The Problem With Democracy..

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2010-06-21
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The problem with democracy..
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-09-03 23:26:24  
Valefor.Tarl said:
The Founding Fathers of the United States rarely praised and often criticized democracy, which in their time tended to specifically mean direct democracy; James Madison argued, especially in The Federalist No. 10, that what distinguished a democracy from a republic was that the former became weaker as it got larger and suffered more violently from the effects of faction, whereas a republic could get stronger as it got larger and combats faction by its very structure. This country was founded as a republic, as a democracy we are slowly destroying this country. As far as who should be allowed to vote, if your a citizen then it's your right to vote whether your an idiot or not, doesn't make much difference really which vote to make in my opinion, they are all evil, rotton, sobs. The one thing that gave the people the power to keep their government in check has been infringed, the 2nd amendment. As to the Bible remarks above, this book is very large & complex, but with some time, research & common sense it can be understood with ease, it was written by men not God, it has been translated, some books even omitted, but for every rule law or story in the Bible there are another dozen areas to confirm it. Also you don't always take every word literally as it would mean today, also some of the translations in this book from Hebrew to English are very poor, like this one,(On the first "day" God created the Heavens & the Earth) if you took that literally, then yes this book makes no sense & your an idiot. The word day here was a very weak & poor translation. Another translation would be, (On the first "age" God created the heavens & the earth) with a little common sense it becomes more clear. The New Testament did not "overrule" the Old, unless otherwise specifically mentioned, like having many wives or making sacrifices on alters.

I think you're confusing words here.

Democracy: Government by people in which citizens
vote directly or indirectly on the issues and hold frequent elections.

Direct Democracy: Government in which all people vote
on all issues directly.

Representative Democracy: Government in which people vote on
representatives who in turn vote for their interests.

Republic: synonymous of Representative Democracy.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it's using the wrong words. Perhaps what you're trying to say, is that the act of voting on representatives is undermining the actual work of a democracy. I would agree in the opinion that politics are now no longer about the TRUE definition of politics: The debate over how government should be run, and the distribution of limited resources.
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By 2010-09-03 23:38:39
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-09-03 23:44:39  
Asura.Catastrophe said:
Asura.Catastrophe said:
It should be noted that democracy does not equal freedom, as the majority can vote in tyranny theoretically.

Such a majority could never exist. The momment such a majority does a nation ceases to be. What we would then have is a state divided into two or more nations. Fragmentation will simply lead to disolution or civil war. Popular Sovereignty is the source of all government power for the last 200 some years. Oppression is pretty much impossible unless people are too weak willed to care. Assuming that's the case then they deserve their fate.
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-09-04 02:20:01  
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in

"i read today" really? from where? and is the source credible?
Note: Fox "News" isn't credible.

Also we never were a "true" democracy but a representive one.
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 Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-09-04 02:23:21  
Phoenix.Degs said:
Asura.Catastrophe said:
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in

Definition of democracy. Go.

It should be noted that democracy does not equal freedom, as the majority can vote in tyranny theoretically.

I agree with you that it doesnt equal freedom, however our way of life/government was created for the sole purpose of serving the people, its just not like that, and i think you would agree that more and more of our civil liberties are being taken away, with these people in our government scaring the american public to death with threats of terrorism and the like

Name three things you can't do today that you could do 2 years ago.
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 Lakshmi.Maasahn
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By Lakshmi.Maasahn 2010-09-04 08:29:28  
just my opinion, nothing more, and nothing less. plus i only read through 3/4 of page one so after that i got bored and posted my thoughts from there.



Natural selection filter!!!! go!

If society would allow the stupid to take natural course and die out b/c of their stupidity the you would only have the strong/smart left over. but society as a whole is the only think keeping the stupid alive.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-09-04 11:26:09  
I'm facepalming at the guy who said the 2nd amendment is free speech. Especially when you consider this thread was an argument about people who understand politics.

Any of you think we are a dictatorship really don't understand.

Being dictator requires some of the following things:

-Declared state of emergency
-Removing Habeas Corpus
-Stopping of elections
-Stopping of congressional debate
-Additional Executive powers beyond the scope of the office

Basically if Obama shut down the other two branches then it would be a dicatorship. Truth is if he steps out of line the supreme court will hammer him. Why do you think there are so many lawsuits regarding healthcare, and imigration?


What has truly changed in America is how media portrays politics. There used to be a time when politics could get angry and excited but it was generally civil. You have idiots like Micheal Moore, Glenn Beck, Ed of the Ed show,
Sean Hannity etc, who's entire purpose is to get people pissed off about politics. They're doing it correctly. Unfortunately the reprecussions are going to end up ruining a generation's political views as we become unaccepting of different ideas.
 Caitsith.Jar
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By Caitsith.Jar 2010-09-08 04:11:29  
I don't see any form of intelligence test ever being use in the US to portray voting eligibility. Mainly after it was used so freely in our countries past to disallow a whole race voting rights.

Though it being instated would vastly target one political party not because parties are separated from the information but do not even go looking for it. Our news is so filtered left or right, that the truly informed are far and few. The fox news hoards would know nothing but what fox news wants them to know maybe that, in itself would make News corporations not pick and choose what they feel as right and wrong over going neutral and, actually explaining what is happening.

Also a large flaw in our political force is that religious morals are upheld to the full extent even in court where morals are substituted by our constitution where as our fundamental rights over bound any moral obligation to a religion.

i could go on but meh..
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2010-09-08 05:11:33  
The left has the advantage of technology and informing its constituents. The right has the advantage of bat ***crazies willing to jump on the next Beck bandwagon.

Sadly I don't see our political system finding any middle ground at this point. At least not until news media outlets are held accountable for misleading the public with their mix of entertainment and news. Embellishment leads to great ratings but really *** people up. Especially people who are uninformed and bat ***crazy in the first place.

Honestly when you look at the past few months of retardism, these town hall meetings and teabagger protests.. How many of those redneck morons do you think actually understood the implications of the health care bill or the bailouts and brought up those issues in an informed fassion as opposed to religious nuts that heard "death camps" and "socialism" before they crawled out of their wellfare endorsed double wide free ride to go spread their message of misinformation and panic.

Stupidity snowballs.
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 Ifrit.Kungfuhustle
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-09-08 05:14:53  
Democracy? America has Democracy? Of course men are created equal, they're all old white men who refuse to give up the sway of power to anyone, and they hate every other race equally.
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By Shiva.Droolingdaisy 2010-09-12 03:37:31  
I didn't bother reading past the OP, cause I'm sure its a bunch of useless arguments. However that is not the problem with democracy. The problem with democracy is the same problem as all governments. Be it authoritarian, communism, democracy, etc. And this problem is people. No matter the government people will create problems. There is absolutely no way of avoiding this in our species...at least not any time soon. Everyone just wants to blame others when things go wrong. Stop pointing fingers at others beliefs, religions, governments, etc. When something goes bad start examining yourself, this is the only way to harmony.
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 Bahamut.Stanflame
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By Bahamut.Stanflame 2010-10-05 19:46:58  
/sigh
 Ramuh.Bigdawgrr
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By Ramuh.Bigdawgrr 2010-10-05 20:48:56  
 Ramuh.Thunderz
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-10-05 20:56:04  
no system is perfect.



That is all you need to know
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By Bahamut.Stanflame 2010-10-05 21:04:39  
Ramuh.Thunderz said:
no system is perfect.



That is all you need to know
 
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 21:19:58  
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in

What's up Glen Beck? Didn't know you trolled these forums.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 21:21:34  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in
What's up Glen Beck? Didn't know you trolled these forums.

If he said that the second amendment was free speech then I am highly disturbed. The second amendment is the right to bear arms.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 21:27:01  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in
What's up Glen Beck? Didn't know you trolled these forums.

If he said that the second amendment was free speech then I am highly disturbed. The second amendment is the right to bear arms.
That's how he rolls on the internet. Everyone expects him to talk crazy, but on the internet he needs a little bait, IE: talking about the 2nd amendment as if it were about free speech.

Although the guy with the gun generally gets to say what he wants :P
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 21:30:05  
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act:

1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts.

2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered.

3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear.

4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves.

5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
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 Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-10-05 21:35:29  
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in
"i read today" really? from where? and is the source credible? Note: Fox "News" isn't credible. Also we never were a "true" democracy but a representive one.

It isn't credible according to who, YOU?? Ok then, what sources should we go by? CNN? MSNBC? CNBC? All liberal channels that do not report on the issues. Keep one thing in mind, if you don't think there are some serious problems in the US then you are ignorant. This adiministration has robbed the treasury from what was already a huge deficit (3 trillion to 13????), taken over healthcare which is a huge mistake (take it from someone in medicine), working on cap and trade and redistribution of wealth, and the list goes on and on. LOL, I'm sick of retards supporting what is destroying one of the greatest nations on Earth!
anyone with a brain and who knows how to use it? Anyone who takes anyone of the news commenter on fox as intelligent people needs their brain examined, or quite frankly a swift kick to the skull. Mainly Beck, but that should go without saying
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2010-10-05 21:43:19  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act:

1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts.

2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered.

3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear.

4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves.

5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 21:54:50  
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Degs said:
currently we arent even a democracy anymore, with obama's czarist regime, and the patriot act, our civil liberties and constitution are a way of the past... we have no say so in governmental affairs... and its just getting worse every day, i read today that, the information czar wants to ban conspiracy theorists, and re-write the 2nd amendment of free speech, saying that people can say what they want, as long as its not against the government, or anything to do with conspiracy against the government....what a world we live in
"i read today" really? from where? and is the source credible? Note: Fox "News" isn't credible. Also we never were a "true" democracy but a representive one.
It isn't credible according to who, YOU?? Ok then, what sources should we go by? CNN? MSNBC? CNBC? All liberal channels that do not report on the issues. Keep one thing in mind, if you don't think there are some serious problems in the US then you are ignorant. This adiministration has robbed the treasury from what was already a huge deficit (3 trillion to 13????), taken over healthcare which is a huge mistake (take it from someone in medicine), working on cap and trade and redistribution of wealth, and the list goes on and on. LOL, I'm sick of retards supporting what is destroying one of the greatest nations on Earth!
anyone with a brain and who knows how to use it? Anyone who takes anyone of the news commenter on fox as intelligent people needs their brain examined, or quite frankly a swift kick to the skull. Mainly Beck, but that should go without saying

All news channels are biased. End of story. Why do you think they changed their classifications to entertainment networks?

1. The deficit was 10 Trillion when Obama became President.

2. Spending money to bail out AIG and other instituions has reported a net profit for the tax payer. A lot of this recovery is investment based and will not be instantly felt. Years down the road if these instituions stabilize then we will most definately make a profit.

3. People constantly demand instant solutions to massive problems. Sadly there aren't instant solutions to most "real" problems. I'm sure the most complex problem the average american idiot trys to solve is balancing the family budget. Obviously based on all the defaults from home owners a lot of families can't even do that correctly.

4. Obama is not responsible for government spending. All tax payer money goes through congress and is put into earmark projects inside of bills. Obama's only failure is that he didn't veto the bill due to this spending. However, if he had vetoed the bill he would have lost all the work on the bill and no good at all would have come.

5. The health care bill is an expansion of government power. This is particularly concerning because I like having freedom when it comes to healthcare. This bill limits choices for state government workers because the state governments opt to drop private insurance in favor of the government plan. This could result in the loss of your prefered doctor, however, you do not have to be a state employee. (A job is not a fundamental right, maybe states should just fire you in order to balance their budget)

6. Most of the public still doesn't know the ins and outs of the healthcare bill. I'm sure as hell not reading 1000 pages, so while it is very easy to say its bad I seriously doubt much is known about the practical effect of the law. (interpretation is important)

7. America isn't being destroyed by the government. Everyone in america has the power to vote people in and out of congress. If you don't like harry reid or nancy pelosi then toss their *** out. Considering they're still there then you must consider:
1. Their constituients like them. OR
2. Their constituients don't care.

Assuming either of those is the case then the failure of America or the government is subject to the oversight of the citizens. So yea, the citizens are ruining america. Now if you consider that the American government is "For the people and by the people" then you can conclude that the government must be going in the direction its citizens want it to, and if it stops going in that direction then people will be voted out.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 21:55:43  
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.

I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 22:07:12  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.

I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
Wait I know this one. Offhand I know it violates unlawful search and seizures. Give me a few minutes for more.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 22:11:33  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Oh and for all these people who are bitching about the patriot act: 1. Its an antiterrorism tool used to intercept information regarding terrorist plots. While it is a government intrusion of privacy it is still subject to the due process of law and oversight by courts. 2. If you were convicted by this means and the agency did not have a warrent or probable cause then the evidence would be inadmissable. In fact, the entire case can be thrown out because without the breaking of the law further evidence against you could not have been uncovered. 3. You should always question the motives of your government. If government authority breaches your rights in a way that is blatently unconsitutional than you should be against it. The patriot act, however, does not show some "grand conspiracy" to spy on citizens. If you're a citizen who isn't a terrorist then I don't think you have anything to fear. 4. Obama's Czar can not legally create any policy. Czars violate the part of the consituation that requires congressional approval of executive positions. I'm sure these guys can suggest policy but they can't implement it themselves. 5. The constitution and its rights are an evolving concept. I think the breadth of the constituional protections are being expanded to this day. Gay marriage, women voting, etc are all expansions. Even if the constiution was to collapse in protection it would be the will of its citizens via elected government. While you may believe that you have no say in government the collective population does.
regardless of what the patriot act is used for it is in direct violation of the constitution and violates protected rights of citizens, so please shut up.
I don't think you could even tell me what part of the constitution it violates or why. I'll be here waiting.
Wait I know this one. Offhand I know it violates unlawful search and seizures. Give me a few minutes for more.

Does it? That's the part of the consitution in question certainly, along with the entire due process statement. However, the consitutionality of searches and seizures are clearly defined by courts in a concept known as "Procedural Law". Procedural Law describes the laws regarding how evidence is admissable, what police officers can and can't do etc. Whether or not the patriot act is violating the constitution actually depends on whether or not it is violating due process. This process is detirmined by an entirely different school of law than substansive law. So the consitution really isn't even in question here.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 22:12:39  
This guy got a lot of it right: How does the Patriot Act Violate the Constitution?
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-05 22:15:09  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
This guy got a lot of it right: How does the Patriot Act Violate the Constitution?

Well, those issues arent even due process issues. The first one is saying that you can't restrict his speech. I'd have to read the case briefing to see exactly how. Anyways, I'm mainly talking about spying and wiretaping which are due process issues.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-10-05 22:17:09  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
This guy got a lot of it right: How does the Patriot Act Violate the Constitution?

Well, those issues arent even due process issues. The first one is saying that you can't restrict his speech. I'd have to read the case briefing to see exactly how. Anyways, I'm mainly talking about spying and wiretaping which are due process issues.
Yeah trying to research this part atm:

Quote:

While a district court subsequently found section 2709 of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act unconstitutional, the Act itself has been affirmed to be constitutional, and has since been reaffirmed by the congress.
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