Offhand Katana

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By 2020-12-28 18:46:24
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By SimonSes 2020-12-28 18:46:51  
Asura.Memes said: »
I wasn't aware that it was 1.15*fTP. It doesn't add 15% damage like WSD but only for Savage? Or a separate tier for it after WSD is calculated?
Asura.Memes said: »
malakef said: »
It’s actually last after everything same way that REMA WSD bonus is.
That's what I thought.

As general +15% multiplier it can be applied in various places in calculation. I just wrote I applied it to fTP in case I would be forced to show screenshots.

Its doesnt matter if you calculate it like that:
fTP * 1.15 * pdif * BaseDamage or (fTP * pDIF * BaseDamage) * 1.15 or (fTP * 1.15) * pdif * BaseDamage etc.

Just to prove it on simple numbers:
fTP 10
pdif 3
Base Damage 100

10 * 1.15 * 3 * 100 = 3450
(10 * 3 * 100) * 1.15 = 3000 * 1.15 = 3450
(10 * 1.15) * 3 * 100 = 11.5 * 3 * 100 = 3450
 
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By 2020-12-28 18:50:32
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By 2020-12-28 18:52:41
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By SimonSes 2020-12-28 18:58:01  
Asura.Memes said: »
Nothing in either of our posts implied we thought the math would be different - just discussing where it is actually calculated in the game. I don't know how people came to the conclusion that it is its own multiplier when it could be an fTP multiplier (the outcome is the same, that's not the query).

Well Im not sure where game applies it, but since it was tested to be 15% multiplier, it doesnt really matter where you include it in calculations, assuming you will do it right. I just wrote where I applied it, because If I would post screenshot without that note and you would see 12.79375 fTP instead of 11.125, it could be confusing I think.
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By malakef 2020-12-28 19:02:53  
The main reason I like to list it last is so when doing the math you can see what the Naegling/REMA is actually contributing to the outcome as you map it out step by step. You could condense it but as Simon points out that confuses people. I think it’s cleaner to just look at it last for its contribution.
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By SimonSes 2020-12-28 19:06:55  
Asura.Memes said: »
SimonSes said: »
If hybrid WSs are not resisted tho, even without malaise, they should make more damage with good enough set.
Even on COR+RNG with massive amounts of MAcc I think unresisted LS/TF is 85-90% (not sure if this is the same with any power creep since I last played properly) so surely NIN would be much lower?

Well, depends where? I dont think I ever noticed LS having macc problems outside of Wave3, but fomors are simply very resistant against dark element specifically (Same as Omen bosses for example, thats why you dont use LS there unless with some SUPER macc buffs ideally with Rayke). Same for TF on mobs that doesnt resist light specifically. NIN has 3 hybrid WSs. :Chi being the best, but if earth is resisted you can still try Ice and Water. Also if we are talking about comparison for wave 3, then Im not sure if Naegling/Hitaki is an option there at all. Even with accuracy gear, Hitaki will have accuracy problems there and when Hitaki is not an option, Naegling is not an option too.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-12-28 23:14:55  
SimonSes said: »
Asura.Memes said: »
Do the same calcs as Austar for average WS damage poproszę

Już się robi.

Used same set for :Ten thats in NIN guide.

With:
- 55% WSD (I changed SoA ring to Regal, but included 5% WSD gift)
- 340 STR
- 204 MND
- 274 DEX
- Capped 3.685 pdif for both
- 14.5 fTP (2750TP) for :Ten
- 11.125 fTP (2250TP) for Savage. Applied 15% Naegling bonus here for 12.79375 fTP
- Both weapon base damage 166
- Ignoring fSTR and offhand/Multi-attack proc hits

Savage: 32006
Ten: 29003

Pushing to more real 3000TP on Ten (1250+1000+250+500) and 2500TP Savage (1250+1000+250)

Savage: 34524
Ten: 31003

So WS damage alone with Hitaki, Savage will win. Now you need to keep in mind that Heishi/Hitaki will get TP faster, but on the other hand the result will sometimes be, faster WS, but also sometimes wasted TP by going over 1250. Overall when Hitaki can be used and physical WS damage is priority, Naegling+Savage will be better. If hybrid WSs are not resisted tho, even without malaise, they should make more damage with good enough set.
Did you factor in Boost STR? I added prints to all of the stats you provided and the only one that stands out is the difference in STR. I also didn't use 0 fSTR. But that's still not 10K worth of damage.
Code
11.125
21978.1394
Accuracy:  1076 897
Hit Rate:  99 95
61
306
206
(3.6850000000000005, 3.6850000000000005) (3.6850000000000005, 3.6850000000000005)
159 44



Edit: nevermind, I found it. I had a parentheses off one index so weapon skill damage was added to the damage instead of multiplying.
Code
34152.1742
Accuracy:  1076 897
Hit Rate:  99 95
61
306
206
(3.6850000000000005, 3.6850000000000005) (3.6850000000000005, 3.6850000000000005)
159 44
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By Thunderjet 2020-12-29 02:30:52  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
o

what are ur dps numbers with dagger +1 with tens?
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By DaneBlood 2020-12-30 10:30:33  
Asura.Memes said: »
True, but it is normally expressed as being multiplied at the end. I just thought it was strange to express it this way. It could be as fTP or as its own buff - how would we know? It is believed to be its own multiplier. Why do we say the same about relics then too?

you would know as he clearly wrote in in parenthesis to explain why he did it
Quote: "Applied 15% Naegling bonus here for 12.79375 fTP"


Normal is a dangerous value to use.
Normal people dont get percentage vs percentage points that well.

Saying it "in the end" it not necessarily correct either if we do look into the order of factors in the code. I dont think anyone really know if it applied in the beginning, the middle, or the end, coding wise. We just know how the results are and built a fitting model.

also I cant answer you why people are saying stuff they are. but im guess the add any NEW factor introduced as "in the end" cause that how they would write it down in their model and/or it makes it easier for people that are not that well with understanding math to get its a separate factor.

the bottom line is still
The math was correct.
You questioned it. you got the explanations


Asura.Memes said: »
Nothing in either of our posts implied we thought the math would be different - just discussing where it is actually calculated in the game. I don't know how people came to the conclusion that it is its own multiplier when it could be an fTP multiplier (the outcome is the same, that's not the query).

you said you get and then you ask a question indicating you dont.
It does not matter as long as as in individual factor in a row of factors.
There is no difference. That is how math works

Its like asking if a zebra is black with white stripes or white with black stripes.
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By DaneBlood 2020-12-30 10:57:17  
malakef said: »
The main reason I like to list it last is so when doing the math you can see what the Naegling/REMA is actually contributing to the outcome as you map it out step by step. You could condense it but as Simon points out that confuses people. I think it’s cleaner to just look at it last for its contribution.

Really shouldn't confuse anyone
1: understanding multiplication is middle school stuff.
2: it was clearly noted. In case somebody failed middle school
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By malakef 2020-12-30 11:29:09  
And if you have been on this forum enough that’s exactly the conclusion you would draw.
 
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By 2020-12-30 12:47:06
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 Odin.Svele
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By Odin.Svele 2023-02-21 04:45:06  
Interesting to do not see anyone mentioned Kunimitsu (Maybe I have over read it) but this is the one I use in the moment I need to Magic Burst for example Sortie. Main is either Kikoku or Heishi .. depends on situation.
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By Foxfire 2023-02-21 04:53:38  
Odin.Svele said: »
Interesting to do not see anyone mentioned Kunimitsu (Maybe I have over read it) but this is the one I use in the moment I need to Magic Burst for example Sortie. Main is either Kikoku or Heishi .. depends on situation.
Perhaps because Sheol Gaol T3 and—by extension—Kunimitsu didn't release until February 2021, two months after the last post on this thread.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2023-02-21 05:09:57  
Odin.Svele said: »
Interesting to do not see anyone mentioned Kunimitsu (Maybe I have over read it) but this is the one I use in the moment I need to Magic Burst for example Sortie. Main is either Kikoku or Heishi .. depends on situation.
Kunimitsu didn't exist back then, Svele.

The list in that first page is still somewhat relevant but I would personally remove some options add add instead these 3 ones:

1) Kunimitsu
2) Gleti's Dagger
3) Crepuscular Knife


I think they're all pretty close, Gleti's might be ahead for pure DPS but it depends what you're doing.
My favourite choice personally is Kunimitsu because of how versatile and "all arounder" it is. It's pretty good for physical DPS, it gives racc for Daken, it has magical stats for bursts and hybrids and so on.
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 Siren.Akson
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By Siren.Akson 2023-02-21 09:34:35  
Odin.Svele said: »
Interesting to do not see anyone mentioned Kunimitsu (Maybe I have over read it) but this is the one I use in the moment I need to Magic Burst for example Sortie. Main is either Kikoku or Heishi .. depends on situation.
You were actually looking to find THIS instead

It Lists Kunimitsu repeatedly nonstop even when WRONG.

As in TP Bonus Magian is #1 Offhand for Chi / Ten
Kunimitsu is NOT the #1 Offhand for Chi / Ten so yeah

Kunimitsu is not even close to matching Magian Offhand.
Nothing Gear Swap wise increases WSD via 10k+ except Magians
Not even Nyame R30 is such a drastic Upgrade to WSD

TP Bonus is just as OP for Chi / Ten as it is for Savage Blade
Just an FYI for those whom just Copy what they are told to use
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