Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

We're running Velner's setup. BRD and COR, no GEO. RDM does Dia 3 + Light Shot and then the WAR does Armor Break. Think we are doing HM/Blade/Minuetx2/Aria for basement bosses (though our first run we messed them up a bit). The goal is to have SV up for F, G and H, but it won't be up for E. It was more of a theoretical statement since only the COR and BRD will be doing Savage on E. My thought process is that, in general, you are going to do about 10k-20k less or so on the basement bosses due to higher stats, so if you can push 110k-120k or so on the top floor version, you could theoretically hit 99k on basement. That's a bit of a stretch though, more PDL gear, even if I was over the atk cap to reach it, would probably only get me another 10k, meaning even if I could do Savage on E, it would probably be around 80k-90k.


Have you guys not written him off as a troll and/or somebody who just isn't worth trying to teach anything? He's dropping plenty of hints. He already admitted he's too lazy to use JA and whines about it slowing his casting, so even if you showed him undeniable math and video evidence, he would still deny it. Either out of sheer refusal to admit otherwise, or because he's an actual troll. Best to just ignore him, imo. Maybe one person point out he's wrong so people don't listen to him and then continue the thread ignoring him.

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As far as Sortie and weapon testing goes, still haven't decided if we are going back to mage setup or doing another melee run, but I think we are just changing up the order and will try again, so hopefully I will get some good Origin numbers on C/G. I'd love to bring a GEO in to guarantee the floor for max PDL gear, but I don't think we can afford to give up the RDM for F, and losing Haste II would also require some things to be reworked.

Please. Just stop. Take this elsewhere, like the DRK sticky.

Please stop derailing the thread with DRK discussions...

Go to this link to continue the conversation:

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57339/drksam-is-trash-a-safe-place-for-unpopular-opinion#3668362

This is true I should've known it was a troll I think its why i had him blocked before makes sense now.

I appreciate your garbage advice, maybe learn how to play the job?

Also edit no this isn't some personal attack on you just drks in general

Glad I struck a nerve maybe its you don't understand drk because as you said your lua plays the job for you. Enjoy life and back to the blocklist you go.

My luas do play themselves... all coded by me from scratch.

Proud of it!

- Check thread to see if there is any new info to get excited about.

- Reads nice info on Aria and savage blade, get more excited about great sword.

- Read several pages of crap from people who either know sweet f all about game mechanics or are trolling, and curse them for derailing this thread so I have to sieve through it to find useful info.

- Plan to check back tomorrow and continue to appreciate the folks who are actually sharing solid, on topic information.

Looking at my Halloween Pumpkin from last year and it's so hard to choose Dagger over Scythe XD Nostalgia is strong in FFXI player base XD

follow yer heart!

nostalgia aside.. I got 2 runs until dagger, after which I'd be more than happy to burn a ruspix with you if you want to get some concrete numbers to math out before making a decision.

Awesome!

Unwanted.. Hah. Play what you want and make what weapon you want to make.

If it wasn't posted already there's katana info in Japanese here:
https://twitter.com/okina78taketori/status/1670442750800695299

I can't read Japanese but I think it says:


Someone who can read Japanese could confirm though.

Im RDM most of the time now in Sortie, so to use scythe I would need to swap with our DRK, which means less time spend with the weapon for another ~3months. Also DPS job and DPS situation is very vague statement in this phase of the game. In Sortie on my RDM Im doing 65-75k Black Halo with huge WS frequency (3%QA, 39%Tiple Attack, 5%DA, 91storeTP from just gear and TemperII). Even assuming DRK is doing 20% more damage overall, my damage is still very significant. If we get Aria this Halos will probably start breaking 80k (inb4 Why not Savage Blade? Savage Blade is about the same, but with better attack bonus, but it would be WS walled badly, when COR and BRD are using it too).

Also DNC is probably one of the better DD jobs for Sortie. You have Climactic ready for every boss. Grand Pas for H and F. You help everyone to reach new caps with PDL by applying -23%def with Box Step. You can give everyone Jig (24% movement speed), to move around at short distance when you don't want to be bothered with bolter's roll. The only thing DNC really miss is good Fragmentation (and non Distortion) WS. If Prime WS is good, then DNC has everything.

I definitely doing dagger if the WS is decent.

Kinda looks like no fTP transfer.
He wrote 16534 at 2000TP
In video he did 2048TP 18206 damage and he got Double Attack proc on that. Base is 5hits while dual Wielding. With fTP transfer that 2048 with DA should do more like slightly above 20k.

Dagger video kinda suggested the same (guy did higher damage with 3hit, than with 8hit at almost the same TP), but it wasnt so conclusive, because Dagger was used at such low cratio, that it was still possible to get super low 8hit damage and higher 3hit damage even with fTP transfer.

If multihit prime WSs are like Upheaval (or Savage, tho its only 2hits), where only fTP of the fist hit matters, then you should gear WSD for it instead of multihit, which would be AWESOME, because Nyame (survivability/skillchain bonus) and then also poor base stats of TP bonus offhand wont be an issue.

Now we can see he used 32%WSD for the trusts buffs test, but I wonder what set he used for that buffed 49k.

Just don't understand how he got DA proc, when I can't see any DA in his gear :/ But he had 160TP return on all other WSs, but on 2047 one he had 172TP return. Maybe he used DA food?

Also it's so *** easy to test if that's fTP transfer or fTP on main hit, just need to use 3000TP on 2%HP mob and you will either do 5k meaning its transfer or 19k, meaning its's not (numbers for Katana with trusts buffs). None checking that is really frustrating >.>

I think he is just subbing warrior maybe.

Thank You!

I would comment that in my language as "Najciemniej pod latarnią" XD

He IS subbing warrior, you can see it in beginning where he is showcasing his gear. it also tells his job/subjob

Also he's got Hattori Zukin on, so if Innin is up, there is Double attack. though I don't think he using it....I cannot tell by the icons.

Primes are physical WS dmg. They aren't beating existing elemental or hybrid WS options with proper buffs.

The question becomes how relevant is needing the increased physical dmg to your job and whatever content you play if you have a magical option already?

Most end game content completely shuts down hybrids.
Unusable on all A3-4 Odyssey gaol.
Good for AE in Sorties.
Only NIN has good hybrids for BF and SAM for CG. DH has changing resists, so you can only use some hybrids temporarily.

I'm in the camp hoping that mericless strike DOES have replicating fTP across all hits. If fTP does not replicate then you are correct that we would want to just gear for WSD because only the first hit really matters, and the trailing 3 hits would be pretty meaningless. But we already have a dagger weaponskill that does that. It's called rudra's storm... and it's really powerful. If fTP does not transfer on merciless strike then it's literally just Rudra's storm 2.0, which is not only boring and a complete waste of potential, but it would also require merciless strike to have some ridiculous tp scaling to make it stronger than rudra's. Do you really expect mericless strike's tp scaling to outmatch Rudra's storm? That's asking a lot, because rudra's scaling is extreme.

If however fTP DOES transfer across all hits then you have the potential for something new and exciting in the dagger classes. Say for a theoretical example the ftp was 1.25, 2.5, and 4.5, and the stat mods amounted to your proposed 120% split between 40% dex/agi/cha evenly. That would make merciless strike model raging fist or tornado kick, where you get really powerful returns by weaponskilling around 2500 because you're getting 5 hits minimum (offhand gets a swing). Instead of gearing nyame you'd probably gear 4/5 empyrean with gleti's legs for the triple attack boost. Multi hits would have a huge impact, and striking flourish with empyrean body would be very impactful at 2k+ tp. To me that is far more interesting than cloning the same weaponskill we've been spamming for the past decade now.

It would be really easy to see too. If fTP does NOT transfer to the additional hits and you weaponskill at 3000 tp wearing full Nyame once, and a second time wearing the aforementioned 4/5 empyrean with gleti's legs and a 10% DA cape then the nyame build should produce significantly higher numbers. But if tp does transfer the latter set should be equal to or even stronger than the full nyame. I'm looking forward to knowing this information. It's literally the selling point of the weaponskill for me.

@Melliny I disagree (off just my opinion). You look from THF perspective only. DNC already has ftp transfer WS, which in theory is the highest DPS potential on DNC, but the problem is to boost ftp transfer WS you want to gear for PDL. Problem is we have way too much PDL. DNC bis set for ftp transferring Merciless strike with Aria and aftermath will have like 80%+PDL. Good luck reaching pdif cap without all the debuffs and buffs available, especially when Aria takes away one minuet too.
Multihit proc is also NOT "that" impactful on 5hit WS. Its impactful on 2hits WS like Howling Fist, when TA proc doubles your damage. On 5hits TA is only +40%. Another problem is also you would want to use TP bonus offhand, because this WS scale way too good and using anything else will just be highly inferior. Problem is that with fTP transfer loosing skill and base damage on offhand hit hurst a lot. Still not enough to drop TP bonus though, so you end up with it anyway, but much weaker.
Now if that WS have at least 50% attack bonus to help utilize massive amount of PDL then sure, but at this point I doubt it has any attack boost. Also rdm and BRD has very limited PDL option and they would lack attack to use them properly anyway. Not to mention those WSs main thing is 3 step light/darkness and you would like skillchain bonus for that, which again is on Nyame. I don't care Rudra is one hit too. Its build around darkness skillchain, while Merciless is build around Light, so you would have reason to use both.

Tldr Gearing for multihit ftp transferring WS is terrible. I don't want another Pyrrhic Kleos, which is god tier only in sheet, but in reality you need all the buffs/debuffs in the world to make it happen.

Edit: Also checking if WS in 5 hit transfer or main hit fTP is super easy like I mentioned and doesn't require any gearing for WSD and PDL and checking it like that. All you need to do is do 3000TP WS on target with like 1000HP, so you force only first hit connect and kills it. If that one hit is 20% damage of 5hit WS then it's fTP transfer. If it's like 80% of whole WS, then it's main hit fTP

You shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions about me. I was making that post from a dancer's perspective, not thief's. It's true that I used to post mainly on the thief forms and played mainly thief, but that was 5 years ago and before oddy came out. I've diversified my jobs since, and now I have about 10 I play. I play dancer a lot more than I do thief nowadays. So the mindset you assume I have from back then is not the same as I have now.

Now, staying on topic to address the points you've made, I'm aware that pyrrhic kleos has fTP transfer. But there's something else it has that's a common trait to every dagger weaponskill that transfers FTP, and that's fixed fTP values that don't scale. It doesn't matter if you use pyrrhic kleos at 1000 tp or at 3000 tp. You're always getting that 1.75 fTP on every hit, which is why fotia is good in pyrrhic. But merciless strike DOES have scaling fTP, and if you considered the theoretical numbers I posted above you'd see what I'm hoping for from meriless strike. I've had plenty of experience playing monk as well, so I'm familiar with how H2H works. There is a big difference between an fTP transfer weaponskill that never goes beyond 1.75 fTP at its baseline, versus one that can scale towards the 4.5 or 5.0 range. That larger scaling makes all the difference.


I'm perfectly content to use gleti's knife offhand. I think it's your inherent obsession with centovente that's driving your opinion somewhat, and I'm not knocking cento here. Cento is a very strong offhand and I use it plenty myself, but there's nothing wrong with gleti's knife either and if the weaponskill ended up being fTP transfer with good scaling I'd happily offhand gleti's to compliment MPU mainhand.

Now that is simply wrong. With your proposed scaling of 1.25, 2.5, 4.5 TP bonus offhand would mean +90% WS damage. Even if you consider everything that Gletis offers tp bonus would still be like +50% DPS. So when you say you are just content with not doing 50% more DPS than it's hard to take you serious. You are arguing scaling with TP is main advantage and what makes it superior to Pyrrhic, then you want to ignore that scaling and use offhand like for a fixed fTP Pyrrhic. Gleti's is way closer with Twashtar on THF, because Twashtar has massive white damage on THF and Rudra isn't relatively that high damage at 2250. Prime dagger doesn't have triple damage on melee and WS at 2250 will hopefully do 60k at least, so total damage will be way more skewed towards WS damage and doing 30k instead of 60k wouldn't make any sense.

Just for fun I changed Pyrrhic in DNC sheet to numbers you suggested for Merciless Strike

This is with Gleti's


This is with Centovente


Edit: ofc I understand your dislike in using non Ilvl weapon at this stage of the game, but you simply can't deny it's effectiveness for WSs with scaling fTP and how far ahead it is over any alternative. So if you gear for DPS you can't really avoid using it. If you gear for fun then sure, don't use it, but then any discussion about Prime WS power and efficiency is pointless.