Pachipachio V Hagun

Pachipachio tends to parse the same or better with Hagun, provided the users both have capped ACC.

The only reason people are saying "Hagun > All" is because it's what the bandwagon SAMs all grew up with.

"Pachipachio tends to parse the same or better with Hagun, provided the users both have capped ACC. "

And Rindo > pachi. No reason to own a pachi. Hagun and Rindo should cover all your situations.

It depends on your augments. If you can get Rindomaru with, say, sTP+16, ACC+5, WS Damage+5%, then it would be better.

But if you've tried augmenting a Rindomaru, sTP+16 alone is about as rare as -3 Perpetuation Cost on Fay Crozier.

The chances you'll get that with WS damage and ACC at the same time are slim to none.

That being said, if you did have those augments, Pachipachio would still do more damage per WS from the massive base DMG and Attack+12.

Nope the acc is just a bonus. I already did the math on this in this thread I believe. All you need is ws dmg+3-4% and enough stp for 5hit.

wouldn't onimaru be better than pachi?...

I don't think you need Ecphoria ring to get 5hit.

Rind= 16STP
Usu Body= 6STP
Rajas= 5STP
Usu shoes= 7STP
Brutal= 1STP
Rose Strap= 4STP
Job traits/merits= 35STP

Total STP needed to get 5hit with 450delay= 74STP

16+6+5+7+1+4+35= 74.

Was going off the guy's particular rindo w/ 15 stp, however not sure if need ecphoria for it or not still.

tested all. i choose to use hagun atm till somthing better comes along.


P.S.
pach does look cool tho lol

yes it is the same problem as for rindomaru, if you "meditate too much" hagun still wins, so its dependant on haste and double attack %. The higher the haste and da the better, because then a less important part of your ws damage comes from meditate, and its obvious that meditate favors hagun;

I second this and support his argument, the hagun beats the high majority or GKs (tested through my friends acc)..

Can easily pull off 1-1.6k gekkos with ease on his average, pachi just doesn't seem useful for a GK with Rindo and Hagun out there but as Vegetto said Hagun>Rindo>Pachi>Other GKs.

The hagun (ws at 200% bonus) just can't be beaten.

"yes it is the same problem as for rindomaru, if you "meditate too much" hagun still wins, so its dependant on haste and double attack %. The higher the haste and da the better, because then a less important part of your ws damage comes from meditate, and its obvious that meditate favors hagun;"

I never said that wasn't an issue w/ rindomaru. I was just saying that a good augmented rindomaru > pachi, so between rindo and hagun, all your bases are covered. Should never be a need for pachi.

Wow.

So much stupid in here I feel like I haven't missed a thing skipping the forums lately.

Anyone arguing for pachi here ought to be laughed off their server for their ignorance.

wwwwww

ignorance is ignoring maths that shows obvious evidence.

It's easy to jump a bandwagon, I wish more SAMs were questionning their gear all the time to try new stuffs and were more open minded. Anyway, I am sure you are convinced that 480 delay , 5 hit polearms are better than hagun ( on lolibris), although every polearm as an hidden stats: -50 accuracy, -50 attack on it, so it shouldnt be hard for you to understand that pachipachio can beat hagun. Ill show you an approximate maths like vegeto did that shows you the power of pachipachio :

taking my own gear stats ( mithra sam/war): tp gear is the same for both weapons, relatively standard: turban, A. torque, brutal, hollow, usu body, dusk, torreador, rajas, speed belt, byakkos, usu feet. I'll put even hagun at an advantage, assuming you need more than 450 accuracy (unlikely) so pachi has to use a cuchu mantle, while hagun uses his cerb +1. Obviously, hagun uses a sword strap while pachi uses a pole grip.

for WS gear, hagun is standard, and for pachi you remove 3 str ( usubody + hachi feet).

STATS:

hagun (TP): delay 437, DMG=75, fSTR=8, pDIF=1.5
hagun ( ws): DMG=75, fSTR=15, WSC=84, pDIF=2.4, fTP=1.975, overwhelm=1.19

15% DA, 66% haste


pachi (TP): delay 480, DMG=82, fSTR=8, pDIF=1.5
pachi ( WS): DMG=82, fSTR=14, WSC=82, pDIF=2.4, fTP=1.6625, overwhelm=1.19

17% DA, 66% haste

with the above stats you can do all the maths needed and see that pachi beats hagun. I'll do them for completeness.

I'll calculate the (average) dmg over 2min30sec which is the recast of meditate.

Hagun:

everage melee hit=(75+8)*1,5=124.5
number of melee hits= 2.5*60*60*1.15/(0,44*437)= 53.82 hits
number of ws= 53.8/5=10.76
everage WS dmg (non DA)=(75+15+84)*2.4*1.19*1.975=982.46
everage WS dmg ( DA counted)= 982*0.85+0.15*982*2.975/1.975=1056

total DMG=53,82*124,5+10.76*1056+meditate dmg(=1.6*1056 on average)

total DMG=19,759


Pachipachio: do the same maths I'll shorten it

avg melee=135
#melee =42,61
#WS =42,61/4=12,46
avg WS ( counting DA)=931.58

total=135*42.61+12.46*931.58+1.6*931.58=19,833


19,833/19,759=+0.37% dmg.

conclusion:
Pachipachio beats hagun when its at its disadvantage ( 450+ acc needed), if you have usu body feet and cuchu mantle. If you need less than 440 acc, then you don't even need cuchu mantle and pachi has a 12 attack advantage over hagun.

things I didn't take into account ( hence why the approxiate maths):

-sekkanoki, which favors hagun ( a bit more skill chain dmg);
-2hour ability= hagun obv;
-unlucky DA that happen on your last hit in your WS cycle ( favors pachi)
- WS and melee acc is not 100% but 95%.
- synchronisation of meditate tics with TP gain with pachipachio, favors pachipachio. In practice allows 2 or 3 -hit build during the 10-14 seconds of meditate. so in practice you do much more than 1.6* avg ws dmg with your meditated TP.

So in practice it's a bit more than 0.37%; with my full spread sheet that take into account the different DA that happen during a cycle, I find +1~2% ish.

Stick that up your *** veggy boy!

Mdkuser's math actually makes sense lol

Stick what up my ***? My point is that any time pachi would beat hagun that Rindo would beat pachi. And MD agrees. So you can stick that up your own ***. No reason to own a pachi if you have a good rindo

If you even go by his math, which I'm sure FailureMidgard has disputed on BG (or they go back and forth a lot), but let's say MD is 100% correct



If you go by what MD says, Rindo > Pachi, just like I said. No reason to own a pachi, especially for you since you DO have one of those good augment rindos.

You do realize what Mdkuser's known for, right.

That's what I thought.

lol meditate too much? that's nonsense you should be meditating every 2:30 sec lol if not then stop playing sam, pach will pawn in a 2 hour zerg but hagun will do more damage at 100% 200%, onimaru might be better for rana but rana is just an opener to darkness, no need for technical math, most one hit weapon skills' damage varies with tp any martial weapon will make it pawn, and on ragnarok pachi is 1m~1.5m hagun 2.5m, hagun will pawn most, i used to use a hagun till i started a relic, still on stage 2 lol, but i just might buy a hagun cause i miss it

This, folks, is what you get when a poster tries to criticize math he's never examined.

What Mdkuser was saying was that if more than a certain proportion or your WS come from Meditate, Hagun will pull ahead. IE, it's still valuable in situations where you're not on the mob full time, but Rindo/Pachi will win otherwise (provided Rindo has the appropriate augments).

I like how when MD posted numbers for his debate he did so with class. Also when Veg looked over it, he had a question about meditate and asked it? MD gave him numbers to support his statement and they both came to a civil agreement and accepted eachothers argument. Mutual respect between people that like to try different things and actually use parses and math to come to conclusion that helps the Sam community. You start your argument with eyeballed numbers and then tell Veg to stick it up his ***. Who do you think is helping the Sam community and whos the troll again?? This is only my third post ever but I read the forums everyday. I greatly respect Ironguys info on the Wiki and Vegetto's info here and on the wiki. I'll leave it at that cause I'd rather not be known as a troll. Have some respect for the people that put in all the work is all I ask.

Might just be me, but,



this may not exactly be the best thing to use for the time being.

Bingo we have a winner.

Haguuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun~ that is all.

I wasn't talking Pachi vs Rindo i was saying Pachi vs Hagun veggy

I check this now and again, hardly sit here all day and wait for people to respond to my posts...

I respect veggy's and everyone elses opinions. Is it not ok to joke around and have a bit of fun anymore? Or is everyone just so PC these days you cant screw around anymore without everyone jumping down your throat about being immature, without class, civil or a troll as you say? Sorry....to please you and the rest of the ffxiah communtity i should always make sure my responses are politically correct? Next you will *** about my grammar or spelling...

I never started this thread saying my "eyeballed" numbers were finite proof did I? I sure as hell don't think so. I remember saying "Been testing on numerous things, greater colibri, lesser colibri, sea mobs, mamools etc, and Pachipachio seems to come out on top everytime".....I know im not a ffxi math geek and i didn't have a parser and couldn't prove ***so I ASKED if anyone could.

When I said stick that up your arse it was basically me saying Veggy's math wasn't 100% accurate and things can be askewed even if done incorrectly in the slightest, either or could be true and would always depend on all the variables which are almost impossible to fully account for, no one is right or wrong and i never said that but i can't stand people who think they are always right when infact they most likely are not.

I wasn't here to argue, just stating my own opinion on the conduct from you to Veg, as opposed to MD and Veg's exchange. Everyone is entitled to have fun and goof around. I don't consider telling someone to "Stick that up your ***" a good form of messin around. Especially somone you only know from FFXIAH posts. Maybe a "how do you like them apples" next time or something of that sort :p Joking usually is supposed to be accepted by both parties as "fun" and "light-hearted". You didn't come off that way to me. Nor Veg from the way he accepted your wit. That's neither here nor there. Ultimately, when your the OP and asking for peoples experience on a particular subject, you definately should give a bit more respect than what you showed.

Ok... I threw together some gear sets for both and did some quick math... From what I'm seeing... The numbers don't add up for Mdk.

I used a few of Mdk's numbers/equations and will list them below. I didn't get into adjusting fSTR and all that. So, it could be off by a bit.

Also, it should be noted I threw on Crab Sushi and set the accuracy to 95% for both GK on Greater Colibri. The Hagun build was somewhere around 450 accuracy total. (~405 needed to cap acc on Colibri.)

I set both GK to have a constant double March and Haste. I also did not figure in damage bonuses from Berserk / Warcry. I did however add in Double Attack from Trait and gear. I ignored the 10% Zanshin due to the very small sample size of 150 seconds.

Using pretty standard gear for both.

Hagun gear had a delay of 162.1582, 17% DA, 95% Acc, Stp +13

Pachi gear had a delay of 187.0313, 17% DA, 95% Acc, Stp +24

If we say that my setups have the same fSTR and such as MDK's...

Hagun (TP): delay 162.1582, DMG=75, fSTR=8, pDIF=1.5, TP per hit 17
Hagun ( ws): DMG=75, fSTR=15, WSC=84, pDIF=2.4, fTP=1.975, overwhelm=1.19

Pachi (TP): delay 187.0313, DMG=82, fSTR=8, pDIF=1.5, TP per hit 20.6
Pachi ( WS): DMG=82, fSTR=14, WSC=82, pDIF=2.4, fTP=1.6625, overwhelm=1.19

Hagun:
Average melee hit: (75+8)*1.5=124.5
# of melee hits: 162.1582/60 = 2.7 seconds per hit 150/2.7 = 55 hits (rounded down)
Melee hits @ 95% acc w/ DA: (55*.17)*.95 = 60
# of ws= 60/5: 12
Average WS dmg (non DA): (75+15+84)*2.4*1.19*1.975=981.4644
Average WS dmg ( DA counted): 982*0.83+0.17*982*2.975/1.975=1023.21887724

Total Melee DMG: 60*124.5 = 7470
Total WS DMG: (12*.95)*1023) = 11253

Total DMG: 18723


Pachipachio:

Average melee hit: (82+8)*1.5 = 135
# melee: 187.0313/60 = 3.1 seconds per hit 150/3.1 = 48 hits (rounded down)
Melee hits @ 95% acc w/ DA: (48*.17)*.95 = 53
# of ws= 53/4: 13
Average WS dmg (non DA): (82+14+82)*2.4*1.19*1.6625 = 845.1618
Average WS dmg ( DA counted): (845*0.83) + ((845*.17) * (2.975/1.975) = 958.408

Total Melee DMG: 53*135 = 7155
Total WS DMG: (13*.95)*958) = 11496

Total DMG: 18651

Hagun = 18723
Pachi = 18651

Difference of = .386% in favor of Hagun. And I think I gave the Pachi a little too much dmg on the WS's.

It's actually 407 total Acc to cap on 82 339 Greater Coli, ur/my Calc defaults at 82 337 for some odd reason.

Edit**

I really would like to know why it does it too :/ Wish I could change it.

Well, regardless of 'what' it caps at, both GK were at 430+ to cap at 95% acc. :P

Yea I know, it's actually just really annoying every time I go to use the calc and it's messin up mah numbahs! >:O

Carry on.