Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
What I'm hearing from this recent and past discussions is that, outside of dagger, 1h primes are hot garbage in terms of damage compared to Ambuscade weapons and you're better off making a 2h.
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They're not garbage, they're just less ground-breaking than the 2h weapons. If you take skillchains and WS wall entirely out of the picture (which is an extremely questionable decision to make) then yes, the individual WS will not do mind-blowing amounts of damage and in many cases will be beaten pound-for-pound with Naegling.
Keeping that in mind, that kind of vacuum doesn't exist in FFXI and there are plenty of situations where you have a WS wall, where you need a specific SC property (or to avoid a different SC property) or where you're self-skillchaining. All prime WS have fantastic and unique SC properties. Naegling also doesn't have ODT on its auto-attack swings, a PDL aftermath, or the stats (pet level, crit, DT, refresh, STP, TA) that the 1h weapons have.
If you play primarily BST, NIN, BRD, RDM, THF, or DNC, it doesn't matter how good the GKT is, because those jobs can't use a GKT.
If your only goal is to do as much damage as your character can do, no matter what job or what the situation is...you don't play NIN, RDM, or THF in the first place, so it's kind of a moot point to ask whether GKT/GA/GS/Polarm/Scythe are better than Katana/Dagger/Axe/Sword/Club.
Keeping that in mind, that kind of vacuum doesn't exist in FFXI and there are plenty of situations where you have a WS wall, where you need a specific SC property (or to avoid a different SC property) or where you're self-skillchaining. All prime WS have fantastic and unique SC properties. Naegling also doesn't have ODT on its auto-attack swings, a PDL aftermath, or the stats (pet level, crit, DT, refresh, STP, TA) that the 1h weapons have.
If you play primarily BST, NIN, BRD, RDM, THF, or DNC, it doesn't matter how good the GKT is, because those jobs can't use a GKT.
If your only goal is to do as much damage as your character can do, no matter what job or what the situation is...you don't play NIN, RDM, or THF in the first place, so it's kind of a moot point to ask whether GKT/GA/GS/Polarm/Scythe are better than Katana/Dagger/Axe/Sword/Club.
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I know I don't have one but everyone I know who has one enjoys them. Most people understand what they are making and pretty much don't care where they fall on the tier/meta list.
Think only of the 1h katana is "dissappointing" which is largely for the same reason as the others; savage blade still wins in raw dmg.
And h2h from what little ive seen/heard about it
And h2h from what little ive seen/heard about it
Ok. I had no idea one way or the other. Haven't made a prime and don't specifically have any goals to make one, but also haven't decided which one I would if I were to. From what I've read from previous comments (like Proth's description of the katana) was that it was a weaker physical weapon to Naegling and the points would have been better spent on a 2h. The only other 1h prime I see people talk about that they've made or enjoyed is the dagger (I've seen the sword thrown around a bit for niche sets, but it was for BLU which also has Tizona). I play a vast number of jobs, so this information is helpful to me. I'd likely just pick whatever I want anyways, but it's something I was curious about for a while.
Definitely not hot garbage. It's a question of how far down in the queue you're going to make a 1h prime weapon based on the merits of the weapon. If you're not going to use a 2h weapon because you don't play those jobs, then 1h Primes are the way to go. The general sentiment is that you can't go wrong with a 2h so long as you're going to use it.
Story Time
Story Time
Far as ive seen for 1handers:
Good: axe/dagger
Okay: sword/club
Eh: katana
If you make regular use of the sc props theyre pretty solid and axe gives pet lvl+ ontop of blitz being a very respectable ws, but they largely just lack the ftp or wsc to compete with ole faithful, if you rule out SB i think theyre all at or very close to the top dmg ws if you have tp bonus
Good: axe/dagger
Okay: sword/club
Eh: katana
If you make regular use of the sc props theyre pretty solid and axe gives pet lvl+ ontop of blitz being a very respectable ws, but they largely just lack the ftp or wsc to compete with ole faithful, if you rule out SB i think theyre all at or very close to the top dmg ws if you have tp bonus
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The Katana is honestly slept on, since most people dont bother to play ninja. It scales similarly to the dagger and makes light with Savage blade as well. I've seen NIN on exemplar mobs in crawlers nest spit out 80k-damage cap consistently while having samurai levels of TP gain. It's definitely stronger than Heishi outside of hyrbids.
That being said, I dont think its fair to put it below the sword and club whom both dont really fill any role (either). The sword is a cute alternative to knights of the round on aminon I suppose?
I understand that most people simply piggyback on Proths post here, but I'd argue it's worth another look. Without deep diving into the thread to review his posts, it's possible his sets weren't optimal or was in a low buff scenario? Of course, we're still talking about Ninja here
That being said, I dont think its fair to put it below the sword and club whom both dont really fill any role (either). The sword is a cute alternative to knights of the round on aminon I suppose?
I understand that most people simply piggyback on Proths post here, but I'd argue it's worth another look. Without deep diving into the thread to review his posts, it's possible his sets weren't optimal or was in a low buff scenario? Of course, we're still talking about Ninja here
I think it's fair to question what weapons are 'favored' when considering making a Prime weapon. It's a huge investment, and maybe some people are willing to take on a new job if the improvement from current meta weapon and their respective Primes is large enough.
I'd like to get some feedback on the prime dagger and polearm. I've got the points to Stage 3 one of these. Ignore that both jobs can use Naegling / Savage Blade. From the stats alone, the dagger doesn't seem like that much of an improvement over Twashtar. And I get plenty of mileage out of my Vajra even. The polearm seems really appealing because I'm so underwhelmed by the alternative polearms. Even at R15 they're just so...mid. I think Ryu has insane potential, but it is such a princess WS, needing all the buffs / debuffs you can get, which isn't always practical.
Those that have either, how do you feel they compare to the alternatives (again, not including Naegling)? What content / fights do you do with them?
I'd like to get some feedback on the prime dagger and polearm. I've got the points to Stage 3 one of these. Ignore that both jobs can use Naegling / Savage Blade. From the stats alone, the dagger doesn't seem like that much of an improvement over Twashtar. And I get plenty of mileage out of my Vajra even. The polearm seems really appealing because I'm so underwhelmed by the alternative polearms. Even at R15 they're just so...mid. I think Ryu has insane potential, but it is such a princess WS, needing all the buffs / debuffs you can get, which isn't always practical.
Those that have either, how do you feel they compare to the alternatives (again, not including Naegling)? What content / fights do you do with them?
I have St4 dagger, as do 2 other members of my group and one of them has St4 polearm that he's planning to St5.
Dagger is best on DNC, where it will out-do Rudras with Twashtar, and also provides SC options you literally can't get anywhere else. This is relevant for BRD, RDM, and (to a large degree) THF as well. THF technically can make Light, but the WS options on that side are TERRIBLE compared to Ruthless; Exenterator & Shark Bite are extremely awful and Mandalic Stab is meh under the best conditions
Polearm is by far and away the best WSD you will see from a DRG using a polearm. It is widely considered by anyone who's built one to be BiS for a DRG using polearm and it's not even close. We've used it in some battles like Xevioso & (would) for multi-KI Arebati/Ongo and it is absolutely incredible.
If you're not concerned with how much content you'll use the weapon in, these are both fine options that provide excellent versatility and upgrades to existing weapons, IMO.
Dagger is best on DNC, where it will out-do Rudras with Twashtar, and also provides SC options you literally can't get anywhere else. This is relevant for BRD, RDM, and (to a large degree) THF as well. THF technically can make Light, but the WS options on that side are TERRIBLE compared to Ruthless; Exenterator & Shark Bite are extremely awful and Mandalic Stab is meh under the best conditions
Polearm is by far and away the best WSD you will see from a DRG using a polearm. It is widely considered by anyone who's built one to be BiS for a DRG using polearm and it's not even close. We've used it in some battles like Xevioso & (would) for multi-KI Arebati/Ongo and it is absolutely incredible.
If you're not concerned with how much content you'll use the weapon in, these are both fine options that provide excellent versatility and upgrades to existing weapons, IMO.
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Stage 4 dagger and stage 4 polearm owner - I concur with the above and have zero regrets on these two weapons.
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The polearm is raved on by all respectable drgs I know that have it, which is as high endorsement as you can get imo. Pretty sure it out damages anything on drg, including savage.
The dagger is top if you're a dnc, not so much for the other jobs as they lack the buffs to stack with the ws to get good numbers.
The dagger is top if you're a dnc, not so much for the other jobs as they lack the buffs to stack with the ws to get good numbers.
Katana is solid in its own ecosystem... being on Ninja. Ninja has its own flaws but can be fun to play. If you must be on ninja its a great prime imo. It might do slightly less then the dagger but it has better SC options as it SCs with savage. With decked out buffs and insane gear u can spam 80k + zeshos with SV can even do 90ks in a zone like reisenjima it might even do all 9s with the vorseals.
Don’t necessarily disagree with the above but dagger has very good sc properties too/creates fusion off of savage.
Ruthless is absolutely competitive with Savage blade under the right conditions. Without even considering SC damage.
Anyone telling you that prime 1hd WS damage is hot garbage, got a stage 4, went out to adamantoise and used WS with no buffs... it's that level of trolling at this point.
Asura.Dexprozius said: »
The Katana is honestly slept on, since most people dont bother to play ninja. It scales similarly to the dagger and makes light with Savage blade as well. I've seen NIN on exemplar mobs in crawlers nest spit out 80k-damage cap consistently while having samurai levels of TP gain. It's definitely stronger than Heishi outside of hyrbids.
That being said, I dont think its fair to put it below the sword and club whom both dont really fill any role (either). The sword is a cute alternative to knights of the round on aminon I suppose?
I understand that most people simply piggyback on Proths post here, but I'd argue it's worth another look. Without deep diving into the thread to review his posts, it's possible his sets weren't optimal or was in a low buff scenario? Of course, we're still talking about Ninja here
That being said, I dont think its fair to put it below the sword and club whom both dont really fill any role (either). The sword is a cute alternative to knights of the round on aminon I suppose?
I understand that most people simply piggyback on Proths post here, but I'd argue it's worth another look. Without deep diving into the thread to review his posts, it's possible his sets weren't optimal or was in a low buff scenario? Of course, we're still talking about Ninja here
Nah 80k is perfectly possible with high PDL buffs (60%+ total), capped attack, /drg etc. but it's super hard to actually cap attack without Frailty, or stacking many forms of def down. Problem is if Zesho jumps to 80k+, Savage with the same buffs and easier to cap attack has 95k AVERAGES and easily jump to 99k
Nariont said: »
Think only of the 1h katana is "dissappointing" which is largely for the same reason as the others; savage blade still wins in raw dmg.
And h2h from what little ive seen/heard about it
And h2h from what little ive seen/heard about it
H2H is actually very good. Raw dps without skillchains, it only loses to Godhands Tornado during Footwork. During impetus, without TP bonus buffs, using Maru Kala, it's slightly weaker with raw DPS than Veret using Smite, but Varga can also use Vsmite then and be highly competitive to Veret with it. With any TP bonus buffs Varga just smokes Veret and Vsmite.
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Asura.Lunafreya said: »
Don’t necessarily disagree with the above but dagger has very good sc properties too/creates fusion off of savage.
Wut? Nothing can make Fusion off Savage, in either direction.
Maybe you meant the dagger can (in two steps) make Fusion, to allow Savage to Light? That's...very convoluted and requires your Naegling holder to sit there gaining TP while waiting for you to WS twice in a row.
To clarify though: I was saying that Dagger (excluding Prime) has terrible WS and is lacking several key properties. Prime dagger adds some to that equation and is a good WS.
I am at a loss for whatever you were trying to say here.
I just want to point out to anyone using Izanami's simulator, it does not currently have ODD/ODT coded. It might be something that gets added. So any #'s you're seeing from Primes will be higher with this taken into consideration.
Has any additional testing been done regarding ODD/ODT? Last I saw it seems both are about 30% proc rate.
Has any additional testing been done regarding ODD/ODT? Last I saw it seems both are about 30% proc rate.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Asura.Lunafreya said: »
Don’t necessarily disagree with the above but dagger has very good sc properties too/creates fusion off of savage.
Wut? Nothing can make Fusion off Savage, in either direction.
Maybe you meant the dagger can (in two steps) make Fusion, to allow Savage to Light? That's...very convoluted and requires your Naegling holder to sit there gaining TP while waiting for you to WS twice in a row.
To clarify though: I was saying that Dagger (excluding Prime) has terrible WS and is lacking several key properties. Prime dagger adds some to that equation and is a good WS.
I am at a loss for whatever you were trying to say here.
It was an answer to Ahlen not you.
He said katana has better sc properties than dagger because it makes SCs with Savage, but Dagger also do SCs with Savage. Savage > ruthless is light and Ruthless > Savage is Scission and if you continue like that it will do liquefaction and scission "forever"
Veydal1 said: »
I just want to point out to anyone using Izanami's simulator, it does not currently have ODD/ODT coded. It might be something that gets added. So any #'s you're seeing from Primes will be higher with this taken into consideration.
Has any additional testing been done regarding ODD/ODT? Last I saw it seems both are about 30% proc rate.
Has any additional testing been done regarding ODD/ODT? Last I saw it seems both are about 30% proc rate.
I have that in mind, but ODT on primes is coded like on relics, not empy (which doesn't matter for h2h), so it can only proc on first hit of the round, so for jobs like THF, DNC, NIN, RDM etc. it's not really that impactful.
To make a bigger picture here. Prime Great Axe with 100%DA on WAR
will add +30% white damage (30% ODT proc on one hit), while AM3 Ukonvasara will add +100% white damage. Generally it's more attractive on 2handed primes having less multi-attack rate (DRK) and least attractive on dual wielded 1h primes with high multi-attack rate (RDM, MNK, THF, NIN, DNC).
Gun and Bow are exceptions here and works like empys. don't ask me why XD
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SimonSes said: »
Gun and Bow are exceptions here and works like empys. don't ask me why XD
No complaints, we'll manage^^
For my fellow bow enthusiasts, how's the feedback from actually using the thing? It seems like a powerhouse, but I guess I'm more-so asking how people are making RNG work in content. Any creative folks out there using off-meta strats? Asking for tailored buffs? Would be cool to hear how people are making use of the bow.
SimonSes said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Asura.Lunafreya said: »
Don’t necessarily disagree with the above but dagger has very good sc properties too/creates fusion off of savage.
Wut? Nothing can make Fusion off Savage, in either direction.
Maybe you meant the dagger can (in two steps) make Fusion, to allow Savage to Light? That's...very convoluted and requires your Naegling holder to sit there gaining TP while waiting for you to WS twice in a row.
To clarify though: I was saying that Dagger (excluding Prime) has terrible WS and is lacking several key properties. Prime dagger adds some to that equation and is a good WS.
I am at a loss for whatever you were trying to say here.
It was an answer to Ahlen not you.
He said katana has better sc properties than dagger because it makes SCs with Savage, but Dagger also do SCs with Savage. Savage > ruthless is light and Ruthless > Savage is Scission and if you continue like that it will do liquefaction and scission "forever"
Savage => Ruthless is Liquefaction, not light.
Liquefaction, i stand corrected. Not fusion.
And yes I was responding to whoever said dagger doesn't have good SC properties/doesnt play well with Savage.
And yes I was responding to whoever said dagger doesn't have good SC properties/doesnt play well with Savage.
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Does anyone have any information on if Opashoro would be better than bunzi rod for v25 ongo and bumba for SCH?
I think generally with AM3 Opashoro does more damage than club/shield. However, for bumba specifically, dealing more damage during skillchain portion can be problematic for dealing max damage for Kaustras, so maybe not.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
They're not garbage, they're just less ground-breaking than the 2h weapons. If you take skillchains and WS wall entirely out of the picture (which is an extremely questionable decision to make) then yes, the individual WS will not do mind-blowing amounts of damage and in many cases will be beaten pound-for-pound with Naegling.
Keeping that in mind, that kind of vacuum doesn't exist in FFXI and there are plenty of situations where you have a WS wall, where you need a specific SC property (or to avoid a different SC property) or where you're self-skillchaining. All prime WS have fantastic and unique SC properties. Naegling also doesn't have ODT on its auto-attack swings, a PDL aftermath, or the stats (pet level, crit, DT, refresh, STP, TA) that the 1h weapons have.
If you play primarily BST, NIN, BRD, RDM, THF, or DNC, it doesn't matter how good the GKT is, because those jobs can't use a GKT.
If your only goal is to do as much damage as your character can do, no matter what job or what the situation is...you don't play NIN, RDM, or THF in the first place, so it's kind of a moot point to ask whether GKT/GA/GS/Polarm/Scythe are better than Katana/Dagger/Axe/Sword/Club.
Keeping that in mind, that kind of vacuum doesn't exist in FFXI and there are plenty of situations where you have a WS wall, where you need a specific SC property (or to avoid a different SC property) or where you're self-skillchaining. All prime WS have fantastic and unique SC properties. Naegling also doesn't have ODT on its auto-attack swings, a PDL aftermath, or the stats (pet level, crit, DT, refresh, STP, TA) that the 1h weapons have.
If you play primarily BST, NIN, BRD, RDM, THF, or DNC, it doesn't matter how good the GKT is, because those jobs can't use a GKT.
If your only goal is to do as much damage as your character can do, no matter what job or what the situation is...you don't play NIN, RDM, or THF in the first place, so it's kind of a moot point to ask whether GKT/GA/GS/Polarm/Scythe are better than Katana/Dagger/Axe/Sword/Club.
Just got prime gun stage 4. Bayeux bullet on all melee, WS and JA related -50 enmity is going to be clutch. Can't wait to try it in SB spam boss fights.
Was testing on lvl 1 rabbits. Anyone got a good way to better test last stand since it's a 2 hit?
Edit: Tested on fortification in Crawlers Nest [S].
With fomalhaut r15:
3ktp laststand 4733
1382tp laststand 3937
With stage 4 prime:
1264tp terminus 3774
1351tp last stand 3168
3ktp terminus 6535
3ktp laststand 4679
Was testing on lvl 1 rabbits. Anyone got a good way to better test last stand since it's a 2 hit?
Edit: Tested on fortification in Crawlers Nest [S].
With fomalhaut r15:
3ktp laststand 4733
1382tp laststand 3937
With stage 4 prime:
1264tp terminus 3774
1351tp last stand 3168
3ktp terminus 6535
3ktp laststand 4679
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