To Automate, Or Not To Automate

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2010-06-21
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フォーラム » FFXI » General » To Automate, or Not to Automate
To Automate, or Not to Automate
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-04-08 16:51:42  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Afania said: »
If someone cant esuna I wouldnt care if they use react. Just dont demand everyone else should use it "or else you suck" over a simple mechanic thats not even a big deal.
It's a VERY big deal. I've watched 3 groups wipe from it already.

Everything you think is "easy" add 11 difficulty for assuran correction.

Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Hopefully someone makes a bunch of alts to spam easy solo with trusts on your server to bump wait times more if thats how you people think.

If anyone was going to do that, it would be me that does it.

It wouldn't be a big deal if you could not be an *** and make some friends.
 Asura.Eiryl
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サーバ: Asura
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user: Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-08 17:04:33  
That stage is past. Money Onry.

After the next ban cycle if this piece of ***is still going maybe I'll role play fun guy instead.
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By Torzak 2019-04-08 17:06:49  
The automation that peeves me:

CPing/Exping while asleep, at work, at the bar, or otherwise not at your computer for hours at a time.

#1) You can't respond to tells for a respect or a courtesy message/goal/objective/request/anything.

#2) It's often times blatantly obvious that you're botting because the observable behavior of your toons is robotic/consistent.

#3) The bots are often so dumb they attack CFH'd targets like Beist and proceed to get themselves killed trying. It's actually proven to be a fun way to test who is botting in escha - you get Beist to pop and then CFH it and sleep it and see which dumb dumb attacks it and gets themselves killed. Some of the bots have been improved and will no longer fight Beist haha. Also, bots can often attack what would be to a real player an obviously slept target near an actual CP party - it's slept and in place for a next kill. At that point, the bot is harassing the legit party. Also, a lot of times you can take a bot for a walk... far far away... it's amusing.

#4) After a whole hour of me holding every mob in a botted area (24+ mobs) far and away from the bot's scripted area with something like RDM with an OP phalanx set, you then have a friend in the botted area watching the bots run back and forth like they are on crack or something and you then send them a tell like, "how's the CP?" and then they jump on 20mins *after* you sent the tell crying a river of *your* "harassment" because of holding mobs and how they are going to call a GM on you. Yes, please do. You're clearly going through trees and through logs or other terrain obstacles and running faster than 18% movement speed while wearing ZERO movement speed gear. Not only that, but you didn't even know that the mobs were all being held in another location for the last hour and possibly wouldn't have known if we didn't send a tell asking how the CP was. That's how obvious and ridiculous some of these bot sessions are... and how ridiculous some of the people behind these bots can be, that they'd threaten to call a GM on me for holding some targets away from them while they were clearly not just botting, but speed hacking and going through terrain that they shouldn't be able to go through.

I'm a firm believer that, while AFK, your toon's progression should be limited to bazaar/AH sales and a few misc other timing considerations that are just simply part of the game. Your toon shouldn't be botting the AH, crafting while botting the AH, killing stuff, etc all while you're away from the computer for *hours*.

I personally don't really care if you use something like react or gearswap, or an automated remedy for paralyze or automated echo drop for silence. I do care if you're position hacking your dead corpse to a safe location - that's ridiculous.

Honestly, there's probably a bunch of stuff that's gray area for a lot of people and they just accept it or deal with it and there's other things that some people can't accept or don't want to deal with. I think most legit players would agree that it sucks going to a camp for CP only to find that it's being monopolized by people who aren't even sitting at their computer.

For me, I wish SE would start deleveling BLATANT CP/EXP/ROE quest botters or cheaters to level 1. Doesn't really hurt their bottom line for subscriptions, it allows the player to learn a lesson and still be able to play the game, and makes it obvious that that behavior isn't going to be tolerated. Repeat offenders can have every job deleveled to 1 for all I care. And if they can't learn their lesson still, reset all their magic/combat skills, too.
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By Shichishito 2019-04-08 19:02:32  
Afania said: »
I dont really care much about automating or not in a 17 year old video game. If I do well in this game, Im not getting a promotion, nor recognization from my parents.

i see this argument thrown in quite a lot.
chess is hundreds of years old and i'm pretty sure most chess players would still be pretty pissed if you turn on DeepMind or AlphaZero mid match.
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-04-08 19:41:12  
Shichishito said: »
Afania said: »
I dont really care much about automating or not in a 17 year old video game. If I do well in this game, Im not getting a promotion, nor recognization from my parents.

i see this argument thrown in quite a lot.
chess is hundreds of years old and i'm pretty sure most chess players would still be pretty pissed if you turn on DeepMind or AlphaZero mid match.

Kinda poor analogy. Chess is a 1v1 mental game between two people. For the most part, FFXI is a cooperative team game.
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By Sidiov 2019-04-08 19:44:23  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Kinda poor analogy. Chess is a 1v1 mental game between two people. For the most part, FFXI is a cooperative team game.
This. I view it like you are playing a coop game with your autistic cousin and you have to let him play whatever he wants and score it however he wants. FFXI (Asura) is just 10,000 autistic cousins.
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By Foxfire 2019-04-08 20:17:19  
play however the *** you want, with people willing to put up with you

that's all it boils down to at the end of the day
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By Shichishito 2019-04-08 20:29:58  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Kinda poor analogy.

you could insert any old game in the analogy above and the point would still stand. the point wasn't chess = FFXI, it was cheating doesn't all of a sudden become valid just because a lot of time passed.

its easy to pick apart analogies if you argue past the point.

Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
For the most part, FFXI is a cooperative team game.

just because FFXI has piss poor PvP doesn't mean there is no competition. just look how serious people are about achievments points, max damage/new REMA screen shots or the prime example - scoreboared results.

people came up with a lot of ways to make it a e-peen comparison contest.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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user: Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-08 20:44:40  
That's not competition that's retardation.

Competitive in the same way Special Olympics are competitive.
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By Shichishito 2019-04-08 21:37:30  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
That's not competition that's retardation.

Competitive in the same way Special Olympics are competitive.

now thats a poor analogy, i think you owe special olympians a apology!
 Asura.Chaostaru
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-08 21:40:43  
parsing has its uses. its a godsend addon imo.
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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user: duo1666
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-09 08:49:58  
Torzak said: »
The automation that peeves me:

CPing/Exping while asleep, at work, at the bar, or otherwise not at your computer for hours at a time.

#1) You can't respond to tells for a respect or a courtesy message/goal/objective/request/anything.

#2) It's often times blatantly obvious that you're botting because the observable behavior of your toons is robotic/consistent.

#3) The bots are often so dumb they attack CFH'd targets like Beist and proceed to get themselves killed trying. It's actually proven to be a fun way to test who is botting in escha - you get Beist to pop and then CFH it and sleep it and see which dumb dumb attacks it and gets themselves killed. Some of the bots have been improved and will no longer fight Beist haha. Also, bots can often attack what would be to a real player an obviously slept target near an actual CP party - it's slept and in place for a next kill. At that point, the bot is harassing the legit party. Also, a lot of times you can take a bot for a walk... far far away... it's amusing.

#4) After a whole hour of me holding every mob in a botted area (24+ mobs) far and away from the bot's scripted area with something like RDM with an OP phalanx set, you then have a friend in the botted area watching the bots run back and forth like they are on crack or something and you then send them a tell like, "how's the CP?" and then they jump on 20mins *after* you sent the tell crying a river of *your* "harassment" because of holding mobs and how they are going to call a GM on you. Yes, please do. You're clearly going through trees and through logs or other terrain obstacles and running faster than 18% movement speed while wearing ZERO movement speed gear. Not only that, but you didn't even know that the mobs were all being held in another location for the last hour and possibly wouldn't have known if we didn't send a tell asking how the CP was. That's how obvious and ridiculous some of these bot sessions are... and how ridiculous some of the people behind these bots can be, that they'd threaten to call a GM on me for holding some targets away from them while they were clearly not just botting, but speed hacking and going through terrain that they shouldn't be able to go through.

I'm a firm believer that, while AFK, your toon's progression should be limited to bazaar/AH sales and a few misc other timing considerations that are just simply part of the game. Your toon shouldn't be botting the AH, crafting while botting the AH, killing stuff, etc all while you're away from the computer for *hours*.

I personally don't really care if you use something like react or gearswap, or an automated remedy for paralyze or automated echo drop for silence. I do care if you're position hacking your dead corpse to a safe location - that's ridiculous.

Honestly, there's probably a bunch of stuff that's gray area for a lot of people and they just accept it or deal with it and there's other things that some people can't accept or don't want to deal with. I think most legit players would agree that it sucks going to a camp for CP only to find that it's being monopolized by people who aren't even sitting at their computer.

For me, I wish SE would start deleveling BLATANT CP/EXP/ROE quest botters or cheaters to level 1. Doesn't really hurt their bottom line for subscriptions, it allows the player to learn a lesson and still be able to play the game, and makes it obvious that that behavior isn't going to be tolerated. Repeat offenders can have every job deleveled to 1 for all I care. And if they can't learn their lesson still, reset all their magic/combat skills, too.

I mean, the reason jp botting exists is because of how mind numbingly grindy it is.
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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user: duo1666
Posts: 1006
By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-09 09:09:42  
Shichishito said: »
Afania said: »
I dont really care much about automating or not in a 17 year old video game. If I do well in this game, Im not getting a promotion, nor recognization from my parents.

i see this argument thrown in quite a lot.
chess is hundreds of years old and i'm pretty sure most chess players would still be pretty pissed if you turn on DeepMind or AlphaZero mid match.

Major chess tournaments both players actually use AI to play against to see what moves the opponent is likely to use. So i doubt anyone would be angry at something thats literally allowed.
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By eliroo 2019-04-09 10:23:57  
Asura.Chaostaru said: »
parsing has its uses. its a godsend addon imo.


It is alright. This game is a bit memey when it comes to parse. I don't think it has the same effect that it is does on, say FFXIV, where gear variance is less severe and people can deal around the same amount of DPS.

That being said it allows you to see who is severely under performing which is great for offering helping.
 Cerberus.Tacothecat
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By Cerberus.Tacothecat 2019-04-09 10:35:39  
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Major chess tournaments both players actually use AI to play against to see what moves the opponent is likely to use. So i doubt anyone would be angry at something thats literally allowed.

What tournaments are you going to? Every Chess tournament I have been to banned the use of analyzers to the point of getting caught means DQ.

Unless you are talking about people not playing, but even that is questionable as there was one guy that got caught with someone else using an analyzer and was using radio receiver to hear the best moves from someone in the crowd.

I have even been to some tournaments where they do not allow electronic devices of any kind in the building.
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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user: duo1666
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-09 12:24:18  
Cerberus.Tacothecat said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Major chess tournaments both players actually use AI to play against to see what moves the opponent is likely to use. So i doubt anyone would be angry at something thats literally allowed.

What tournaments are you going to? Every Chess tournament I have been to banned the use of analyzers to the point of getting caught means DQ.

Unless you are talking about people not playing, but even that is questionable as there was one guy that got caught with someone else using an analyzer and was using radio receiver to hear the best moves from someone in the crowd.

I have even been to some tournaments where they do not allow electronic devices of any kind in the building.

Major world chess tournaments allow the use of AI. Its not even "allow the use", its pretty much mandatory.
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