String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*

Talking on PUP without feeding the trolls- biggest strengths of puppetmaster tanking for content is a) need fewer people b) the consistency. PUP/pet setups in general just need pet jobs with COR and GEO. Any incidental heals the geomancer can cover. And since the automaton doesn't care about status effects outside of Doom, you are essentially guaranteed to win, you don't get screwed by a bad roll on magic evasion or any other RNG. There are fights with annoying mechanics where I pretty much always do them with pets because the loss of kill speed is offset by the safety/consistency. It's somewhat similar to doing Subtle Blow setups, except you sacrifice more in killspeed versus using monks, but can do them at range and with fewer players and the gear investment is far lower.

In general as far as the meta, there's rarely if ever an optimal time to use anything but heavy DDs (MNK/WAR/DRG/DRK/SAM), SMN for aeonics/Ambuscade, core support (GEO/COR/BRD), rune fencer, and white mage. RNG/COR/RDM with magical WS setup for Dyna-D. This is boring, it excludes most jobs in the game. At this point we have everything on farm, it's fun to play around with the content. This game sees a trickle of content and, speaking for myself, I love to vary up how I do things.

To me, basically that. NIN and WAR are at best situational as tanks, and more typically not even glanced at for the role. Even as presented (particularly WAR), it's DD-in-hybrid-gear. Most of them can do that, with various pros and cons, given sufficient support...which NIN and WAR would certainly need to work in the role.

PUP is the other side of that coin. It can deploy a brick wall requiring little or no support, which might suit the group's strategy better.

It wouldn't be worth mentioning alongside RUN or PLD for general tanking, but for niche setups or making use of what jobs people have available... it's an odd omission (especially given how much Rua's own PUP video highlighted it).

I general the optimal setup for Dynamis is BLUs as DDs, not RNG and CORs that people promote so much. You could literally run and aggro as much statues with all the mobs as tank can survive, sleep them, apply malaise and annihilate them in 2 seconds with 3 AoE spells from BLU's. Can do Wave 1 and wave 2 like that and then switch to melee for wave 3.

Oh and no, you dont need to switch from nuke to melee spells set mid run. All you need is Tenebral crush and Spectral Flow, rest can be set to melee traits.

Not to de-rail, but as a PUP noob can I ask dumb questions about how the job works?

How do maneuver work?
If I have Fire attachment that grants Provoke and I use Fire maneuver the puppet will use Provoke? There was one that made Light maneuvers grant Regen, is that used? What if I want it to cast Flash? Is that specific to the Valor Edge Head?

Do the higher level animators (I only have the lvl1 basic animator currently) grant the puppet a greater move pool and ai?

Don't put words in my mouth, I never say that.

When did I said "optimal or don't do content"? I flat out said I don't mind someone bringing PUP as DD in Dyna D alliance.

I don't know what's qualified as "boring existence", maybe it's someone who refuse to read and throw out personal attack against another internet user just because they said dirge isn't optimal buff for melee?

You guys can't even have a rational discussion about jobs, pathetic.

The amount people who flat out refuse read is just ridiculous.

Rua asked opinion on "tank" role, thus I was discussing "tank" only. I never said people should never play PUP as lowman or solo job ever, nor I ever say "sub optimal or don't do content". I only said as a "tank" it's lacking. Please Stop putting words in my mouth.

Most of the DDs are interchangeable, the "meta" didn't exclude light DD. You can change war drk Sam mnk into Blu thf DNC and results will be the same.

So bringing up "meta only isn't fun" is completely missing my point. Since I was discussing tank, not meta.

PUPs disadvantage in Dyna D as a tank isn't just the lack of gambit. Its a content that requires heavy AoE hate, crowd control, hate reset (Dyna sandy), fast pulls. Most of the AoE tanking needs AoE enmity generation FAST unless you setup assist(which we don't).

And yes, I've seen people bring PUP to Dyna. But I don't see the advantage of doing that unless you are sacking.

How are going to replace a tank that really excel at AoE tanking AND have gambit with another tank that can't?

This isn't like DD, that the difference between them is just some parse numbers. Honestly the DD can be anything because I don't care. But that isn't the case for tank jobs.

If you want to play PUP, then play PUP. I never said you can't bring it for Lowman or solo, or sacking wave 3. I only said it's not interchangeable with other tanks unlike DD slot. So far none of you disagree with that. You guys just repeatly brought up "Lowman" argument which wasn't even part of the discussion.

Appearantly someone is even more "meta centric" than I am, lol. I haven't care about which DD to bring for a very long time, and I've brought not meta jobs like dancer to dynamis alliance too. Kinda silly to call this "meta only"

I mean, if you bring an alliance of Cor RNG to Dyna D, or SMN in aeonic, then you have no right to call others "meta only". COR RNG alliance in Dyna is one of the most exclusive setup in recent years, so does SMN setup. And someone who clearly abuses it sits here giving lecture about "meta isn't fun", lol.

I pretty much tried to stem this whole debate before it even happened right after the topic came up, but alas it never stops.

Thought I covered every angle in few enough words tbh

God damn, I don't look at the PUP thread for a bit and it suddenly gets brigaded by a bunch of trolls or opinonated people who probably haven't even touched PUP.

But first, to answer the question above:


JA attachments like Strobe (Provoke; Fire), Flashbulb (Flash; Light), Shock Absorber (Stoneskin; Earth) and so forth all work completely separate from the head/body setup of the Automaton. All they need is to be equipped and you need to have at least one Maneuver of the correct element active to make it possible for the Automaton to trigger the effect. This means even a full Stormwaker maton with a Fire Maneuver could Provoke monsters.

Additional maneuvers of the matching element usually (but not always) enhance the effect of the JA or of the attachment's passive bonus.


Type I animators behave the same way as classic/starter animators, making the Automaton follow their head's default AI. VE will run into melee range while Sharpshot/Mage heads will stay at whatever distance they were deployed at.

Type II animators will force the Automaton to always try to move so it stays at least a 15' distance from the target it was deployed on. However, this behavior will also break the melee AI of the Valoredge head, causing it to no longer use WSs or JAs. Always make sure to swap to a Type 1 before Activating a VE maton (or just don't use Type II at all, it's rarely necessary)

Other than that: higher animators generally just grant the Automaton additional stats and these days also ilevels. Some older Animators also gave stats to the Master, but the current P generation doesn't.

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As for the current topic at hand: while PUP is my absolute main, I also play a BiS RUN so I have experience from both sides. I'll just try to address and clarify all the things mentioned.

First of: anybody who strictly uses DD RUN or DD tanks to clear all content at maximumem speed is, frankly, sitting comfortably in an ivory tower. Not all players have the privilege of playing with multi-REMA friends/mules/bots that allow them to superbuff themselves to trivialize content. For all other players jobs like PUP are very much real tanks.

That said, PLD and RUN are the de facto tanks of the game no matter the content. This is indisputable.

Personally, I don't consider PUP a "true" tank because that's just a single aspect of the many things in the job's kit (and the other aspects are just underrated). However, due to its mechanics and frequent use in lots of content it almost definitely is more of an actual tank than WAR or the like.

Similarly, BLU is definitely capable of fulfilling a proper tank role due to its kit, but nobody actually bothers with it because it takes too much effort. Annoying to gear unlike PUP, takes more effort to play than RUN&PLD and isn't as faceroll/efficient as omgwtfbbq DPS from DD tanks.
NIN has a decent kit, but due to the lack of proper updates it has a hard time with currently available content and the meta in general. Considering SE caved to the old NIN tank meta and added Yonin/Nagi/Fudo Masamune over the years the job definitely deserves to stand alongside PLD and RUN as one of the game's central tanks.

On the other hand, holding hate purely via DPS typically falls apart in any content that isn't zergable. WAR, DRK and some other jobs are capable of tanking in the current meta only because our current/past content is mostly ridiculously easy and our gear just keeps improving as SE releases more and more of it without hard content to match. MNK is kinda in the same boat, but also not because of their high HP and ability to limit TP moves. But they aren't suitable to tank all content, either.

Fact is, generally nobody uses DDs as their main tanks when pushing new and difficult content, although MNK had some exceptions. For example, RUN, PLD and PUP were all used for the first Wave 3 clears after release, albeit for different purposes. Obviously once things are on farm this often changes, but I still see Hybrid DDs get destroyed by Volte Commanders or Wave 2 and 3 mega bosses.
50% DT and MEVA as your only (major) mitigation tools will only take you so far. These days it's basically on par with what RUN already uses most of the time anyway, so it's natural that higher DPS jobs would eventually take over to clear content even faster. But whenever SE releases new content that can't simply be zerged and actually has dangerous mechanics the tank meta reverts to traditional setups pretty quickly.

Furthermore, tanking content like WoC, Omen or Ambu bosses that jobs like RDM or BLU have sometimes already solo'd doesn't make certain jobs actual tanks. It just means that mechanics have become so easily ignored or dealt with that all you need to hold hate is a good Hybrid set with a solid backline. WAR was only recently put into the fortunate position to have gotten all the ideal new gear to build the perfect Hybrid set. This makes it an extremely useful and efficient DD tank, but as soon as it loses its ability to keep hate by dealing damage this entire setup falls apart. Even DRK has better hate tools when damage is not an option.

However, none of these jobs can perform or last very long if they lose all of their buffs or if the healer happens to get killed/CC'd. PLD, RUN, PUP and BLU actually have some very solid staying power even while the backline has to recover and can still retain enmity during that time.


I've read about SCH beating Lilith on D or VD or so, but unless there's actual proof of a RUN doing it I very much doubt it. Trusts die super quickly on higher difficulties once Valiance/OfA run out and RUN has no notable sustain once Trusts are dead. Positioning Trusts is also a huge pain in the *** as they love to run into fetters.

If it was done solely thanks to the Trust Campaign then it sort of gets a pass because it's still impressive, but at that point RUN probably isn't the only job capable of that.


Your opinion on Dirge is extremely narrow-minded. Sure, you lose a song slot to it, but it also means DDs won't pull hate and take significantly longer to reach the hate cap. This means they don't have to ride their Hybrid sets the entire time because the boss keeps spinning around constantly.

So whatever you gain switching from your Hybrid to regular TP set mostly makes up for the lost song and you are generally much safer. Even if you can't afford to drop your Hybrid set you're still far less likely to get countered/killed. A dead DD deals no damage.

A COR also shouldn't need double Madrigal these days thanks to Malignance and Distract III--mine certainly doesn't. Especially not for zergs like Wave 3 mega boss.

If you're going to argue that Malignance is worse TP gain than lower Acc multiattack/STP gear then you need to reevaluate how you approach battles because MEVA is far more valuable than slightly faster TP.

I'll have to try BLU in Dyna, that sounds fun. I've revisited the job on my alt, since I already have Tizona. We just have a ton of DP CORs and RNGs, with comparatively few endgame-geared blue mages, since the job has largely been left off of gear and updates in the past four years.

@Aerix

My comment about dirge is ambu VD, not Dyna. In Dyna it's magical WS so hate isn't an issue without dirge.

The acc is mostly for WS set, since WS set actually has lower acc than TP set.

Distract III is only available if RDM is in pt. Which is pretty rare for ambuscade, so that wouldn't be an option.

I just don't see the point of using dirge nor change the setup to accomodate PUP tank if things already worked well. I really rarely pull hate in ambuscade. So the suggestion of changing one song to dirge so PUP can be a tank is just ridiculous. Why can't they come as DD and let RUN tank instead?

Overall I think PUP as a tank is overrated and tank certainly isn't the only role it should be doing. When people point out how PUP is lacking as a tank many PUP players initial response was "they said PUP is useless", then they proceed to make argument about Lowman or solo. I just don't get it. Saying PUP being lacking as a tank isn't the same as saying the job is useless. Its just the nature of hybrid job: it will never be as good as specialists for that aspect.

If PUP isn't ideal as a tank in that specific situation just come DD PUP...

Dirge isn't used for Leaden CORs nor because of PUP tanks. It's used even with PLD&RUN and for all the heavy DD in your party who can't use magical WSs but still need COR buffs.

Frankly, the only situation where Dirge with a PUP tank would be relevant is with COR and RNG shooting. But even then RNG already has Anni/Coronach. In a full zerg setup where Dirge is useful you shouldn't be using a PUP tank. It isn't meant for those kinds of setups.

Also, nobody said anything about Ambu until now and it isn't considered high-level content either. And Dirge or double Madrigal are generally not necessary for Ambu to begin with. If your SB has Acc issues then swap in more Acc. If you are changing the song setup solely because your SB COR needs more Acc then you're gimping all other DDs (except Calad DRK). SB COR is good, but not that good to warrant it.

The guy that I replied to clearly said "use dirge to accomodate PUP tank", lol.

If I swap in acc for WS then I lose WS dmg. I don't see the point if attack is capped either.

Other DD benefits from madrigals as much as Cor. KC RNG, TP bonus offhand BRD etc. Double madrigal IS the optimal DD buff in ambuscade because it allows people push for more offensive stats in their sets. LoLDirge is not.

You guys are crazy. Why are you telling people to use buffs that generates less party DPS? It makes no sense at all. Double madrigals or bust.

If you want to play PUP but can't hold hate, the solution is play melee DD PUP, not "use dirge"...

If WAR DRK wants dirge in dynamis, use pianissimo on them and leave leaden cor out of lolDirge.

Is that even viable? Wouldnt BRD have like barely 1000 acc with non ilvl weapon even with really high accuracy gear? That seems too low even with 2 madrigals. It probably wouldnt be even better damage vs Carn/Tauret.


Dirge is used only on bosses, where you have SV honor and madrigal. Dirge is used as 5th song (assuming it's used at all). 2nd madrigal is never used.

I'm not that other person. And it's entirely possible to use Dirge to accomodate PUP if one wants to. It just generally isn't done that way even with PUP tanks because buffed DDs necessitate all the backline that a PUP tank would let you skip.


Why do people always assume you are easily Attack-capped without Minuets, 1hrs or Naegling. PDL is a thing and I almost guarantee you people aren't capping most of the time if you drop flat Attack buffs like Minuets that synergize heavily with Chaos Roll/Indi-Fury. Especially if you are playing with jobs that don't have Berserk or LR.


Again, Dirge is rarely used in Ambu to begin with (because most fights end before people cap hate). I don't know why you are arguing this when nobody made that claim from what I've seen.

And if you have KC RNG in your party then that slot clearly isn't being used by a heavy DD. So obviously you would use songs that fit your party setup the most. But if you're giving a Trishula DRG double Madrigal you're wasting a song just as much as if you used Dirge when hate is fine.

Situational ***is situational. But Dirge is crazy good in the right situations.

For what it's worth Dirge IS really good, but it also only works for about 30 seconds, without everyone /drg and/or constant full enmity reset aoes.

The more concessions you make, the more it's a losing argument.

"it works" yeah, it works, so does 6 whm/nin but you don't hear anyone like yeah, let's do that!

From my experience in Dyna Dirge let DDs typically go full ham even without /DRG for much longer than 30s--for example the entirety of W3 bosses. SV Dirge halves all your Enmity generation, but even regular Dirge is like -32 Enmity that is a multiplier to everything.

I generally use armor break+ CC chaos+ light shot Dia+fury+frailty. THAT isn't capping in ambu?

I am pretty sure it's capped in most ambu, based on WS AVG on parse

I didn't say dirge is completely useless, I only said there's no point changing 1 song to dirge just because another guy wants to tank on PUP.

If DRG wants attack song they can get one from pianissimo. But stop telling other people "swap to acc set!" That's not solving the problem.

This. Dirge is used ONLY on bosses in dynamis and then its always SVoiced. That pretty much caps you at -50 enmity. Which means you make 50% less from all actions. Typical DD jobs get hate on Wave 3 boss at like 40-20% HP left. With Dirge they will usually never cap hate and with Dirge and /drg they will for sure never cap hate.

Does a valoredge tank those mobs though? You drop one 50k (physical) ws, call it 2 with dirge and valoredge will never tank that mob again. (30 seconds was being generous in the context of the conversation)

Remember to keep it in the context of PUP tanking.

There are plenty of Ambu months with mechanics that prevent you from fulltiming Fury or Armor Breaking every mob (assuming the RUN does it).

Also not sure why you would CC Chaos over Sam roll when excess TP makes a massive difference for a lot of WSs.


In the same vein you might as well just Pianissimo a Madrigal on the COR. RUN, R15 Carn BRD, BLU, RDM and heavy DDs generally don't need that second Madrigal.

If you insist then sure. I'd still do other options for pdif before considering swapping out madrigals.

Pretty sure CC chaos has bigger DPS improvement than Sam unless it's capped...at least spreadsheet said so last time I checked.

Also you can double CC with random deal anyways. So half the time even sam gets CC.

You are the one who suggested full time Lilith armor set, that devalues Sam roll anyways lol. What's the point to waste precious JA on a stat that gets devalued?

If you want to discuss roll potency choices I can show you spreadsheet number in PM. This is PUP forum not COR.

You assume someone will armor break everything, which means you always take WAR or SAM (which is very limiting), or force someone to lose TP/AM by switching to inferior weapon. That might not be a problem if you have 1-3 enemies to kill, but most VD ambuscades has like 5+. Switching that many times to staff, gaxe or gkatana will be totally pain in the ***.

CC chaos is generally inferior to CC Samurai, so you lose here.

Fury and Frailty is not always possible, because you might need some more defensive approach for consistency. Also you always need GEO which is also limiting. There are also ambuscades where you cant use bubbles because of mechanics.

You generally create a scenario where attack is obviously capped and say 2nd madrigal is only option for DPS because what else, but there are other scenarios outside of your limiting setup.

Yes, exactly. So please stop double and triple posting. Just edit your posts.


Last time I checked COR wasn't the only job in a party that benefits from COR rolls. DRK, BLU and WAR don't need CC Chaos at all, for example. Any job with /WAR or /DRK probably doesn't either unless the fights drag on.

Also Grape Daifuku is amazing new Acc/Atk hybrid food that most Attack-starved DDs should make use of.

I had something like 1020 in WS set at one point because all my DM augment isn't giving me any acc. With madrigals X2 I can get to 1500+ if I remember correctly.

So 1000 acc is probably okay if you use some minor acc swaps.

Cento offhand is laughably easy to pull off on BRD for like all content pretty much. I don't use double madrigals for anything, BRD has access to really high acc through gear. Only place this becomes a problem is in wave 3 and some VD ambu months. Don't give a ***about PUP just wanted to put that out there since BRD was mentioned lol.

Math Proof? Unless something serious changed I don't recall CC sam beats CC chaos on spreadsheet.

WS gets +100 accuracy on first hit, which is only hit that matter for SB. 1000 acc in TP set would mean floored accuracy even with 2 madrigals.