Rune Hate Management Vs. Paladin

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Rune hate management vs. Paladin
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By kishr 2019-07-13 10:04:40  
Hello,

Would like to ask, after reading through the threads here.
Versus a paladin in dyn D, how would a rune out hate and what would be the way to go about it.
I have the Blu spells and the hate gear from the main thread.
But my hate gets ripped fast.
So I'm asking what would a rune do to out hate a paladin.

Thanks.
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 Asura.Meliorah
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By Asura.Meliorah 2019-07-13 10:30:12  
After an aoe spell I default to foil spam. Single target I spam flash and foil while dealing damage, jettatars for an extra spike in hate. I havent had to rely on many other spells to spam to keep hate with a good dd set and buffs you should be throwing out plenty of hate.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 10:53:36  
During regular pt without a pld yes, but dyn D or dual tank situations.
Using poison gas and what u said and blank gaze and anything I throw at it, pld rips hate near instant.
I'm wondering why.
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-07-13 10:54:42  
a lot of RUN /ja's are on short enough timers that after grabbing hate on a bunch of mobs that will live a bit (not speaking of wave 1, they just don't live long enough) you can run a cycle of an AoE spell (like geist wail), foil, /ja (like valiance, swordplay or battuta), AoE spell, foil, and then things should be pretty solid on you. Save your Valiance to be used when it can hit the max number of party members comfortably.

Throwing in a flash on the current target is always a good thing, as that target is going to be the most likely to run towards DDs or the support pack due to actions by other party members being done on that mob.

It might sound silly, but double check that your midcast sets for blu spells and native hate spells (foil, flash) are loaded with your +enmity gear and not another set. I went too long not realizing that my lua rules were using +enhancing duration gear over +enmity gear on Foil, for example.

Lastly, while I do tank on RUN and am getting better, most of this advice was that which was given to me by tanks I highly respect, not personally developed tactics. True credit goes to those much more apt than I.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 11:10:56  
Thanks but,
I resorted to my fast cast just being in enmity set,
And I'm still getting ripped.
Why can a pld easy over throw my enmity,
Is it normal, or is there a way to over throw a pld's enmity.
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-07-13 11:19:25  
hmm, trying to imagine the scenario you describe. I'm picturing this:

You're the main tank who gets initial hate on the mobs in the pull, 3-8 mobs depending on the wave/pull.

Mobs get slept, while you continue to do hate moves and your DDs start mowing them down.

Among those DDs is a PLD, likely your group's backup Tank who takes over if you go down. But instead of acting like a DD while you're standing and tanking, the PLD is acting, well, like a PLD and doing hate moves of their own, and then the PLD pulls hate from the single target they're working on.

Half the reason you're losing hate is because every damage hit you take reduces your enmity, but the PLD isn't facing that issue because while they do their hate moves, the mob is still initially beating on you.

The other half is that your PLD isn't doing their job correctly. While you're alive and actively tanking, they should just be DD'ing, not firing off Sentinel, Provoke, Flash and the like.

If the situation is different, do explain- possibly someone more versed in this can give better answers.
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-07-13 11:21:35  
I added an enmity value sheet to my RUN guide a while ago, it does help with knowing what spells are best for enmity gain and allows you to plan ahead.

My current enmity tactic for holding a wave of mobs that I cannot afford to lose hate with I go 25k-30k Volatile enmity in under 5 seconds using only 2-3 Job abilites, excluding 1 hour.

I use Sheep Song if /blu and Poisonga as /drk as my Max DT set with high HP. Nothing hits harder than 0 damage aside from crit hits. Helps a lot for maintaining HP dip and not using SIRD in midcast.
This is just to tag all mobs in range to estbalish AoE enmity.

Step 2 is run towards party members, as many as possible, hopefully 4-6 and AoE liement -> Manually cancel Liement then aoe Valiance.

With a good Enmity set, Liement and Valiance hitting 6 people twice is over 26k Volatile enmity, cap is 30k.

This strat does work for pretty much anything, but works best if you can reach multiple party members for extra enmity boost, but hitting 1-2 is fine too.

I use this strategy for tanking smn burns, melee zergs and literally nothing pulls hate in the first 5 minutes. It pretty much locks all enmity down for a few minutes.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 11:29:03  
@celeb yes I understand u get u lose enmity, and the pld is doing his job over powering me.

@shiraj thx I'll try that
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-07-13 11:35:19  
Quote:
Among those DDs is a PLD, likely your group's backup Tank who takes over if you go down. But instead of acting like a DD while you're standing and tanking, the PLD is acting, well, like a PLD and doing hate moves of their own, and then the PLD pulls hate from the single target they're working on.

This is actually a very important reason why i actually choose to sacrifice a ton of enmity + gear for max DT. Ever since i went 75% pdt in enmity set i hold hate 10x better than when i went max enmity+. It actually has a huge part of it. I've learned to time my spells on RUN very well, so being hit in midcast doesn't effect me much, but when they do hit, they hit for 0-10 because of this set and it reduces enmity loss by quite a bit which i do think is under utilised.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-07-13 11:35:28  
but why is the PLD doing that job was my question. If you're the tank, he should back off.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 12:09:16  
How to stop PLD removing the hate so easily is the question.
I'm asking someone that has experience with this, not speculation, or avoiding the asked question for the answer.
How to counteract this, what are the abils that work, without a try this or that. who has experience with this issue?

Go take a pld friend with your rune, and make a hate battle.
Explain how you win as rune if u can.
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By oyama 2019-07-13 12:14:27  
Quote:
So I'm asking what would a rune do to out hate a paladin.

The short answer is JAs and/or DDing in a hybrid set, along with flash and foil. Liement, Valiance, and One For All give their enmity values for each person hit including yourself, allowing you to spike hate massively and quickly if you are in range of your party members, and Battuta/Pflug/Rayke/Gambit all have high enmity values as well, plus Battuta prevents a lot of hate loss on stronger targets from damage it prevents, and allows you to generate more hate from dealing damage since it allows you to switch to a more offensive mode while remaining relatively safe.

/Blu spells are good for AoE tagging and maintaining strong CE over time with low recast spells if you aren't DDing, with the occasional decent VE spike from Jettatura. They are not what is going to help you prevent a pld hate spike from ripping the mob off you. RUN's native tools will if you use them effectively.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 12:17:25  
^
ty
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-07-13 12:27:04  
This all comes down to playing RUN as a RUN. Rotate JAs with spells, keep continues hate gain coming. PLD sucks at long distance hate management, good volatile, still falls behind rune, but it's aight.

You can't rely on only JAs to hold hate. Rotations on RUN are important for this reason. I see this a lot - spamming JAs is not the best way to hold hate.
Also some spells like Poison breath aren't good for enmity.

I've mained RUN for 3+ years now and I've made many mistakes like this and overcome these mistakes. And The methods which work best for me was what i stated above. Nothing rips hate off of that enmity boost above, i could guarantee it.

PLD shouldn't come close to the same level of enmity control as a RUN just because of how shafted PLD got. It sucks for holding hate.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 12:39:39  
Shiraj, could you explain a ja and spell rotation against a pld trying to out hate you please.
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-07-13 12:45:41  
I explained it on my rune fencer guide:

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Rune_Fencer_End-Game_Tank_Guide

PLD should never keep up with RUN in terms of keeping hate. It just shouldn't happen. Which is one reason PLD is rarely used in end-game anymore. Its hate management is just awful.

The rotation is against everything, not just a PLD.
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 Leviathan.Kingkitt
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By Leviathan.Kingkitt 2019-07-13 12:47:49  
What's you enmity set look like?
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By kishr 2019-07-13 12:55:49  
from main rune thread, just missing the 2 ears.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-07-13 12:58:50  
Paladin's pretty good at creating an initial hate spike via Sentinel and/or Divine Emblem, so if you aren't taking full advantage of your tools and they are utilizing their own, then your outcome isn't terribly surprising.

Quote:
Using poison gas and what u said and blank gaze and anything I throw at it, pld rips hate near instant.

Poison Breath is not an enmity spell, so if that's what you meant then you need to stop wasting time using it.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 13:48:16  
Poison gas, the aoe vit down spell from the giant undead slugs.
That seem to make quite a enmity boost.
Didn't say breath.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 13:58:27  
Ty shiraj, I'll view it, thanks for the feedback everyone.
@zix your days r numbered!!!!
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By kishr 2019-07-13 14:08:00  
Asura.Shiraj said: »
I explained it on my rune fencer guide:

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Rune_Fencer_End-Game_Tank_Guide

PLD should never keep up with RUN in terms of keeping hate. It just shouldn't happen. Which is one reason PLD is rarely used in end-game anymore. Its hate management is just awful.

The rotation is against everything, not just a PLD.

Thread is solved by his post, tyvm!!!
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2019-07-13 14:09:56  
The Plds were doing what they do. They established their initial hate spike. In general, a pld would throw up Sentinel which gives +100 enmity and massive hate spike in everything around them. Then they throw everything warcry, palisade, rampart...etc. their hate level would shot through the roof and pint whatever mob your fighting to the Pld.

This is especially true if the Pld is taking minimal damage with shield blocking.

They would loose hate eventually to DD if the mobs have a lot of HP unless they cure cheat their way - which would slow down the evitable until their JA recharged.

For RUN, you actually need good enmity set to throw up the initial hate spike with Valliance, Battuta and Liement. However, once you established initial hate, you're golden. Just spamming Foil and whatever that comes with your sub job as well as fishing out damage.

Of course, since you lack palisade, you will rapidly loose hate with all the mobs beating on you. It's important to stack up on DT gear and a strong phalanx to help out initially before you have established solid hate.
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-07-13 14:16:57  
Paladin not only gets shafted against rune fencer on JAs/Foil, they also won't be using abilities and spells in as much +enmity gear. Realistically on pally some of your slots are always going to be devoted to keeping your HP swing in check... if I swapped to full +enmity gear I'd lose almost 1k HP.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 14:22:57  
Not to be rude, but,
What can rune do. Not what can pld do.
Shiraj posted a link clearly stating it.
 Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2019-07-13 15:12:52  
Other people assumed that the Paladin is in a DD set, but OP never said that.

Is it a case that you're just offended that this PLD can out-hate you? Is one doing AOE pulls and one is supposed to pull off, or are you losing everything to the PLD?

From your writing style, you sound like English might be your second language. If that's the case and the PLD shares a language with you, speak to them and maybe you can learn from them.

It's possible the PLD might be starting with too much enmity moves and you can talk to them.

You also said "Thanks but, I resorted to my fast cast just being in enmity set." If you're using this set for every spell, you need some strong enmity in there. A hybrid set. Otherwise, use different sets for different spells. Enmity/Fast Cast on Foil is good, enmity on Phalanx doesn't matter.

It's pretty likely that, if your RUN is decently geared (and it probably is) you're probably not gaining much (or nothing) on recast reduction or casting-time reduction when you have Val and party buffs.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 17:20:37  
I speak fine.
The ls PLD is a friend. He's a good pld.
Certainty not offended,by his tanking.
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By Afania 2019-07-13 17:28:08  
kishr said: »
Poison gas, the aoe vit down spell from the giant undead slugs.
That seem to make quite a enmity boost.
Didn't say breath.

Took me a while to figure out stinking gas is what you were trying to say.

Its from flesh not slugs either.

And yeah its 320 CE and VE according to wiki, not too bad.
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By kishr 2019-07-13 18:02:15  
Sorry they undead giant slug looking.
Family I agree.
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By Felgarr 2019-07-13 18:22:25  
The take-away here is that RUN has ~3x more JAs compared to a PLD at any given time, for gaining enmity. Also, alternating between Flash/AOE BLU/AOE DRK spell, followed by Foil spam also works in a RUN's favor, against PLD. (PLD's timers are much higher, and yes, someone said above, that a PLD needs more in enmity+ gear to maintain that same hate while watching their HP-swing. All of RUN's AF pieces just contribute to this in a better way).

However, since we're talking about the decline of PLD as an end-game tank, can we acknowledge that the Cover JA was once great for maintaining hate against single targets? That's a play style that is unlikely to come back any time soon. :(
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