Treasure Hunter Proc Rate Testing -TH 8 Versus 14 |
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Treasure hunter proc rate testing -TH 8 versus 14
Quote: The order of packets correlates to the order things happened on the server, which is why I recommended using an addon. I don't have any experience in scripting addons, but if I had one that was capable of doing this I'd be happy to use it to gather more data. Do you think you could point me in the direction of someone who would be able to build that?. If someone could produce an addon that standardizes the process of gathering data and produces logs, then multiple people could generate small logs and merging them all together we could create a really solid amount of data that would start being reliable, even with a small effort on each participating player, instead of demanding an effort of 2000 hours of samples on a single one.
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Fenrir.Melphina said: » I don't have any experience in scripting addons, but if I had one that was capable of doing this I'd be happy to use it to gather more data. Do you think you could point me in the direction of someone who would be able to build that?. I don't do anything with windower, I could throw together an Ashita one pretty easily. I imagine there are quite a few people who could do a windower one, it only uses a small subset of the functions that windower's parse addons use, but I don't have anyone in particular in mind. You'd use the incoming 0x50 to track current equipment for order of execution, and incoming 0x28 has everything else(attack rounds, containing all their swings, the th message, whether they crit, etc). Asura.Sechs said: » If someone could produce an addon that standardizes the process of gathering data and produces logs, then multiple people could generate small logs and merging them all together we could create a really solid amount of data that would start being reliable, even with a small effort on each participating player, instead of demanding an effort of 2000 hours of samples on a single one. Shiva.Thorny said: » no basis in anything besides your own arbitrary design From my perspective, the only thing that matters is this - does wearing TH14 result in a higher drop rate. All the other factors ultimately really do not matter. My last post calculates the boost in drop rate percentage, based on SE's TH data tables. If there is something wrong with the analysis - I'm open to pointing out the flaw in the logic. Shiva.Larrymc said: » From my perspective, the only thing that matters is this - does wearing TH14 result in a higher drop rate. Shiva.Thorny said: » It's not isolated for killspeed But we do agree on one point - the sample size is not large enough. Shiva.Thorny said: » The work should be in the data collection method, not the data collection itself. A logger that creates special logs divided in groups. First we need to define the groups, I'm not sure what we would need. 1) TH procs with TH3 (just traits) 2) TH procs with TH8 (traits + 5 in gear) 3) TH procs with TH14 (traits + 11 in gear) 4) TH procs with initial tag TH8, then melee with TH3 (just traits) Would we need any more data than that from these groups? When you open the addon and try to start it it would ask "Which group do you want to gather data for? You pick one and it locks your gear and voids your possibility to use WSs, until you stop it. It creates a log with the gear you used and all the data we need, log will be marked as Group1-4 so that when we start merging data we know which group to merge with. Then we would need to give indications to the willing contributors on how to gear up. Stuff like: Single hand only, level1 dagger to reduce damage so that you get more attacks for each monster (damage needs to be > than 0, attacks that hit for 0 do not generate TH level up), avoid multiattack gear so that the only multiattack is that from traits, etc. Then we would need to pick a zone with simple ilevel monsters that you can easily survive against with just 2x Bards and a Hasting healer trusts. We could compile a list of a few places like that where you can go and engage monsters for like 30+ mins and create a log. If like 20 people do that a couple of times we would probably already have enough data. It should be pretty easy to create an addon like this. The only "complicated" part would be handling the Gear Swapping for the group 4), would need to define Set1 and Set2 and so on. Nothing too hard to code but certainly more articulated than an addon that just locks your gear and logs your data from packets (so that data is gathered regardless of your chat filters). You're overthinking it. A proper addon would track your current gear from incoming 0x50s to get your current TH level, and the rest from action packets. You don't need to create all these weird conditions, you just need to collect more data. Ideally, you create a CSV with as many relevant values as possible:
zone, target id, mainhand weapon, offhand weapon, current job points, feint meirts, was feint active, was sa active, was ta active, Current TH level on mob, current TH level equipped, did TH proc, was the swing TH procced on a crit, how many attacks in the round, how many attacks in the round were a crit, anything else that might come to mind as relevant The point isn't to isolate it during the test, the point is to make an addon that turns *all* activity into data so nobody has to test. Then, you can use excel or whatever to filter the data to the parts you care about easily(exclude instanced zones due to unreliable packets, exclude SA/TA/feint, exclude people with too many or too few job points, filter by TH level, etc).
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Shiva.Thorny said: » Ideally, you create a CSV with as many relevant values as possible: I'd love an addon like this. If someone could create it I'd use it fulltime. I don't know who to ask though, but a collaborative effort to gather more usable data sounds wonderful.
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might make a full plugin if i'm feeling bored later this week, but here's the tricky stuff if anyone else feels like it:
(may not need all of this in windower, probably can just look for the additional effect part of packet lib on action packet?)
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Shiva.Larrymc said: » I performed another analysis of the data. I want to make sure we take into account the weight of each TH upgrade. Using the TH "ultra rare" column in bgwiki TH data, I have assigned a TH upgrade value to each TH level. (the difference between the % of the prior level to the next level) TH9 = .1 TH10 = .1 TH11 = .1 TH12 = .15 TH13 = .15 TH14 = .2 Using this data we assign a value to every TH upgrade in both data sets - then we take an average over each set. TH8 = 101 TH procs - total value of TH upgrade is 10.35 Attack rounds = 23,411 Average Treasure Hunter % boost per attack round: 0.0004421 TH14 = 112 TH procs - total value of TH upgrade is 11.7 Attack rounds = 25,183 Average Treasure Hunter % boost per attack round: 0.0004646 Wearing TH14 data results in a 5.089% boost in TH drop percent for the "ultra rare" drop class. Based on the small data set - it seems to help. offcause you are going going to get higher TH rankin when you do more swings on the same mobs. even with the same proc rate. gonge back to what i said before proc rate x number of swing = final speed. you are not isolating the later and arbitrarily deciding its the first part that made the difference for. stop ignoring factors just to get the results you want Shiva.Larrymc said: » Shiva.Thorny said: » no basis in anything besides your own arbitrary design From my perspective, the only thing that matters is this - does then you need to isolate the number of swings. You are taking a increase from more swings and just assihning it to the TH14 value. that is not how this works you can get the same ( or even better) results if you applied TH8 and just use chocobo knife otherwise naked and killed 40 mobs. you TH would be WAY higher than in a DPS set. each swing is a lottery ticket having 5 lottery ticker over 5 gives a bigger chance to wing. this does not translate to the lottery ticket themselves are better Shiva.Larrymc said: » Shiva.Thorny said: » It's not isolated for killspeed But we do agree on one point - the sample size is not large enough. Correct so why none of you comparisons take this metric into accounts ? I agree with DaneBlood on the issue. It's harder than it looks. What you need is a parser to count the number of hits you need under TH8 to get TH9 to proc.
If you count the number of hits after you already proced TH9 then those hits would make it a lot harder to measure the proc rate as none of them has the possibility of procing TH9 anymore. For example, if you need (on average) 50 hits to proc TH9 and an additional 150hits to proc TH10 then if you combine them then the number of hits to proc a TH is 100. This is wrong because TH9 is easier to proc than TH10. DaneBlood said: » Shiva.Larrymc said: » I performed another analysis of the data. I want to make sure we take into account the weight of each TH upgrade. Using the TH "ultra rare" column in bgwiki TH data, I have assigned a TH upgrade value to each TH level. (the difference between the % of the prior level to the next level) TH9 = .1 TH10 = .1 TH11 = .1 TH12 = .15 TH13 = .15 TH14 = .2 Using this data we assign a value to every TH upgrade in both data sets - then we take an average over each set. TH8 = 101 TH procs - total value of TH upgrade is 10.35 Attack rounds = 23,411 Average Treasure Hunter % boost per attack round: 0.0004421 TH14 = 112 TH procs - total value of TH upgrade is 11.7 Attack rounds = 25,183 Average Treasure Hunter % boost per attack round: 0.0004646 Wearing TH14 data results in a 5.089% boost in TH drop percent for the "ultra rare" drop class. Based on the small data set - it seems to help. offcause you are going going to get higher TH rankin when you do more swings on the same mobs. even with the same proc rate. gonge back to what i said before proc rate x number of swing = final speed. you are not isolating the later and arbitrarily deciding its the first part that made the difference for. stop ignoring factors just to get the results you want I think you are not carefully looking at the analysis. The number of hits = Attack rounds - and that is factored in. Edit: Perhaps the confusion is that I used the term "attack rounds" instead of just attack or melee hit or swing. You also state that this focused on the number of mobs - no where in this last analysis does it do so. Shiva.Thorny said: » (may not need all of this in windower, probably can just look for the additional effect part of packet lib on action packet?) Also you might be able to jump on our discord and ask if anyone is willing to make this addon since it would help the community at large someone might be willing to. https://discord.gg/aUrHCvk
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Shiva.Larrymc said: » You also state that this focused on the number of mobs - no where in this last analysis does it do so. You are because you using the reasults from the 40 mobs without removing the extra swing factors per mob. The resulting TH is mob based, the proc rater is swing based. if i swing 2.000.000.000 swings on a single mob i will most likely have an averageTH 14 per mob if i swing .2.000.000.000. with a new mob for each swing then the avaerage will be 8-9 (cant remember if first hit can make a proc upgrade as well as land base th) You keep focucsing on the high TH from the grops of mobs with a lot of swing on it wiithout removing the fact that the TH comes from the extra swings on the same mob so yeas you do because you keep mis inteperating the results by focussing on the resultign TH with inclides effect from more than the proc rate. DaneBlood said: » Shiva.Larrymc said: » You also state that this focused on the number of mobs - no where in this last analysis does it do so. You are because you using the reasults from the 40 mobs without removing the extra swing factors per mob. The resulting TH is mob based, the proc rater is swing based. if i swing 2.000.000.000 swings on a single mob i will most likely have an averageTH 14 per mob if i swing .2.000.000.000. with a new mob for each swing then the avaerage will be 8-9 (cant remember if first hit can make a proc upgrade as well as land base th) You keep focucsing on the high TH from the grops of mobs with a lot of swing on it wiithout removing the fact that the TH comes from the extra swings on the same mob so yeas you do because you keep mis inteperating the results by focussing on the resultign TH with inclides effect from more than the proc rate. Please forget about the number of mobs for a second - and just focus on melee swings. The (very small set of ) data shows that with TH14 - the TH proc rate is 3% higher than TH8. That is an undisputable fact (of the collected data sets). With the TH upgrade mechanic, the higher the TH level of the mob, the harder it is to achieve the next TH level. Otherwise after the initial TH8 proc a thf could switch to TH3 gear for the rest of the fight. But this is not the case - and really the entire point of this thread. It is because of this fact, that what appears to be a tiny % increase in the TH proc rate, could actually be very significant (in SE terms) in boosting the drop rate. The last analysis shows that what appears to be a tiny 3% boost, is actually much more significant, because even though it is a 3% boost in proc rates - those procs boost the drop rate by more than 3% due to SE TH drop% scaling tables. You are correct that the higher TH levels in the final outcomes are due to more total swings in that data set. However that absolutely does not explain the higher proc rate. I wish I had two data sets with the exact number of swings, and exact number of mobs. The idea of an addon to collect more data is the way to move forward. And I really want to thank @Melphina for providing the data for us to analyze. I have no skin in the game here - I just want the answer and don't really care which way it goes - but I do follow the numbers. I would personally prefer that the data shows no boost in TH proc rate so THFs don't have to wear TH14 gear full time. A summary of the last analysis is this: If there is truly an increase in TH proc rate wearing TH14 gear (I keep on saying this in every post - the data set is small), there is a multiplying factor that increases the drop rate even further due to the way SE has figures for drop rates in the TH table they provided. TH 14 is confirmed to be max lvl on monster but afaik we don't know if TH past lvl 14 also affects lvl up rate?
4 Plunderer's Armlets +3, 3 skulker's poulaines, 1 belt, 2 x 3 from dark matter augs, 1 ring, 3 x 2 from main/off hand Gandring (?), 1 from perfect lucky egg, 3 from trait. i don't know if i missed any but thats already TH lvl 25. maybe there is a steep increase past TH lvl ~20? even if you write a addon and everyone + their mom particiaptes in gathering data, only a small fraction of them are going to purchase 2 gandring and switch their adoulin reward ring for the test. imho there are too many variables. maybe we should just put our collective autistic/OCD knee jerk reaction of writing a addon for everything on hold for a second. i say we inception style implant a need for answers on this ancient question in the heads of our JP fellow players so someone phones matsui about it. ...The whole point was "does more than 8 work"
The more than 8 you had, the more the effect would show. Going to the fullest extreme to see if it worked at all and working backwards saves a lot of testing. You just have to change the model to count attacks instead of how much TH a mob had when it died as the dps will be drastically different. Which is what that does. You can compare 1000 attacks at any dps if you can see what attack number proced the TH. No one wants to read a million line log to count attacks though lol. From BgWiki: "Upgrading TH levels from normal attack rounds is inversely proportional to the difference between your current TH level in trait/gear and the monster's current TH level"
So as an example (purely made up - just for illustration) TH Proc rate if mob is at TH8 and gear is TH8 - 5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH9 and gear is TH8 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH10 and gear is TH8 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH11 and gear is TH8 - 3.5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH12 and gear is TH8 - 2% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH13 and gear is TH8 - 1% The goal of the thread is to try to determine if wearing TH14 gear changes it to something like this (where the benefit is only noticed at higher TH levels): TH Proc rate if mob is at TH8 and gear is TH14 - 5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH9 and gear is TH14 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH10 and gear is TH14 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH11 and gear is TH14 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH12 and gear is TH14 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH13 and gear is TH14 - 2% The TH level of the mob is a factor - if all the mobs were killed before TH10 was reached, we could inaccurately conclude there is no difference. Edit: I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) we have enough collected data from JP and other sources that we know for certain - when the mob is at TH8 - there is no difference in TH proc rate when wearing TH8 gear vs TH14 gear. (That would be extremely easy to measure and there would be no question). The question is does it help when the mob is at TH10, TH11 TH12 or TH13.
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from bgwiki: "Treasure Hunter can only proc on the first hit of an attack round."
Has this been proven/disproven as I see a lot of statements about number of attacks in this thread? I'd figure if BG is correct it'd be about attack rounds instead of # of attacks unless you know your MA % and subtract those out with a large enough sample size to ignore rng. Is treasure hunter like RDM Enspell II? edit: I see, the reason no one responded to this was I'm an idiot and it was answered back in 2017. https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/238/#3568308 Asura.Chiaia said: » Also you might be able to jump on our discord and ask if anyone is willing to make this addon since it would help the community at large someone might be willing to. https://discord.gg/aUrHCvk Shiva.Larrymc said: » From BgWiki: "Upgrading TH levels from normal attack rounds is inversely proportional to the difference between your current TH level in trait/gear and the monster's current TH level" So as an example (purely made up - just for illustration) TH Proc rate if mob is at TH8 and gear is TH8 - 5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH9 and gear is TH8 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH10 and gear is TH8 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH11 and gear is TH8 - 3.5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH12 and gear is TH8 - 2% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH13 and gear is TH8 - 1% The goal of the thread is to try to determine if wearing TH14 gear changes it to something like this (where the benefit is only noticed at higher TH levels): TH Proc rate if mob is at TH8 and gear is TH14 - 5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH9 and gear is TH14 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH10 and gear is TH14 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH11 and gear is TH14 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH12 and gear is TH14 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH13 and gear is TH14 - 2% The TH level of the mob is a factor - if all the mobs were killed before TH10 was reached, we could inaccurately conclude there is no difference. Edit: I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) we have enough collected data from JP and other sources that we know for certain - when the mob is at TH8 - there is no difference in TH proc rate when wearing TH8 gear vs TH14 gear. (That would be extremely easy to measure and there would be no question). The question is does it help when the mob is at TH10, TH11 TH12 or TH13. I think TH8->TH9 would be sufficient. There is a huge difference between TH14 and TH8. Its really hard to get statistically significant number after TH9 and designing proper tests would be difficult. Leviathan.Andret said: » Shiva.Larrymc said: » From BgWiki: "Upgrading TH levels from normal attack rounds is inversely proportional to the difference between your current TH level in trait/gear and the monster's current TH level" So as an example (purely made up - just for illustration) TH Proc rate if mob is at TH8 and gear is TH8 - 5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH9 and gear is TH8 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH10 and gear is TH8 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH11 and gear is TH8 - 3.5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH12 and gear is TH8 - 2% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH13 and gear is TH8 - 1% The goal of the thread is to try to determine if wearing TH14 gear changes it to something like this (where the benefit is only noticed at higher TH levels): TH Proc rate if mob is at TH8 and gear is TH14 - 5% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH9 and gear is TH14 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH10 and gear is TH14 - 4% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH11 and gear is TH14 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH12 and gear is TH14 - 3% TH Proc rate if mob is at TH13 and gear is TH14 - 2% The TH level of the mob is a factor - if all the mobs were killed before TH10 was reached, we could inaccurately conclude there is no difference. Edit: I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) we have enough collected data from JP and other sources that we know for certain - when the mob is at TH8 - there is no difference in TH proc rate when wearing TH8 gear vs TH14 gear. (That would be extremely easy to measure and there would be no question). The question is does it help when the mob is at TH10, TH11 TH12 or TH13. I think TH8->TH9 would be sufficient. There is a huge difference between TH14 and TH8. Its really hard to get statistically significant number after TH9 and designing proper tests would be difficult. It is only sufficient if the TH proc distribution is not like the model in the example above. If you are expecting that the TH proc rate when a mob is at TH8 will be boosted with TH14 gear - then yes. However I do not think this is the case, nor am I expecting it. Shiva.Larrymc said: » Edit: I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) we have enough collected data from JP and other sources that we know for certain - when the mob is at TH8 - there is no difference in TH proc rate when wearing TH8 gear vs TH14 gear. (That would be extremely easy to measure and there would be no question). The question is does it help when the mob is at TH10, TH11 TH12 or TH13. That is a very interesting questions. But even harder to test or at least even more time consuming to test TH8 sticks on first hit so it nice and easy to start testing on. The test I would be interested in would be Have TH8 on you tag the mob wit th. start swing for procs. when TH is 9 procced. kill mob and start over. Redo but with th14 gear This way all swings would be on TH8 only mobs DaneBlood said: » Shiva.Larrymc said: » Edit: I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) we have enough collected data from JP and other sources that we know for certain - when the mob is at TH8 - there is no difference in TH proc rate when wearing TH8 gear vs TH14 gear. (That would be extremely easy to measure and there would be no question). The question is does it help when the mob is at TH10, TH11 TH12 or TH13. That is a very interesting questions. But even harder to test or at least even more time consuming to test TH8 sticks on first hit so it nice and easy to start testing on. The test I would be interested in would be Have TH8 on you tag the mob wit th. start swing for procs. when TH is 9 procced. kill mob and start over. Redo but with th14 gear This way all swings would be on TH8 only mobs The current belief based on the one response from SE is having TH up to the current TH on mob is what you need to not receive negative effects to proc chance. If that is 100% accurate, a test on a TH8 mob with THF at TH8 or TH14 should have same results in long(long) run. The belief that the TH8 cap is the cap for everything and any gear that puts you over TH8 doesn't effect anything would need to be tested at at least TH9 to prove or disprove that SE statement, because any TH over TH8 should only matter up to the TH level that is on mob. |
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