Asura.Lunafreya said: »
Sterk make it happen with ninja and really upset the balance, please.
You can make it happen with your new shiny. NIN/DRK just like we used to do, but with a twist xD
Sortie Release - Info
Sortie Release - Info
You can make it happen with your new shiny. NIN/DRK just like we used to do, but with a twist xD
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@sirtaint
Gauntlet has been thrown. We gotta make it happen.
Gauntlet has been thrown. We gotta make it happen.
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Dunno how I didn't notice till now but Chakra got rid of E boss taint
Hey all, I wanted to share some of my findings regarding the Basement Aurum Coffer and believe I've potentially pinned down the correct conditions to spawn it.
First off, I want to thank Virlym (and others during the time he was posting) for his findings/testing earlier in this thread as it helped give me a foundation to work off of.
My typical route consists of clearing the first rooms of E > F > H > G, then looping back to F at the end to do F Naakuals and the Veela room. I have done this exact route for around ~100 runs now and have consistently been able to spawn the Basement Aurum Chest every single run. While one would think that the chest would spawn after clearing G (the last sector of first room mobs), the truth is it has never spawned for me at that point.
Instead, the Aurum chest always spawns for me upon killing the first Veela in the Veela room in F at the end of my run.
Since I was following BG wiki starting out, I was a bit confused when it never spawned after clearing G starting out, but after trying to incoporate the Veela room at the end with my extra time, I noticed it was spawning off the first Veela killed. For about 30~ runs after, until finalizing my route, I tried killing different mobs instead of the Veela at the end.
For example, after clearing EFHG, I proceeded to kill a single Haughty fomor in H. This spawned the Aurum chest. I then tried killing a single Dullahan, and then a single Elemental. All of these kills resulted in the Aurum chest spawning, provided I cleared out all 4 rooms in EFGH prior.
I wasn't able to test out killing a single E mob since I full clear E sector as part of my route.
Taking all that into account, I am inclined to believe that the true conditions for completing the Basement Aurum objective are as stated on BG Wiki:
Vanquish all of the following:
3 each of Esurient Slime, Slug, and Flan;
2 each of Fetid Baelfyr, Gefyrst, Ungeweder, Byrgen, and Veela;
3 each of Gyvewrapped Hound, Dullahan, and Vampyr;
8 Haughty foes of different jobs.
But with an additional condition:
After clearing all of the above, defeat any mob that is the same as the mobs that appear in the first rooms of each basement sector.
Since the mobs in the first rooms cover every mob in every sector, I think it can be simplified to "Clear the first 4 rooms of every basement sector, then defeat any single mob in any basement sector."
Although I don't know if there is anyone else who consistently includes this objective as part of their route, I'd be happy to compare findings if someone does have experience with it.
Have a nice day~
First off, I want to thank Virlym (and others during the time he was posting) for his findings/testing earlier in this thread as it helped give me a foundation to work off of.
My typical route consists of clearing the first rooms of E > F > H > G, then looping back to F at the end to do F Naakuals and the Veela room. I have done this exact route for around ~100 runs now and have consistently been able to spawn the Basement Aurum Chest every single run. While one would think that the chest would spawn after clearing G (the last sector of first room mobs), the truth is it has never spawned for me at that point.
Instead, the Aurum chest always spawns for me upon killing the first Veela in the Veela room in F at the end of my run.
Since I was following BG wiki starting out, I was a bit confused when it never spawned after clearing G starting out, but after trying to incoporate the Veela room at the end with my extra time, I noticed it was spawning off the first Veela killed. For about 30~ runs after, until finalizing my route, I tried killing different mobs instead of the Veela at the end.
For example, after clearing EFHG, I proceeded to kill a single Haughty fomor in H. This spawned the Aurum chest. I then tried killing a single Dullahan, and then a single Elemental. All of these kills resulted in the Aurum chest spawning, provided I cleared out all 4 rooms in EFGH prior.
I wasn't able to test out killing a single E mob since I full clear E sector as part of my route.
Taking all that into account, I am inclined to believe that the true conditions for completing the Basement Aurum objective are as stated on BG Wiki:
Vanquish all of the following:
3 each of Esurient Slime, Slug, and Flan;
2 each of Fetid Baelfyr, Gefyrst, Ungeweder, Byrgen, and Veela;
3 each of Gyvewrapped Hound, Dullahan, and Vampyr;
8 Haughty foes of different jobs.
But with an additional condition:
After clearing all of the above, defeat any mob that is the same as the mobs that appear in the first rooms of each basement sector.
Since the mobs in the first rooms cover every mob in every sector, I think it can be simplified to "Clear the first 4 rooms of every basement sector, then defeat any single mob in any basement sector."
Although I don't know if there is anyone else who consistently includes this objective as part of their route, I'd be happy to compare findings if someone does have experience with it.
Have a nice day~
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I love that people doing Content with their favorite jobs, Keep the amazing work! @Sterk
We completed a 9/9 MNK run. (got Aurum as well) 3rd attempt, 1 mule. It was an organized cluster f but we won.
We didn't realize jobs were jacked up until we entered, so we had to improvise on the fly.
MNK/DRG, DNC/DRK, RDM/DRK, BRD/DRK, COR/DRK, GEO/DRK (mule)
DNC ended up being our main healer since our RDM wasn't /WHM.
We did a kite strat on F that worked brilliantly. Stymie Grav pull. Maru > Maru > Rudra > Rudra (Double darkness) Took him below 70%, we did one more round of WSs then MNK Super Jumped and the DNC kited. GEO did indi fury, GEO grav.
For Aminon we buffed MNK with Chaos/SAMs. Had the GEO pull so only he lost buffs. Once positioned the COR branched off with the DNC for Tact so he would have TP for heals.
Glad we got it done, MNK method leaves a ton of room for error and was a nice change of pace.
We didn't realize jobs were jacked up until we entered, so we had to improvise on the fly.
MNK/DRG, DNC/DRK, RDM/DRK, BRD/DRK, COR/DRK, GEO/DRK (mule)
DNC ended up being our main healer since our RDM wasn't /WHM.
We did a kite strat on F that worked brilliantly. Stymie Grav pull. Maru > Maru > Rudra > Rudra (Double darkness) Took him below 70%, we did one more round of WSs then MNK Super Jumped and the DNC kited. GEO did indi fury, GEO grav.
For Aminon we buffed MNK with Chaos/SAMs. Had the GEO pull so only he lost buffs. Once positioned the COR branched off with the DNC for Tact so he would have TP for heals.
Glad we got it done, MNK method leaves a ton of room for error and was a nice change of pace.
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Taint said: »
For Aminon we buffed MNK with Chaos/SAMs. Had the GEO pull so only he lost buffs. Once positioned the COR branched off with the DNC for Tact so he would have TP for heals.
I forgot that DNC is already a curaga machine—that also does 99k on command.
Can we take a moment to appreciate how the Sortie situation has evolved? I brought MNK as a joke to Aminon one time back when melee+TP denial was the new hotness. Obviously, Boost with Ask Sash couldn't compete with DNC and others. Subtle Blow and Penance felt right, but I think people are generally queasy about full-time engaged melee and they have been since 2003. Of course, once someone posts a video it's very obvious in retrospect that the Subtle Blow system works and always has.
I'm seeing a pattern where we converge on "subtle blow, bro" after years of resistance. Why isn't the knowledge transferable? Why will we always start from the stone age on every new piece of content, go through a zillion revisions and end up using MNK, NIN or full SB sets on other jobs?
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
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alamihgo said: »
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
Because for the other billion dds that aren't Nin or mnk, capping subtle blow is pretty difficult. Capping subtle blow in WS set *and* not dropping dmg a lot even more so.
There are a good number of more modern gear with sb on them, unm accessories especially. Even with those it's still hard to cap subtle blow on most jobs.
Also people are lazy and also love their epeens too much to drop dmg for subtle blow.
alamihgo said: »
I'm seeing a pattern where we converge on "subtle blow, bro" after years of resistance. Why isn't the knowledge transferable? Why will we always start from the stone age on every new piece of content, go through a zillion revisions and end up using MNK, NIN or full SB sets on other jobs?
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
Asking a hell of a lot to joe DD to lower their DPS/TP speed for subtle blow, and having to possibly pace themselves(do this already but that's group suffering), and be a bit more dynamic doing so since its not just a single WS that could tip the mob over but rounds that come in much faster and automatically.
Nariont said: »
alamihgo said: »
I'm seeing a pattern where we converge on "subtle blow, bro" after years of resistance. Why isn't the knowledge transferable? Why will we always start from the stone age on every new piece of content, go through a zillion revisions and end up using MNK, NIN or full SB sets on other jobs?
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
Asking a hell of a lot to joe DD to lower their DPS/TP speed for subtle blow, and having to possibly pace themselves(do this already but that's group suffering), and be a bit more dynamic doing so since its not just a single WS that could tip the mob over but rounds that come in much faster and automatically.
Because your average DD has more balls than brains. Every new NM has to destroyed as quickly as possible for the dopamine hit? The party has to be sweaty by the end of the fight and the WHM has to hate themselves or we're doing that new NM properly. (/s).
(I totally agree with the idea. We should be starting with MNK/subtleblow first in most cases. There are some cases in Sortie specifically where a 3-minute time limit might make that difficult without some power creep. I can see that too).
alamihgo said: »
Taint said: »
For Aminon we buffed MNK with Chaos/SAMs. Had the GEO pull so only he lost buffs. Once positioned the COR branched off with the DNC for Tact so he would have TP for heals.
I forgot that DNC is already a curaga machine—that also does 99k on command.
Can we take a moment to appreciate how the Sortie situation has evolved? I brought MNK as a joke to Aminon one time back when melee+TP denial was the new hotness. Obviously, Boost with Ask Sash couldn't compete with DNC and others. Subtle Blow and Penance felt right, but I think people are generally queasy about full-time engaged melee and they have been since 2003. Of course, once someone posts a video it's very obvious in retrospect that the Subtle Blow system works and always has.
I'm seeing a pattern where we converge on "subtle blow, bro" after years of resistance. Why isn't the knowledge transferable? Why will we always start from the stone age on every new piece of content, go through a zillion revisions and end up using MNK, NIN or full SB sets on other jobs?
If we determine TP denial works early, why isn't Subtle Blow the first approach?
DNC heals worked really well, tbh. I had tact going and kind of laid off for the first 50-70% and just let Taint do his thing. Because we were low on time (due to this being new for us), I decided to go nuts around 30% with Grand Pas Trance combo and then another climactic/reverse/icarus wing combo. All in all I threw out a quick 800k dmg to help finish it off in time. All the while having TP on hand to deliver a few divine waltzes.
We (and when I say we, I mean I) are looking to see how we can factor NIN into the equation...most likely taking the DNC spot. Our RDM will be /WHM when we do this method so the DNC heals were mostly just a fallback, but it did work. TP was riding kind of high so I don't think we'll be able to have both MNK and NIN engaged but we'll be experimenting.
Truth be told it's gonna be hard to justify NIN over DNC just because of everything DNC brings to the table. But if we can get it to work, there's a "fun" factor to be considered on content that is now a few years old and is quite frankly a snoozefest with the meta setup.
I do enjoy Subtle Blow. When I go SAM to our runs I WS in this on Aminon while MS/Yaeg is up and full-time on Aita and don't really feel bad about it. I actually still do 99ks on Aminon with this since Yaegasumi is OP and I'm willing to take a small hit to DPS on Aita in order to have a fetterless fight.
ItemSet 402573
Our RDM has enough ML to Auspice with /WHM so that gets me to 50 SB1 for a total of 55 SB in WS.
ItemSet 402573
Our RDM has enough ML to Auspice with /WHM so that gets me to 50 SB1 for a total of 55 SB in WS.
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Felgarr said: »
Because your average DD has more balls than brains. Every new NM has to destroyed as quickly as possible for the dopamine hit? The party has to be sweaty by the end of the fight and the WHM has to hate themselves or we're doing that new NM properly. (/s).
Old Omen experience in a nutshell, could go 3~ mins slower with mnkx2 or mnk+nin or just mnk and dd geared for sb and have basically full control of the fight flow... or you just bang 2 hravy DDs on it and hopefully heal through all the dmg/debuffs that come with it and if you wipe? Healers fault
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Hoxne obviously changed the game for MNK, without it id still be doing DNC strat
I can't even convince people to not melee the damn Pld Ark Angel in Escha so he would stop stunning me every 2sec like a little *** and you want to try to convince an entire group they need to wear max subtle blow in all their sets?
Sometimes I think we're talking about different games entirely.
Sometimes I think we're talking about different games entirely.
We saw significant improvement once we slapped on proper SB sets with MNK setup. It helps with kill speed, especially on F/H due to less debuffs being tossed out (Stuns, Slow, Paralyze, etc.).
Was consistently short of doing 9 boss in a group that had been running together for years. Stage 5 primes, etc. But we would always fall short 2-3 minutes from being able to squeeze in that final boss. That was with one of the members ALWAYS being behind and adding 30+ sec per boss from just waiting for them to enter boss area. Them lagging behind was the difference maker between doing 9 boss or not. Not the fact that they brought 0 damage to the table as COR. Even if the COR was pulling their weight damage-wise, it wouldn't add the time needed to squeeze in that extra boss.
I like the MNK setup because, especially with Hoxne MNK, you can bring essentially any 2nd DD. NIN? np. WAR, great. SAM, awesome. Practically anything fits because you don't even need a second DD at all to 9 boss if you're efficient enough in moving around and getting objectives done (and your COR + BRD aren't dead weight damage-wise).
I can't stress enough how 15-20 extra seconds here and there add up over the course of a run. It's why ja0, anchor, superwarp, etc. are all such huge benefits. They're not needed by any stretch of the imagination, but it's important to keep in mind some groups are using them and skewing perception of what's 'easy' to accomplish.
Was consistently short of doing 9 boss in a group that had been running together for years. Stage 5 primes, etc. But we would always fall short 2-3 minutes from being able to squeeze in that final boss. That was with one of the members ALWAYS being behind and adding 30+ sec per boss from just waiting for them to enter boss area. Them lagging behind was the difference maker between doing 9 boss or not. Not the fact that they brought 0 damage to the table as COR. Even if the COR was pulling their weight damage-wise, it wouldn't add the time needed to squeeze in that extra boss.
I like the MNK setup because, especially with Hoxne MNK, you can bring essentially any 2nd DD. NIN? np. WAR, great. SAM, awesome. Practically anything fits because you don't even need a second DD at all to 9 boss if you're efficient enough in moving around and getting objectives done (and your COR + BRD aren't dead weight damage-wise).
I can't stress enough how 15-20 extra seconds here and there add up over the course of a run. It's why ja0, anchor, superwarp, etc. are all such huge benefits. They're not needed by any stretch of the imagination, but it's important to keep in mind some groups are using them and skewing perception of what's 'easy' to accomplish.
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Dodik said: »
I can't even convince people to not melee the damn Pld Ark Angel in Escha so he would stop stunning me every 2sec like a little *** and you want to try to convince an entire group they need to wear max subtle blow in all their sets?
Sometimes I think we're talking about different games entirely.
Sometimes I think we're talking about different games entirely.
My question is, why do we keep rediscovering the same knowledge after trying everything else first?
Skillchains are the same way. It's free damage that also capitalizes on the generous fTP scaling for people not in the chain. In fact, the fate of skillchains in Sortie makes even *less* sense to me because we were using them extensively through the SC/MB era—and not always for the burst window. Did we forget RNG closing 99k light or COR closing 99k darkness?
I can understand the stubbornness of the "Joe DDs" out there, but aren't you the slightest bit curious about why we keep repeating history? Yes, you! The person reading this right now!
These are zerg fights that are ending in 30-45 seconds when everyone is pulling their weight. For groups that don't have conventional support players (COR, BRD, RDM, GEO) that can contribute respectable damage, SCing works WONDERS. When it happens by chance, it's a pleasant reminder of how strong they are. But the state of the game is at a point where everyone is able to generate TP fast enough that holding TP to SC isn't a net-gain (again, assuming the support players are capable).
SCing only seems worthwhile if your support players aren't geared / capable of WSing frequently enough. At this point though, there's no excuse for anyone half-serious doing Sortie to be able to put together proper TP and WS sets. Even R15 Nyame is enough to get the job done.
SCing only seems worthwhile if your support players aren't geared / capable of WSing frequently enough. At this point though, there's no excuse for anyone half-serious doing Sortie to be able to put together proper TP and WS sets. Even R15 Nyame is enough to get the job done.
alamihgo said: »
My question is, why do we keep rediscovering the same knowledge after trying everything else first?
Imo people view sb as this awkward invetween of sc+mb mage strats and full on melee. Mage gives super small amounts of tp(depending on sc openers) but is often the slowest, full on melee burn is usually the fastest but has a much higher risk of failure, pets/ranged are in there too but more on the mage side, the tp burn is there but risk is largely mitigated to the tank target depending. If we do sb why not just full melee or full mage/ranged/pet
That and as stated at least in the past sb gear was a bit more rare and its not as if theres some kind of roll that can near cap sb(losing chaos probably though if 1 cor)
Veydal1 said: »
But the state of the game is at a point where everyone is able to generate TP fast enough that holding TP to SC isn't a net-gain (again, assuming the support players are capable).
How is everyone able to generate TP fast enough that holding TP to SC isn't a net gain, while also only having two DDs both with max subtle blow on a boss to make the fight smoother both true.
If having more people means more TP feed means more TP moves means more debuffs, would it not also be the case that not meleeing so hard, having let's say 2 dds + cor on it with an SC arranged also be as viable as the subtle blow setup?
It seems a little weird we're saying the full melee zerg is actually really fast and viable but also at the same time we want only two dd with max subtle blow on it to reduce TP feed and make fights smoother.
I thought it was smooth already with everyone zerging it in 30sec. What's up with that.
The real answer is the zerg method isn't fool proof and requires big healing balls unless you kite. Which takes TP feed out of the equation but also requires co-ordination, a thing full zerg groups can't/won't do.
The subtle blow method otoh leaves a lot of wiggle room and can be done with full boxed support, which seems to be the main benefit here - not casting shade.
If you're boxing support and have one dd solo melee SC is very viable, with or without subtle blow. Lots of jobs can do that. It won't give you 9 boss but it can do 5.
Dodik said: »
Veydal1 said: »
But the state of the game is at a point where everyone is able to generate TP fast enough that holding TP to SC isn't a net-gain (again, assuming the support players are capable).
How is everyone able to generate TP fast enough that holding TP to SC isn't a net gain, while also only having two DDs both with max subtle blow on a boss to make the fight smoother both true.
If having more people means more TP feed means more TP moves means more debuffs, would it not also be the case that not meleeing so hard, having let's say 2 dds + cor on it with an SC arranged also be as viable as the subtle blow setup?
It seems a little weird we're saying the full melee zerg is actually really fast and viable but also at the same time we want only two dd with max subtle blow on it to reduce TP feed and make fights smoother.
I thought it was smooth already with everyone zerging it in 30sec. What's up with that.
The real answer is the zerg method isn't fool proof and requires big healing balls unless you kite. Which takes TP feed out of the equation but also requires co-ordination, a thing full zerg groups can't/won't do.
The subtle blow method otoh leaves a lot of wiggle room and can be done with full boxed support, which seems to be the main benefit here - not casting shade.
If you're boxing support and have one dd solo melee SC is very viable, with or without subtle blow. Lots of jobs can do that. It won't give you 9 boss but it can do 5.
There are groups that are going to struggle zerging with everyone on it because, as an example, their BRD is feeding TP while contributing minimal / irrelevant damage. As I said, SCing with fewer people meleeing or using full SB, could help these groups. Then there are groups that just faceroll everything because everyone is overperforming, regardless of SB or SCing. Both can be true.
Obvious question is why is a brd that can't dps effectively trying to dps a Sortie basement boss.
Doesn't seem to be a setup problem.
Doesn't seem to be a setup problem.
The real reason is everyone still thinks Monk is the "weak" DD and it can't compete with other comps. The reality is Monk has, is, and always will be the absolute safest TP denial method for every piece of content. It's been that way for years. Literally nothing has changed (go look at Sealed Fate strats and early omen lowman comps, everything was Monk sole DD). There's nothing to rediscover. We bring this up in Monk threads every other year and there's still people with the "Nuh uhhh Monk is weak and slow". It's so exhausting, not even worth debating anymore. They'll figure it out six months after everyone is sick and tired of whatever meta is current, and they'll pretend it's a newly discovered strat that is the new hotness. I even mentioned a while back after Papesse mentioned summoner in Sortie that I felt Monk was the perfect job to pair with it. It was ignored. This was way before Monk current setup. Nobody cares to try anything innovative anymore until they see a video, then it's "why weren't we doing it this way all along?" Okay...
You can argue it's boring to do things the "Monk way", but it's proven to always be the safest and most efficient way. Nothing new under the sun.
You can argue it's boring to do things the "Monk way", but it's proven to always be the safest and most efficient way. Nothing new under the sun.
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Looking for anecdotes on NIN hybrid dmg in sortie. I’ve never had the opportunity to bring NIN in there with proper brd/cor/geo buffs but, I imagine Chi does quite well on AE. Has anyone tried ambu GKT Kagero on CG?
No actual anecdote from me as NIN with Ambu GKT, but SAM Kagero works well on C/G (find myself tossing one in here and there if I end up walling myself with Koki spam). Can't see any reason why it wouldn't be fine to use. Just get fire threnody / frazzle on it.
Out of curiosity, are you planning to do MNK + NIN or what slot is the NIN taking?
Out of curiosity, are you planning to do MNK + NIN or what slot is the NIN taking?
Yea, MNK + NIN is gonna be an experiment one night and I’m trying to plan out how to maximize each boss. I know before we moved over to the 9 boss DNC meta, we ran SAM and kagero worked really well so I agree…don’t see a reason why ambu gkt kagero wouldn’t work.
Asura.Lunafreya said: »
anecdotes on NIN hybrid dmg in sortie
I've posted anecdotes a handful NIN damage across these threads, just as recently as last month. For some reason, I can't find my logs or screenshots of the damage (maybe it was in a discord, or my previous laptop which I don't have access to anymore). Anyways,
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I've used it in Sortie 8b (yes we completed all bosses, Ninja can solo a/c objectives easily, probably b too). Blade Chi destroys AE, To destroys BF (ask for storm or threnody). 99k confirmed with the correct buffs. The biggest issues in Sortie is Ninja's best Non-SCing WS is Savage blade, which will conflict with the Bard/Cor, so you're going to either need to use Prime WS or Blade Ten. Both deal good damage, but they're not as strong as other WS like Origin/Mumei/Diarmuid (I'm stage 4 katana, 5 might be different story). Mikage is helpful to reduce subtle blow to basically nothing, which can help on Aita (Ninja can proc too). Shadows can block damage from BF's counters, making Ninja a great tank for it. Is Ninja ideal in Sortie? Not really, since everything wipes shadows, but it's good enough if you're geared to get the job done. I found recasting shadows a complete waste of time during fights, but that might be a good reason not to bring Ninja if you can't use shadows...PUGs probably won't take you on Ninja because they're mostly noobs that don't understand the job, so ymmv if you can get use out of it in Sortie. But it can be used there.
We didn't have a GEO for this PUG 8-boss and I was able to 90k-cap with :Chi & :To. Heishi of course, higher effective TP. I was underwhelmed by Zesho Meppo damage on bosses, but it would likely be better with better support (we did not have Aria in this PUG). I'd probably go again on NIN because it was fun, but no PUG would ever let me come as NIN DD unless I knew the leader (I did for the last one I joined).
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I didn’t think of To for BF, nice! If kagero works out that only leaves DH which as you mentioned could just be a zesho fight. Zesho probably fine for CG as well if kagero isn’t viable.
If he is wind hand, Blade To (Ice). Thunder hand you can Chi (earth). I never bothered equipping that GKT because of the awkward/fixed TP gain. It's kind of slow IMO. I don't even know how it interacts with Hoxne Ampulla. I just used Ten/Meppo instead (both were regrettably but expectedly weaker than Savage Blade)
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