The pet jobs have always been outsiders
They just don't fit the type of game 11 is. I don't know how well pet jobs work in other games, but it's clear they don't fit in anywhere in 11.
If buffs didn't exist, or didn't stack, or the pets got the same stats the player got + the buffs so it was just a mini second player, it could've worked out. They chose a different path.
Oil and water.
Dev Tracker - Discussion
Dev Tracker - Discussion
IDK about all this "PUP is useless" talk...we use PUP in Ongo KI#2 (for 3 KI strat) and it's crucial for our Ngai strat. PUP is also quite nice for a pet Odin HTBF strat which, while not ideal, is pretty decent. PUP can serve as a tank for a bunch of old content (Omen, Vagary, Dynamis [D] to a certain extent).
I don't play the job, it's not for me, but it's nowhere near useless. It can Overdrive a bunch of content, including a bunch of V0 (maybe V5?) Ody bosses. It can be used to hold adds on like...a shitload of Ody bosses.
It doesn't need any adjusting, IMO. Perfectly fine, albeit niche, job.
IDK, kinda feels like people want their favorite job to be invited to everything, but that's not how metas work. You either have 6 slots that can be filled by any job (See: FFXIV) because all the healers are the same, all the tanks are the same, all the buffers are the same, and all the DDs are the same, or you have a system where there's differentiation between the jobs which makes each more ideal for different strategies, fights, and setups.
I very much prefer the way it is now, and I think "make my job more competitive with other jobs" is a weird take. I'm not saying they couldn't do some re-balancing or buffing of certain jobs, but I really don't think it's ever going to rise to the level of making them competitive, because that would defeat the baransu.
I don't play the job, it's not for me, but it's nowhere near useless. It can Overdrive a bunch of content, including a bunch of V0 (maybe V5?) Ody bosses. It can be used to hold adds on like...a shitload of Ody bosses.
It doesn't need any adjusting, IMO. Perfectly fine, albeit niche, job.
IDK, kinda feels like people want their favorite job to be invited to everything, but that's not how metas work. You either have 6 slots that can be filled by any job (See: FFXIV) because all the healers are the same, all the tanks are the same, all the buffers are the same, and all the DDs are the same, or you have a system where there's differentiation between the jobs which makes each more ideal for different strategies, fights, and setups.
I very much prefer the way it is now, and I think "make my job more competitive with other jobs" is a weird take. I'm not saying they couldn't do some re-balancing or buffing of certain jobs, but I really don't think it's ever going to rise to the level of making them competitive, because that would defeat the baransu.
[+]
You could fix SMN by just giving the elementals the AI and abilities of trusts. Light Elemental = Ygnas. Etc.
Fixed and easy.
Fixed and easy.
If you could charm v25 adds from T3 and it would deny the boss regen for a couple minutes, BST would be what it used to be.
Otherwise I'm really ok if they delete charm and tame, since they don't need to be used for leveling anymore because of trusts and if they can't be used against anything serious content wise then clear up the JA slots and replace them with something good.
PUP finds plenty of use for talented puppetmasters. The only real problem they have for tanking is the gear is old and Path D nyame shows you exactly what you don't have that you really should have after they made +3 versions of AF, Relic, and Empy.
Otherwise I'm really ok if they delete charm and tame, since they don't need to be used for leveling anymore because of trusts and if they can't be used against anything serious content wise then clear up the JA slots and replace them with something good.
PUP finds plenty of use for talented puppetmasters. The only real problem they have for tanking is the gear is old and Path D nyame shows you exactly what you don't have that you really should have after they made +3 versions of AF, Relic, and Empy.
[+]
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
IDK about all this "PUP is useless" talk...we use PUP in Ongo KI#2 (for 3 KI strat) and it's crucial for our Ngai strat. PUP is also quite nice for a pet Odin HTBF strat which, while not ideal, is pretty decent. PUP can serve as a tank for a bunch of old content (Omen, Vagary, Dynamis [D] to a certain extent).
I don't play the job, it's not for me, but it's nowhere near useless. It can Overdrive a bunch of content, including a bunch of V0 (maybe V5?) Ody bosses. It can be used to hold adds on like...a shitload of Ody bosses.
It doesn't need any adjusting, IMO. Perfectly fine, albeit niche, job.
IDK, kinda feels like people want their favorite job to be invited to everything, but that's not how metas work. You either have 6 slots that can be filled by any job (See: FFXIV) because all the healers are the same, all the tanks are the same, all the buffers are the same, and all the DDs are the same, or you have a system where there's differentiation between the jobs which makes each more ideal for different strategies, fights, and setups.
I very much prefer the way it is now, and I think "make my job more competitive with other jobs" is a weird take. I'm not saying they couldn't do some re-balancing or buffing of certain jobs, but I really don't think it's ever going to rise to the level of making them competitive, because that would defeat the baransu.
I don't play the job, it's not for me, but it's nowhere near useless. It can Overdrive a bunch of content, including a bunch of V0 (maybe V5?) Ody bosses. It can be used to hold adds on like...a shitload of Ody bosses.
It doesn't need any adjusting, IMO. Perfectly fine, albeit niche, job.
IDK, kinda feels like people want their favorite job to be invited to everything, but that's not how metas work. You either have 6 slots that can be filled by any job (See: FFXIV) because all the healers are the same, all the tanks are the same, all the buffers are the same, and all the DDs are the same, or you have a system where there's differentiation between the jobs which makes each more ideal for different strategies, fights, and setups.
I very much prefer the way it is now, and I think "make my job more competitive with other jobs" is a weird take. I'm not saying they couldn't do some re-balancing or buffing of certain jobs, but I really don't think it's ever going to rise to the level of making them competitive, because that would defeat the baransu.
It's mostly what I said above though. About how the Auto most of the time is useless outside of very rare occasions. It should never feel that way as it is designed as a pet job.
Had my fingers crossed on BST for V20/25 ADDS
Went in like a boss thinking watch this
Going to charm those little *** ADDS
><
Went in like a boss thinking watch this
Going to charm those little *** ADDS
><
IMO a beastsmaster without a usable charm is not really a master of beasts.
Glorified pokemon trainer, maybe.
Glorified pokemon trainer, maybe.
[+]
PUP has been a trainwreck since inception. One I love, but a disaster nonetheless. Stamos is right, so much of the job is just broken. Tank automaton is almost too good for single target fights, but every other frame setup has severe issues in party play.
It's not easy to find a good balance for pet jobs because they can do so much different stuff on an average level but quickly fall behind to role specialists. With the large majority of everything being 6 man content, there is simply less room to give them a slot over other jobs. Somebody has to be picked last, and it will usually be pet jobs with rare exceptions.
It's not easy to find a good balance for pet jobs because they can do so much different stuff on an average level but quickly fall behind to role specialists. With the large majority of everything being 6 man content, there is simply less room to give them a slot over other jobs. Somebody has to be picked last, and it will usually be pet jobs with rare exceptions.
[+]
They should supercharge Charm and totally rework its mechanics to give BST more options and make it a bit more attractive.
Make it a 10 minute JA that can be paired with Familiar to increase its land rate to charm even harder monsters. Instead of its current version, BSTs can now charm previously immune monsters. Add a new job ability to work exclusively for this new pet, as a stance move alternating with call beast/bestial loyalty (the moment you use this move, CB/BL goes on timer). Since the monster will be significantly stronger than jug pets, the trade-off is you cannot control it's abilities with Ready moves, but instead you can only use them with Sic and they behave on their own. Every time you charm a new monster you lose access to the older one. It can be like your super pet in emergency situations or a really strong addition to unique setups. If these new pets have any abilities that buff themselves, allow it to also affect the master and rest of the party.
As a way to aid players in finding monsters that can now be charmed with the newer Charm, enhance gauge/tame etc so that you get appropriate reads (similar to check rankings). That way players won't be wasting charms finding monsters that simply are still immune. Obviously limit it away from super strong Notorious Monsters, but add interesting options like Yztarg, Vampires, Soulflayers, Wyrms/Behemoths/UNM bosses, even some Besieged bosses etc. Once the pet dies, it's gone for good until you charm another pet (but make reward still work on them).
Imagine pulling up to Sortie with a variant of Gulool Ja Ja. That would be freaking epic.
Make it a 10 minute JA that can be paired with Familiar to increase its land rate to charm even harder monsters. Instead of its current version, BSTs can now charm previously immune monsters. Add a new job ability to work exclusively for this new pet, as a stance move alternating with call beast/bestial loyalty (the moment you use this move, CB/BL goes on timer). Since the monster will be significantly stronger than jug pets, the trade-off is you cannot control it's abilities with Ready moves, but instead you can only use them with Sic and they behave on their own. Every time you charm a new monster you lose access to the older one. It can be like your super pet in emergency situations or a really strong addition to unique setups. If these new pets have any abilities that buff themselves, allow it to also affect the master and rest of the party.
As a way to aid players in finding monsters that can now be charmed with the newer Charm, enhance gauge/tame etc so that you get appropriate reads (similar to check rankings). That way players won't be wasting charms finding monsters that simply are still immune. Obviously limit it away from super strong Notorious Monsters, but add interesting options like Yztarg, Vampires, Soulflayers, Wyrms/Behemoths/UNM bosses, even some Besieged bosses etc. Once the pet dies, it's gone for good until you charm another pet (but make reward still work on them).
Imagine pulling up to Sortie with a variant of Gulool Ja Ja. That would be freaking epic.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I very much prefer the way it is now, and I think "make my job more competitive with other jobs" is a weird take. I'm not saying they couldn't do some re-balancing or buffing of certain jobs, but I really don't think it's ever going to rise to the level of making them competitive, because that would defeat the baransu.
I think it's less that all jobs should be equal in meta and more that they could, with some adjustment and balancing, be more relevant and usable in content they are borderline useless in now. That and some systems (e.g. jugs for BST) are just dumb in this era.
I think it's possible to make them at least playable and usable in more places with some minor tweaks that doesn't offset or damage relevance of other jobs. I don't think making Blade: Ten better, adjusting the jug system, lowering reuse timers of BST jug skills, or making the Auto's magic damage better will fundamentally alter balance enough to where other jobs get pushed out, but it could make them more usable in content and allow for more diverse strats. Imagine a scenario where NIN could participate vs Mboze and (potentially) eat Timberrr with Migawari, PUP could participate in multiple KI Ongo attempts, BST could take advantage of the ability to impose Amnesia on mobs while buffing the party, and so on. It seems these jobs are so close to being able to participate they just need small changes to get there. There's a huge gap between "every job can do every thing" and improving balance where it opens up new strats that aren't necessarily better or worse, just different with tradeoffs and benefits.
I think it's a shame that this game has such a dynamic and interesting set of jobs and abilities, but some of the most interesting ones are sidelined, yet still so close to being more usable.
I will concede that some of these jobs are sidelined by the community. Most groups won't even entertain the idea of trying something different that isn't in a guide somewhere. The number of times something is suggested that isn't in a guide, only to for it to get shot down because "that won't work", then we find out someone did that very thing and it worked is...way too high.
[+]
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Since the monster will be significantly stronger than jug pets, the trade-off is you cannot control it's abilities with Ready moves, but instead you can only use them with Sic and they behave on their own.
Cool idea minus the lack of control, BST with only Sic is really not fun. I know you want a drawback for the power, but not that!
Gotta tone it a notch otherwise everything turns into 6 BST using the same ultra pets and moves over and over again without any penalty.
[+]
Gotta tone it a notch or everything becomes (Tank/DD),DD,BRD,GEO,COR,WHM without penalty.
Why can’t pet strats be on par with melee or mage strats for sortie for example?
Why can’t pet strats be on par with melee or mage strats for sortie for example?
[+]
Wasn't there some crazy group out there running pet jobs for 8 boss before 9 boss became more accessible to the general population?
I recall someone bringing summoner for Garuda movespeed. Beastmaster oozing bosses (other than A/E?) into Calamity or Savage spam seems like it'd be viable. Killer Instinct maybe? I dont know if therse an anti aquan pet though, I'm quit pet ignorant.
On par I think would be nice, its just that there will always be a 'meta' of whatever preforms best or most consistently, and even if something is just behind said meta, it'll still be used a small fraction of the time for the sake of convenience.
I recall someone bringing summoner for Garuda movespeed. Beastmaster oozing bosses (other than A/E?) into Calamity or Savage spam seems like it'd be viable. Killer Instinct maybe? I dont know if therse an anti aquan pet though, I'm quit pet ignorant.
On par I think would be nice, its just that there will always be a 'meta' of whatever preforms best or most consistently, and even if something is just behind said meta, it'll still be used a small fraction of the time for the sake of convenience.
If pets were on par with melee or mage, every party would be 6 bsts/pups (4 + geo cor etc)
Pups and bsts can't have teh1337deeps cause they can't be killed. That's the trade off they got.
Pups and bsts can't have teh1337deeps cause they can't be killed. That's the trade off they got.
[+]
Asura.Mcdoogle said: »
Gotta tone it a notch or everything becomes (Tank/DD),DD,BRD,GEO,COR,WHM without penalty.
Why can’t pet strats be on par with melee or mage strats for sortie for example?
Why can’t pet strats be on par with melee or mage strats for sortie for example?
Whenever you abuse something, it gets a nerf.
17 BLM 1 Tank - nuke wall
KC DRK SEBW- Enemy now is resistant to Souleater
All rangers - distance penalty/level correction
All BST parties - reduce ready range
SMN AFAC - BP resistance
All DD/Savage Blade groups: WS wall
It's just going to flip the meta back and then the nerf will overcorrect.
[+]
pets being OP again: Tie pet deaths to players, now if your pet dies, so do you
Balance
Balance
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Then you just deus ex or call jug and the pet has no weakness, and it's right back to it. Unlimited times.
The WS wall is the only decently implemented wall, that’s the whole issue.
The prior wall at v25/ sortie basement launch was far too heavy handed and really bottlenecked all content into mage strategies... they really need to thread the needle with their treatments to balance the content well.
I agree that they have neglected the pet aspect of the equation
I agree that they have neglected the pet aspect of the equation
What was the first implementation again?
There was a ten second delay on all WS after the first where the damage was reduced. Didn't matter if it was a different WS. Made Kalunga v25 in 1 KI nearly impossible except with extreme execution and good aura/luck. I remember doing Gigelorum25 with it and it was a pretty harsh DPS check.
[+]
Joined a random ambuscade pick up group before
That was using a unique setup which changed my mind on PUP
Pretty sure it was
COR/COR/GEO/PUP/RDM/RNG
If the PUP lost hate they just did
High Jump / Super Jump
Think the buffs were something like
PUP
Companion's Roll
Drachen Roll
Beast Roll
Puppet Roll
COR/COR/RNG
Chaos Roll
Samurai Roll
Miser's Roll
Courser's Roll
Flurry II
Geo-Wilt + Indi-Fury
That was using a unique setup which changed my mind on PUP
Pretty sure it was
COR/COR/GEO/PUP/RDM/RNG
If the PUP lost hate they just did
High Jump / Super Jump
Think the buffs were something like
PUP
Companion's Roll
Drachen Roll
Beast Roll
Puppet Roll
COR/COR/RNG
Chaos Roll
Samurai Roll
Miser's Roll
Courser's Roll
Flurry II
Geo-Wilt + Indi-Fury
It's not that you can't use them. It's just slower.
Slower sucks, so the slower jobs suck.
When someone says they want to improve it, or make it better. They only care that it's faster.
Slower sucks, so the slower jobs suck.
When someone says they want to improve it, or make it better. They only care that it's faster.
Never any love for THF
</3
Well i'm going THF when the new HTB comes out
Going to get all them drops first
</3
Well i'm going THF when the new HTB comes out
Going to get all them drops first
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I remember doing Gigelorum25 with it and it was a pretty harsh DPS check.
IIRC managing hate was tricky too b/c the MNK would hate cap because it dragged on so long.
I know plenty fought the T3s before they fixed the bug, but did anyone actually win vs a T3 prior to them fixing the WS wall?
random things I'd love to see to balance the game a bit more away from the current cookie cutter meta - of course all of the above would also necessitate new content to play against :)
Naegling - lower the base weapon damage, acc, attack (or combination of all) and cap the number of attack per buffs you can receive. If I could, I would remove it from the game due to how braindead it made the game.
Summoner - all Blood Pact-derived skillchains/magic bursts can now break damage cap. Change Diabolos' Avatar Favor to be Regain instead of Refresh, and add a TP drain to his Bloodpacts. Raise summoning magic skill to A+. Redesign Mana Cede to give the entire party TP instead of just your summon.
Aeonics - Radiance/Umbra skillchains can now break damage cap. Magic bursts on Radiance/Umbra skillchains can now break damage cap.
Phantom Rolls - all rolls apply half their effects to pets. Previously pet-focused rolls apply half their effects to player characters.
Daggers/Katanas - in an effort to boost THF and NIN and a slighter buff to other jobs that use daggers, give these weapon types an inherent +15% critical attack damage buff. This aligns with these weapons being traditionally more assassin-y. I'd love to do this for bows too but Gandiva is already good enough!
Thief - redesign Conspirator to provide a flat and considerable Subtle Blow II buff (call it maybe 20% SBII and +25 accuracy). redesign Assassin's Charge to give a fading critical attack/triple attack buff that lowers over time (similar to Fan Dance for DNC). Add tons and tons of stealable items to mobs.
Ninja - Remove decay from Innin/Yonin. Raise ninjutsu skill to A+. FINALLY MAKE BLADE:HI BASED OFF OF DEX, not AGI!!!
Ranger - Similarly - update Vishnu's Radiance to be based off of AGI, not DEX!!! Make Eagle Eye Shot unmissable and give 3k TP.
Beastmaster - Allow Killer Instinct to be uncapped against NMs. Edit Clousplitter to be based off of STR/CHR and Primal Rend to be based off of STR/CHR. Add BST to receive Skillchain Bonus trait, up to Skillchain Bonus III.
Tandem Strike - give up to tier 3 Tandem Strike trait to SMN and PUP. Give all tiers of the Tandem Strike trait an additional STP bonus if both master and pet are attacking the same mob.
Puppetmaster - This requires way more of a comprehensive redesign than I can really theorize, but a big band-aid could be redesigning the Maneuver/cooldown system to have the automatons operate at full maneuver power much sooner in an encounter.
White Mage - Redesign Sacrosanctity to last for a set amount of time - probably 30 seconds. Remove Full Cure's consumption of all MP and just give it a decently high cost. Raise the cap of all Boost-Stat spells to further carve out a niche and differentiate from SCH.
All Relic Weapons - Rebalance all relic weapons to give a flat +40 accuracy, attack, magic attack bonus. Currently certain weapons get acc and no atk, and others vice versa. This would make them much more situationally useful.
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