Constitution?
Well, those issues arent even due process issues. The first one is saying that you can't restrict his speech. I'd have to read the case briefing to see exactly how. Anyways, I'm mainly talking about spying and wiretaping which are due process issues.
Yeah trying to research this part atm:
Quote:
While a district court subsequently found section 2709 of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act unconstitutional, the Act itself has been affirmed to be constitutional, and has since been reaffirmed by the congress.

The thing I both love and hate about law is the fact that a lot of issues of constitutionality are arguments that almost have nothing at all to do with the true issue. A lot of times it violates a part of the constitution that wasn't even meant to address that issue.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 22:21:30  
Phoenix.Excelior said:

The thing I both love and hate about law is the fact that a lot of issues of constitutionality are arguments that almost have nothing at all to do with the true issue. A lot of times it violates a part of the constitution that wasn't even meant to address that issue.
Are you talking about how law enforcement abuses their power to bust average citizens for stupid ***, rather than catch terrorists?
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 22:25:01  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
The thing I both love and hate about law is the fact that a lot of issues of constitutionality are arguments that almost have nothing at all to do with the true issue. A lot of times it violates a part of the constitution that wasn't even meant to address that issue.
Are you talking about how law enforcement abuses their power to bust average citizens for stupid ***, rather than catch terrorists?

No. I'm talking about how a lot of times when a law is found unconstituional it is on a basis other than the intended part of the law. Let me think of an example...... I'll post it shortly.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 22:33:30  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
The thing I both love and hate about law is the fact that a lot of issues of constitutionality are arguments that almost have nothing at all to do with the true issue. A lot of times it violates a part of the constitution that wasn't even meant to address that issue.
Are you talking about how law enforcement abuses their power to bust average citizens for stupid ***, rather than catch terrorists?
No. I'm talking about how a lot of times when a law is found unconstituional it is on a basis other than the intended part of the law. Let me think of an example...... I'll post it shortly.

Mabury v. Madison. the most famous law case of all time

Mabury was a man who was appointed as justice of the peace by President John Adams.

John Marshall was secretary of state at the time and it was his job to deliver the commission to Mabury. He instead left it on his desk.

The next day President Jefferson took office and James Madison was the new Secretary of State. James Madison did not want to deliver the commission to Marbury because Jefferson hated John Adams.

Mabury Sued James Madison in the supreme court asking for a Write of Mandamus(This is a court ruling that a person must carry out a duty).
Mabury asserted that it was unconsitutional for Madison to not do his job and deliver the commmission. The issue here was whether or not Madison was obligated to do his job.

Supreme Chief Justice John Marshall(The irony here is that the same man who didn't deliver the commission when he was Secretary of State is now Chief Justice, I wonder if that had an effect)ruled that the right to sue Madison in the supreme court violated the consitutionality of a law which gave the Supreme Court original jurisdiction over these cases. The constiution only expressly gives original jurisdiction to the supreme court in merit time cases(Sea law in international waters)

So basically this case was decided on an issue that wasn't even part the original case. If you're a law student you'd know that this case also established Judical Review.
 Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-10-05 22:45:26  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.

I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 22:49:29  
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.

no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
 Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-10-05 22:56:49  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.

no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 23:22:53  
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?

Ok lets read the text of the constitution:

4th Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized.

No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause.

5th Amendment

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;"

Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS.

DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE.

Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 23:46:57  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?

Ok lets read the text of the constitution:

4th Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized.

No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause.

5th Amendment

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;"

Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS.

DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE.

Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
You are ignoring the fact that the Bill of Rights are amendments (1-10) of the constitution.

You're are quoting the amendments out of context in regards to the articles of the constitution.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 23:49:20  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?
Ok lets read the text of the constitution: 4th Amendment The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized. No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause. 5th Amendment "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;" Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS. DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE. Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
You are ignoring the fact that the Bill of Rights are amendments (1-10) of the constitution. You're are quoting the amendments out of context in regards to the articles of the constitution.

Find where in the articles it addresses any rights. The articles list enurmurated, concurrent, and implied powers of the federal government and state interactions.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 23:59:44  
I'll be back in the morning to go over the constitution with you. Too tired at the moment.
 Siren.Catabolic
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By Siren.Catabolic 2010-10-06 00:01:40  
Leviathan.Narrubia said:
I haven't carefully read every post in this thread, so excuse me if this point has already been adressed.

Imposing knowledge restrictions on voting may improve many of a country's decisions, but it also has the potential to worsen the wealth gap. Hopefully I can make the assumption that wealth is correlated with knowledge (since more money can afford better education, and less urgent need to make money means more time for education). With this pretty basic assumption, wouldn't the poor have (relative to now) less say in the country's decisions than the rich, thus allowing the rich to swing the laws even further in their favor? Obviously, this is not universal - there would be some hobos well-informed enough to vote and some millionaires who couldn't vote - but overall, the favor would swing to the rich.

Well, obviously sometimes poverty causes ignorance, and sometimes stupidity causes poverty. But even if we assume that all poor people are stupid, this simply allows the intelligent and informed citizenship to pass rules that further dehumanize those of lesser intelligence until they become little more than animals.

Perhaps I've exaggerated my points a bit, but I don't think that you could pass a voting restriction like this and expect to see nothing of this sort. The wealth gap would invariably widen and the unintelligent would inevitably have their (other) rights infringed upon.

As a solution, you might be able to impose voting restrictions on some matters, but not on others. This, however, would require more thought than I'm willing to commit to at 7:10 am on Monday.

This is exactly why the voting system should remain as is. There are plenty of places in America where the residents have no access to the knowledge due to their financial situation or the financial situation in their community.

If people are so quick to take others votes away instead of taking the initiative to inform said people then it was never an idea created with equality in mind. Sadly in many cases the more money you have equals the amount of knowledge you have access to. There are some exceptions.
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-10-06 00:28:11  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?

Ok lets read the text of the constitution:

4th Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized.

No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause.

5th Amendment

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;"

Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS.

DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE.

Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
you obviously don't know how to read the constitution because the 4th amendment covers it, learn to read jackass
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-06 00:52:17  
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?
Ok lets read the text of the constitution: 4th Amendment The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized. No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause. 5th Amendment "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;" Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS. DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE. Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
you obviously don't know how to read the constitution because the 4th amendment covers it, learn to read jackass

It really doesn't. I even looked in several of my 20 Law books from the years of law classes I've had to take, you know, that might just sort of kinda of maybe know what I'm talking about. Here I'll give you a paragraph the book on the matter:

"The Fourth Amendment also allows searches without warrants. Indeed, most arrests, searches, and seizures occur without warrants. However, those undertaken without warrants must not be "unreasonable," under the Fourth Amendment - Deciding just waht is unreasonable is the duty of a judge. The tension between individual rights and protecting society results in an ever-evolving process. Time is often a factor in the court's reckoning on whether the police should get a search warrant or just go ahead and do the search."

I didn't even need the book because I know how to read. Clearly the wording of that sentence is separated by an AND. Lets go to the grammer dictionary:

AND: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.

Look at this sentence:

"The right of hte people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issues, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This then reads based on our little friend "and" :

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, Also no warrrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath of affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. "

Let me dumb it down a bit further for you:

"The right of the people to have their persons, houses, papers and effects, protected from unreasonable searches and seizures can not be violated."

Dumbing down the second part for you:

"No Warrants shall be issued, unless you have probable cause, have taken an oath or affirmation supporting this cause, and if you describe the place you're searching and the persons or things you're trying to seize."

While those two sentence are in the same Amendment they are seperate clauses. The fact it is divided by the word AND shows that they are related but not dependent on one another. If they were dependent on one another it would look like this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasoanble searches and seizures shall not be violated, unless by warrent, issued only upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."


 Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-10-06 02:26:53  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?
Ok lets read the text of the constitution: 4th Amendment The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized. No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause. 5th Amendment "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;" Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS. DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE. Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
you obviously don't know how to read the constitution because the 4th amendment covers it, learn to read jackass

It really doesn't. I even looked in several of my 20 Law books from the years of law classes I've had to take, you know, that might just sort of kinda of maybe know what I'm talking about. Here I'll give you a paragraph the book on the matter:

"The Fourth Amendment also allows searches without warrants. Indeed, most arrests, searches, and seizures occur without warrants. However, those undertaken without warrants must not be "unreasonable," under the Fourth Amendment - Deciding just waht is unreasonable is the duty of a judge. The tension between individual rights and protecting society results in an ever-evolving process. Time is often a factor in the court's reckoning on whether the police should get a search warrant or just go ahead and do the search."

I didn't even need the book because I know how to read. Clearly the wording of that sentence is separated by an AND. Lets go to the grammer dictionary:

AND: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.

Look at this sentence:

"The right of hte people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issues, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This then reads based on our little friend "and" :

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, Also no warrrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath of affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. "

Let me dumb it down a bit further for you:

"The right of the people to have their persons, houses, papers and effects, protected from unreasonable searches and seizures can not be violated."

Dumbing down the second part for you:

"No Warrants shall be issued, unless you have probable cause, have taken an oath or affirmation supporting this cause, and if you describe the place you're searching and the persons or things you're trying to seize."

While those two sentence are in the same Amendment they are seperate clauses. The fact it is divided by the word AND shows that they are related but not dependent on one another. If they were dependent on one another it would look like this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasoanble searches and seizures shall not be violated, unless by warrent, issued only upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."


matter of interpretation and I reserve my right to disagree.
 Cerberus.Nostylin
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By Cerberus.Nostylin 2010-10-06 02:27:59  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. simply put a court ordered warrant, regardless of the legal ramifications of anything found this way, to give the government free disclosure to invade people's homes on a single whim violates individual rights, under the guise of safety.
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Ok, well if they get warrents and have probable cause then you answered your own question: It's not unconstitutional. Congrats. Sure there might be violations in particular cases but those violations are a function of the people executing the law not the law itself.
the simple fact that the act bypasses the need for a warrant, makes it unconstitutional, weren't you paying attention?
Ok lets read the text of the constitution: 4th Amendment The right of the people to be secure in the persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, AND no Warants shall issue, but upon the probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized. No where in that text does it mandate a warrent. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures. It does not define what is unreasonable. It does not say you need a warrent. That AND signifys a different clause. 5th Amendment "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without the due process of law;" Ok this simply says that you have to follow the due process of law before you can take somebody's ***or freedoms. This DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT DUE PROCESS IS. DUE PROCESS AND WARRENTS ARE DEFINED BY LAW KNOWN AS PRECEDURAL LAW AND IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE REQUIREMENT OF A WARRENT FOR SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS DEFINED BY PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. IF THE PATRIOT ACT SAYS THAT NO WARRENT IS NEEDED THE PATRIOT ACT IS VIOLATING PROCEDURAL LAW AND NOT THE CONSTITUION. THE ONLY PART OF THE PATRIOT ACT THAT CAN VIOLATE THE CONSTITION IN THE CONTEXT OF SEARCHES AND SEIZURES IS IF IT WAS DONE UNREASONABLY AND EVEN THIS ISN'T DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND IS UP TO THE DECISION OF PROCEDURAL LAW OR A JUDGE. Dear god pay the *** attention. It is not a constitutional issue.
you obviously don't know how to read the constitution because the 4th amendment covers it, learn to read jackass

It really doesn't. I even looked in several of my 20 Law books from the years of law classes I've had to take, you know, that might just sort of kinda of maybe know what I'm talking about. Here I'll give you a paragraph the book on the matter:

"The Fourth Amendment also allows searches without warrants. Indeed, most arrests, searches, and seizures occur without warrants. However, those undertaken without warrants must not be "unreasonable," under the Fourth Amendment - Deciding just waht is unreasonable is the duty of a judge. The tension between individual rights and protecting society results in an ever-evolving process. Time is often a factor in the court's reckoning on whether the police should get a search warrant or just go ahead and do the search."

I didn't even need the book because I know how to read. Clearly the wording of that sentence is separated by an AND. Lets go to the grammer dictionary:

AND: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.

Look at this sentence:

"The right of hte people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issues, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This then reads based on our little friend "and" :

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, Also no warrrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath of affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. "

Let me dumb it down a bit further for you:

"The right of the people to have their persons, houses, papers and effects, protected from unreasonable searches and seizures can not be violated."

Dumbing down the second part for you:

"No Warrants shall be issued, unless you have probable cause, have taken an oath or affirmation supporting this cause, and if you describe the place you're searching and the persons or things you're trying to seize."

While those two sentence are in the same Amendment they are seperate clauses. The fact it is divided by the word AND shows that they are related but not dependent on one another. If they were dependent on one another it would look like this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasoanble searches and seizures shall not be violated, unless by warrent, issued only upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."


i agree with neither side.
 
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 Siren.Ilax
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By Siren.Ilax 2010-10-06 03:34:43  
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
i would absolutely love a poll test, where you would have to demonstrate reasonable knowledge of current events before you were allowed to walk in and pull the lever

Your poll test would fail all the way, because most of time is all about the ignorance of ppl and this catch up the smartest one to the dumbest one...


http://www.mainstreet.com/slideshow/family/family-health/shocking-stories-er said:

'How about $129 for a mucous recovery system? That's a box of Kleenex,'

Idk how you can blame citizen and not GOV itself for hiding information, make you beleive a false fact, or saying something simple more complex then it should be.

Of course, is they choice to tell citizen they want import sodium chloride or just tell them they want import damn SALT.

same as you can point Ben Laden to be an evil, but when you research more about it, find out that guy got training by CIA:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/binladen_cia.html

Saddam Hussein was another BS like that wich i can't really find the info...

No matter if citizen are smart or not, wont change anything if most of the crucial info is alway hidden, and is even more silly of you blaming this on the honest citizen voting.

*CNN, FOX ect. are disinformation/Brain wash + formation how we dicted to be....*

If is again what you think is 'reasonable knowledge of current events'

My 5 cent.
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-06 08:25:18  
Asura.Catastrophe said:
I just think its weird that a "pro-small government" party would support a "pro-big government" bill. I'm not of either party. I'm just pointing out irregularities.

It has to do with the extremes of both sides of the political spectrum.

On the left:
-Extremes of communism, socialism
-Extremes of government involvment in every aspect of life
-Extremes of centralized unitary government instead of federal
-Foriegn policy based on Realist International Relations Theory

On the right:
-Extremes of authoriatarian, facism
-Extremes of heavy military involvment
-Extremes of decentralized government except for military
-Foriegn policy based on Liberal International Relations Theory

Basically the right believes that the ends justify the means when it comes to national security, and the left believes the ends justify the means when it comes to economic security. (Most people are in the middle where a logical human being would be)
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