Dev Tracker - Discussion

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Dev Tracker - Discussion
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-02 16:54:22  
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
I wasnt even going at it from that angle:
I dont think a new player is going to be able to reliably solo any 119+ Unity NM to be able to get the +1 piece to augment.

Arthro, Voso, Imperator, Joyous Green, Garbage Gel...is a new player soloing these?
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 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-06-02 16:55:26  
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
So let me get this straight:
New players CANNOT DO DOMAIN INVASION, a server wide event that is likely very survivable in a group setting even in sparks gear, but can solo Voso multiple times for an Agony Jerkin+1? I only used Agony Jerkin as an example since it was the piece previously mentioned.

Then he's ok with new players dumping scales to R15 Agony. Then skipping key weapons/armour/abjurations from DI, only to get the 1000 point accessories because they're BiS. This is because Odyssey should trump DI because of the '10,000 of hoops one has to go through' to unlock Escha. Also seems to think it takes months of work to get an abjuration when it's *** 400 points.....4 days of 'hard work'.

Dumb ***right there.
I wasnt even going at it from that angle:
I dont think a new player is going to be able to reliably solo any 119+ Unity NM to be able to get the +1 piece to augment.

Arthro, Voso, Imperator, Joyous Green, Garbage Gel...is a new player soloing these?

You dont even have to survive DI to get the points, participate just enough to get the "You are now participating" (which is literally just be there) message and you get 100 DP a day.

A sparks pup can solo all/most. You can reasonably get a few people together to kill them, especially since there are a few accessories in demand now. And the upgrade items for the NQ to +1 are really cheap. You could +1 a few for as little as 300k.
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-02 16:58:50  
Truly having a silly argument. By the time they reach UNMs they should be accessing both, very easily accessible straight out of the gate. They should be doing both events as much as possible, your argument is moot.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-02 17:09:38  
He's just talking *** stupid now. Actually, 794 posts of stupid and counting. It really is pointless trying to explain simple things to someone so obtuse.
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-06-02 17:10:12  
Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Truly having a silly argument. By the time they reach UNMs they should be accessing both, very easily accessible straight out of the gate. They should be doing both events as much as possible, your argument is moot.

In which domain points are more valuable and needed to purchase 1000 point items first. Its more cost effective getting the intermediary R15 items or the entry DI items than wasting 400 points and 15+mil/whack on abjs
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-06-02 17:16:23  
The most efficient is what ever gets the job done for you, so wasting those points is a better way to go into getting starter gear. Hell the DI armors are better than Sparks gear, outside of DI. ***, you can also make more points later. So, those items, are useful for when you are midgrading your way through UNM/Odyssey.

All the while, a new character is accumulating Sparks and him for buying other stuff. There is a cornucopia of equipment in the game. DI takes 1 fight to cap points now, and all you have to do is talk to an NPC and stand around for less time than it takes to have a smoke. So......

Wtf you arguing efficiency for. It all helps. The cheap point gear stuff can be stretched plenty... Or on alt jobs...

So... Do both, and all as much as possible. No more argument. You don't have to have the last word.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-02 18:05:00  
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
In which domain points are more valuable and needed to purchase 1000 point items first. Its more cost effective getting the intermediary R15 items or the entry DI items than wasting 400 points and 15+mil/whack on abjs

Honest question. Why do you feel that a Thrud Earring should come before let's say, a Shijo, Adhemar Body, and Adhemar Bonnet combination? Both take 1000 points to get. I'll leave out Herculean gear since you need Reisen access to start augments with Oseem.

You are assuming every new player levels THF, which is not the case at all, so Odyssey becomes exponentially harder. You are also assuming that a new player wants to level PUP to solo UCNM, which is really grasping at straws to back your reasoning.

Let's say the new player is indeed a THF and does homework to pick locks in Odyssey and gets an Agony Jerkin +1 from the goblin. Now let's say, over 10 days, this THF accumulates 8 stacks of scales, as well as 1000 Domain Points. You're going to sit there and tell us that he should dump 800 scales into that Agony and buy a Thrud, rather than making 8 million gil, getting a Shijo, Adhemar Body and Head? Then using that 8m, buying the vexed, eschalixers, and having a decent overhead for other pieces of gear?
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-06-02 18:34:09  
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
In which domain points are more valuable and needed to purchase 1000 point items first. Its more cost effective getting the intermediary R15 items or the entry DI items than wasting 400 points and 15+mil/whack on abjs

Honest question. Why do you feel that a Thrud Earring should come before let's say, a Shijo, Adhemar Body, and Adhemar Bonnet combination? Both take 1000 points to get. I'll leave out Herculean gear since you need Reisen access to start augments with Oseem.

You are assuming every new player levels THF, which is not the case at all, so Odyssey becomes exponentially harder. You are also assuming that a new player wants to level PUP to solo UCNM, which is really grasping at straws to back your reasoning.

Let's say the new player is indeed a THF and does homework to pick locks in Odyssey and gets an Agony Jerkin +1 from the goblin. Now let's say, over 10 days, this THF accumulates 8 stacks of scales, as well as 1000 Domain Points. You're going to sit there and tell us that he should dump 800 scales into that Agony and buy a Thrud, rather than making 8 million gil, getting a Shijo, Adhemar Body and Head? Then using that 8m, buying the vexed, eschalixers, and having a decent overhead for other pieces of gear?

Wasting 400 points on abj for minor short term gains isnt worth it. Youre going to get more mileage out of the agony +1 and thrud than a couple NQ pieces, given thrud is literally bis, where as NQ adhemar is not. Agony is good enough for both TP and WS in one piece, its only shortfall is lack of acc and multihit, which isnt an issue unless youre going into dyna D.

And id wager most new players level thf as one of their first 3 jobs. Thf is pretty much mandatory in the game, given how vital TH is. Anyone that knows it exists even in passing understands how important actually getting drops is.

And again, i said a sparks pup could solo it. Meaning the mobs arent that difficult. You could lowman the content with a couple players, the bar to entry for the content isnt that high.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-06-02 18:48:17  
Something simply being BiS by itself is not a good metric of how valuable an item is; what matters is how much of an improvement an item is. Going from, say, a starter sparks or basic 119 armor to NQ abj is almost always going to be a bigger upgrade than going from generic AH earring to "Best in Slot" Thrud, and will last them plenty long enough to pay off in better performance even if the body will eventually (in the moderately distant future, because the better NQ abj pieces are still very good) be replaced.

400 Domain Points is a pittance compared to the effort you need to put in for anything comparable, including R15 Odyssey armor.

Also, you're far overestimating how quickly a new player will level a 2nd job, let alone a 3rd. Treasure Hunter is nice, but it has a very small effect (or even none) on most items new players are going to be trying to get. It's not until players are decently well established in their first job that most will consider leveling additional jobs.
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 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-06-02 19:00:03  
Asura.Geriond said: »
Something simply being BiS by itself is not a good metric of how valuable an item is; what matters is how much of an improvement an item is. Going from, say, a starter sparks or basic 119 armor to NQ abj is almost always going to be a bigger upgrade than going from generic AH earring to "Best in Slot" Thrud, and will last them plenty long enough to pay off in better performance even if the body will eventually (in the moderately distant future, because the better NQ abj pieces are still very good) be replaced.

400 Domain Points is a pittance compared to the effort you need to put in for anything comparable, including R15 Odyssey armor.

Also, you're far overestimating how quickly a new player will level a 2nd job, let alone a 3rd. Treasure Hunter is nice, but it has a very small effect (or even none) on most items new players are going to be trying to get. It's not until players are decently well established in their first job that most will consider leveling additional jobs.

And odyssey gear beats out NQ abj gear anyway, for the most part. If youre looking for the best gains from domain invasion to new players, again, the basic DI gear beats abj gear handily in cost/power ratio. Odyssey gear crushes them even further in cost/power, given all it costs is a daily entry.

And i dont know what game youre playing; people generally dont even hit 99 only leveling a single job. Most players play different things to see what they like. Rarely will someone actually stick to one to 99 and see it through if theyre a new player.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-02 19:08:10  
My Christ you're something else.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-06-02 20:44:11  
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
Something simply being BiS by itself is not a good metric of how valuable an item is; what matters is how much of an improvement an item is. Going from, say, a starter sparks or basic 119 armor to NQ abj is almost always going to be a bigger upgrade than going from generic AH earring to "Best in Slot" Thrud, and will last them plenty long enough to pay off in better performance even if the body will eventually (in the moderately distant future, because the better NQ abj pieces are still very good) be replaced.

400 Domain Points is a pittance compared to the effort you need to put in for anything comparable, including R15 Odyssey armor.

Also, you're far overestimating how quickly a new player will level a 2nd job, let alone a 3rd. Treasure Hunter is nice, but it has a very small effect (or even none) on most items new players are going to be trying to get. It's not until players are decently well established in their first job that most will consider leveling additional jobs.

And odyssey gear beats out NQ abj gear anyway, for the most part. If youre looking for the best gains from domain invasion to new players, again, the basic DI gear beats abj gear handily in cost/power ratio. Odyssey gear crushes them even further in cost/power, given all it costs is a daily entry.

And i dont know what game youre playing; people generally dont even hit 99 only leveling a single job. Most players play different things to see what they like. Rarely will someone actually stick to one to 99 and see it through if theyre a new player.
Most Odyssey gear is pretty bad for cost/power, given that every piece costs around 15 million gil worth of scales, requires a good sum of accolades, and the original unity HQ item, and the visible armor selection is very limited, with most pieces very specialized. Few, if any, of the armor pieces beat the higher priority abj gear for general usefulness, even when NQ. "All it costs is a daily entry" means nothing when the average new player will take weeks of entries and dozens of hours to get enough scales for a single piece, and that gil is better off used elsewhere on much more efficient things to buy.

Basic DI gear absolutely does not compete with abj gear in anything; outside of DI, DI gear is barely better than sparks gear, with absolutely no offensive stats other than accuracy. NQ Ambuscade gear is a far better choice for a trivial-to-get very first 119 option.

I've been playing FFXI, and I actually am in a linkshell that is partially designed for new players and has quite a few of them. I can tell you from experience that most new players absolutely level a single job to 99 and keep at it until they're decently comfortable in its performance in early/mid-level content. Only after they feel they are sufficiently competent do they generally branch out for variety or flexibility.

I'm starting to think you either have no eye for general item usefulness, no eye for item acquisition difficulty, or both.
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 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-06-02 20:53:04  
Asura.Geriond said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
Something simply being BiS by itself is not a good metric of how valuable an item is; what matters is how much of an improvement an item is. Going from, say, a starter sparks or basic 119 armor to NQ abj is almost always going to be a bigger upgrade than going from generic AH earring to "Best in Slot" Thrud, and will last them plenty long enough to pay off in better performance even if the body will eventually (in the moderately distant future, because the better NQ abj pieces are still very good) be replaced.

400 Domain Points is a pittance compared to the effort you need to put in for anything comparable, including R15 Odyssey armor.

Also, you're far overestimating how quickly a new player will level a 2nd job, let alone a 3rd. Treasure Hunter is nice, but it has a very small effect (or even none) on most items new players are going to be trying to get. It's not until players are decently well established in their first job that most will consider leveling additional jobs.

And odyssey gear beats out NQ abj gear anyway, for the most part. If youre looking for the best gains from domain invasion to new players, again, the basic DI gear beats abj gear handily in cost/power ratio. Odyssey gear crushes them even further in cost/power, given all it costs is a daily entry.

And i dont know what game youre playing; people generally dont even hit 99 only leveling a single job. Most players play different things to see what they like. Rarely will someone actually stick to one to 99 and see it through if theyre a new player.
Most Odyssey gear is pretty bad for cost/power, given that every piece costs around 15 million gil worth of scales, requires a good sum of accolades, and the original unity HQ item, and the visible armor selection is very limited, with most pieces very specialized. Few, if any, of the armor pieces beat the higher priority abj gear for general usefulness, even when NQ. "All it costs is a daily entry" means nothing when the average new player will take weeks of entries and dozens of hours to get enough scales for a single piece, and that gil is better off used elsewhere on much more efficient things to buy.

Basic DI gear absolutely does not compete with abj gear in anything; outside of DI, DI gear is barely better than sparks gear, with absolutely no offensive stats other than accuracy. NQ Ambuscade gear is a far better choice for a trivial-to-get very first 119 option.

I've been playing FFXI, and I actually am in a linkshell that is partially designed for new players and has quite a few of them. I can tell you from experience that most new players absolutely level a single job to 99 and keep at it until they're decently comfortable in its performance in early/mid-level content. Only after they feel they are sufficiently competent do they generally branch out for variety or flexibility.

I'm starting to think you either have no eye for general item usefulness, no eye for item acquisition difficulty, or both.

Oh look, someone who cant read. No, i never stated basic DI gear beats NQ abj gear, i said R15 odyssey gear does. And it does. Most of it isnt even a contest.

What i said about entry DI gear was that it was far more cost effective for new players than wasting 400 points/abj. And it is. If youre going to waste DI points before getting your 1000 point items, youre using it on the entry items, not abjurations.

And finally; no. People who are new to ffxi dont pick one job and stick to that one job. People who have played ffxi before or are returning do. The game isnt even designed to be a one job game. And unless your first job is white mage, you physically cannot do 1 job and gear that one job and be useful or relevant.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-02 21:06:20  
Gotcha. Use DI points on entry gear to replace it sooner instead of Abjurations that will last you longer.

Cool beans, you know exactly what jobs new players will play and can read into their minds.

You're one smart cookie, holy moly!
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2020-06-02 21:19:50  
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Gotcha. Use DI points on entry gear to replace it sooner instead of Abjurations that will last you longer.

Its like you refuse to read. At all.

NQ abj gear is not worth 400 DI points compared to odyssey gear, especially since DI gear gets your foot in the door for ambu to be able to get a decent bit of points/month. And odyssey gear just outright crushes NQ abj gear. Why waste points on items you wont use long when you can literally farm odyssey for far better gear? Its not like a new player is going to have millions for HQ abj lying around, some being upwards of 30 mil, and you arent going to be getting 119 af/relic for a long while either, nor 119 empy.

Odyssey R15 with ambu +2 is by far the best entry items you can get, and the fact you can solo odyssey so you dont have to worry about gil costs is a massive bonus.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-02 21:24:26  
Despite everyone telling you that you're wrong, got it.
 Sylph.Ticktick
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By Sylph.Ticktick 2020-06-03 00:03:16  
What about not fully ranking up gear? you can R11 for less than half the price of R15 or R9 for less than 1/3 the price.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2020-06-03 00:21:49  
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Wasting 400 points on abj for minor short term gains isnt worth it.
Presuming said new player is farming their scales...actually its not a presumption, were going on the basis theyre new and dont have gil.

With a high end estimate of 100 scales per Odyssey (once again, this is a new player), it will take 12 days to get enough scales to upgrade their Agony+1. It takes four days to get DI points.


Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Gotcha. Use DI points on entry gear to replace it sooner instead of Abjurations that will last you longer.

Its like you refuse to read. At all.

NQ abj gear is not worth 400 DI points compared to odyssey gear, especially since DI gear gets your foot in the door for ambu to be able to get a decent bit of points/month. And odyssey gear just outright crushes NQ abj gear. Why waste points on items you wont use long when you can literally farm odyssey for far better gear? Its not like a new player is going to have millions for HQ abj lying around, some being upwards of 30 mil, and you arent going to be getting 119 af/relic for a long while either, nor 119 empy.

Odyssey R15 with ambu +2 is by far the best entry items you can get, and the fact you can solo odyssey so you dont have to worry about gil costs is a massive bonus.

DEF:136 HP+59 MP+44 STR+34 DEX+45 VIT+34 AGI+38 INT+33 MND+33 CHR+33 Attack+84 Evasion+49 Magic Evasion+64 "Magic Def. Bonus"+6 Haste+4% Accuracy+15 "Store TP" +10
vs
DEF:132 HP+63 STR+26 DEX+43 VIT+23 AGI+39 INT+20 MND+20 CHR+20 Accuracy+40 Attack+25 Ranged Accuracy+25 Ranged Attack+25 Evasion+55 Magic Evasion+69 "Magic Def. Bonus"+6 Haste+4% "Triple Attack"+3% Enmity-7 "Dual Wield"+5

I'm going with DW/Triple Attack/Higher Acc vs higher Attack/StoreTP, and Adhemar can be reconfigured to STR/Atk instead of AGI/Acc (DEX is same in A/B)


Quote:
you arent going to be getting 119 af/relic for a long while either, nor 119 empy.
AFAIK, Theres no major restrictions on 119 AF or relic (access to limbus and access to dreamworld, both are 75 content), other than REM's pages. But if you're saying "Go on PUP and solo UNM", then they can go on PUP and solo the BCNM's for 1-5 and merit fights for 6-10 just as easily.
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By Pantafernando 2020-06-03 07:21:01  
Yo guys.

One more month of Odyssey 1.

Lets farm it!
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By RadialArcana 2020-06-04 13:56:08  
Something interesting, if old.

Ambuscade isn't instanced, it loads you into a zone with 4 dungeon areas.



When it loads you in, it just ports your group to one of the larger dungeons in each of the 4 corners. I don't know if yell is disabled in here or the distance is lowered but in theory you could have a yell conversation with the other 3 groups!

In Aug 2019, they added a duplicate zone. So now when you load into ambuscade it has a choice of two zones to put you into and 4 locations of that zone. So a total of 8 groups can do runs at once.
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By Pantafernando 2020-06-04 13:59:45  
Really? So supposelly you could clip and enter other party battlefield? Sounds unlikely
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By ksoze 2020-06-04 14:28:10  
Aren't you mixing up legion with ambu?

I recognise the legion entrance here and the different maps for the legion zones.

So not ambu.
 Bahamut.Celebrindal
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By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-06-04 14:29:25  
ksoze said: »
Aren't you mixing up legion with ambu?

I recognise the legion entrance here and the different maps for the legion zones.

So not ambu.


Thought Legion and Ambu shared a BC, which is why it can be a PITA to farm Legion for some mats during an easy ambu month.
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By Pantafernando 2020-06-04 14:32:59  
Is there anything worthwhile in Legion to farm yet? Even the unique materials seems quite cheap nowaday
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-04 14:45:26  
Pantafernando said: »
Is there anything worthwhile in Legion to farm yet? Even the unique materials seems quite cheap nowaday

Staghorn Coral and Penelope's Cloth are 5-6m per stack depending on server. Drop rate isn't the worst, came out with 4 coral and 2 cloths in 2 runs.
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By RadialArcana 2020-06-04 14:59:58  
ksoze said: »
Aren't you mixing up legion with ambu?

I recognise the legion entrance here and the different maps for the legion zones.

So not ambu.

They both use the same zone, which was a really stupid idea.

The 2nd duplicate zone is ambuscade only though.
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2020-06-04 15:20:46  
RadialArcana said: »
They both use the same zone, which was a really stupid idea.

It took me 10 minutes to enter Legion one Friday evening, and that's Bismarck.
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-06-07 06:51:00  
RadialArcana said: »
Something interesting, if old.

Ambuscade isn't instanced, it loads you into a zone with 4 dungeon areas.

When it loads you in, it just ports your group to one of the larger dungeons in each of the 4 corners. I don't know if yell is disabled in here or the distance is lowered but in theory you could have a yell conversation with the other 3 groups!

In Aug 2019, they added a duplicate zone. So now when you load into ambuscade it has a choice of two zones to put you into and 4 locations of that zone. So a total of 8 groups can do runs at once.
Yell is town-only, and eyeballing that map based on the size of the arena, the distances should be far too large for shout.
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2020-06-07 08:46:36  
RadialArcana said: »
Something interesting, if old.

Ambuscade isn't instanced, it loads you into a zone with 4 dungeon areas.



When it loads you in, it just ports your group to one of the larger dungeons in each of the 4 corners. I don't know if yell is disabled in here or the distance is lowered but in theory you could have a yell conversation with the other 3 groups!

In Aug 2019, they added a duplicate zone. So now when you load into ambuscade it has a choice of two zones to put you into and 4 locations of that zone. So a total of 8 groups can do runs at once.

Not how it works. The zone has 5 areas, because that's how they set legion up. When they made ambuscade, they reused the zone. However, you still always spawn in the same one of the 5 rooms in ambuscade, and you get a full unique 'zone' with nobody else inside.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-06-07 09:43:00  
RadialArcana said: »
Something interesting, if old.

Ambuscade isn't instanced, it loads you into a zone with 4 dungeon areas.



When it loads you in, it just ports your group to one of the larger dungeons in each of the 4 corners. I don't know if yell is disabled in here or the distance is lowered but in theory you could have a yell conversation with the other 3 groups!

In Aug 2019, they added a duplicate zone. So now when you load into ambuscade it has a choice of two zones to put you into and 4 locations of that zone. So a total of 8 groups can do runs at once.

Hmm maybe people forgot since we haven't discussed this in a very long time, FFXI isn't capable of what you call "instancing", or rather dynamic areas.

The FFXI engine is static, every possible area is already defined inside both the game data and the server resources. Whenever your character enters an area, the server sends a message telling your client to load "area 121, position 1150,800,60". The client then loads that area and puts you in that position. All the "multi-user" area's are just a really big map with multiple copies of the area loaded and the server just picks an "unused" copy to load you into. Simultaneously it sets a flag on your character so you can't interact with anything not flagged for your area, meaning you can run to the other areas just not interact with them.

What we think of as "instancing" is actually dynamic areas. This is where the server and client store a template of the area complete with scripts and all associated resources. When the client goes to load the server spins up a temporary version of that area and sends the randomized information to the client which then loads it locally. So "area 121, position 1150,800,60" becomes "template-121, number 58, starting position 1".
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