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Dev Tracker - Discussion
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-29 13:03:25  
Yes, every job has access to hate shedding abilities by dying.

Why are you guys falling for this guy's trolling again?
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-05-29 13:06:50  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Yes, every job has access to hate shedding abilities by dying.

Why are you guys falling for this guy's trolling again?

Theres only 2 or 3 DDs in the game that dont have enmity suppression capabilities, and at least 2 supports that can give those few jobs enmity reduction.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-05-29 14:19:15  
I've been going DNC/DRG to stuff for years and I still pull aggro all the time.

EDIT: should clarify that going /DRG is basically the only way I can play DNC anymore.
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By Lili 2019-05-29 14:48:09  
Weekly reminder that Nyaruun is a troll that gets pleasure from triggering us with inane statements. Don't entertain him and he'll leave. Even better, block him.

That said, both RUN and PLD can't do jack against any fully geared DD. But I think that it is a cultural problem, not a game design problem: the player base got spoiled at some point by having indestructible DDs that could go balls out and survive anything, and they have never recovered. Calibrating damage against your tank ability to hold hate should be (and actually is) a part of DDs gameplay, otherwise every and any fight just turns into a mindless zerg for those jobs. SE will probably end up doing something about it because literally everybody complains, but I am of the opinion that it's the players being wrong and they should start actually playing instead of engaging, turning on auto WS and complaining that they pulled hate.

I added an enmity reduction toggle in my war lua, that swaps enmity- accessories into ws sets when it's active. I lose around 7% DPS in exchange for 30% enmity reduction, and it's really, really noticeable. My tanks are lots happier now!
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 Asura.Chaostaru
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-05-29 14:55:13  
SE should just make it so pld and run dont have an enmity cap on any mobs. thats the only reason I see why pld/run cant hold hate because all dd's and tank/'s are capped enmity, which is probably why ambu has frequent hate resets and wonky mechanics which dont help with hate at all. then run and pld can stand there and spam blu magic, ja, hate spells to hold hate if the situation calls for it. the way it is now, once hate is capped, you might as well be doing nothing.
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 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-05-29 14:56:07  
Lili said: »
Weekly reminder that Nyaruun is a troll that gets pleasure from triggering us with inane statements. Don't entertain him and he'll leave. Even better, block him.

That said, both RUN and PLD can't do jack against any fully geared DD. But I think that it is a cultural problem, not a game design problem: the player base got spoiled at some point by having indestructible DDs that could go balls out and survive anything, and they have never recovered. Calibrating damage against your tank ability to hold hate should be (and actually is) a part of DDs gameplay, otherwise every and any fight just turns into a mindless zerg for those jobs. SE will probably end up doing something about it because literally everybody complains, but I am of the opinion that it's the players being wrong and they should start actually playing instead of engaging, turning on auto WS and complaining that they pulled hate.

I added an enmity reduction toggle in my war lua, that swaps enmity- accessories into ws sets when it's active. I lose around 7% DPS in exchange for 30% enmity reduction, and it's really, really noticeable. My tanks are lots happier now!

Yes, im a troll by providing facts. Good logic there. Seriously, is EVERYONE on this board completely *** retarded and incapable of playing the game outside of the defined cookie cutter comps, gear and abilities? Or do you just not know how to play your jobs besides "press ws, big damage, me gud DD"?
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By Taint 2019-05-29 15:01:06  
Lili said: »
Weekly reminder that Nyaruun is a troll that gets pleasure from triggering us with inane statements. Don't entertain him and he'll leave. Even better, block him.

That said, both RUN and PLD can't do jack against any fully geared DD. But I think that it is a cultural problem, not a game design problem: the player base got spoiled at some point by having indestructible DDs that could go balls out and survive anything, and they have never recovered. Calibrating damage against your tank ability to hold hate should be (and actually is) a part of DDs gameplay, otherwise every and any fight just turns into a mindless zerg for those jobs. SE will probably end up doing something about it because literally everybody complains, but I am of the opinion that it's the players being wrong and they should start actually playing instead of engaging, turning on auto WS and complaining that they pulled hate.

I added an enmity reduction toggle in my war lua, that swaps enmity- accessories into ws sets when it's active. I lose around 7% DPS in exchange for 30% enmity reduction, and it's really, really noticeable. My tanks are lots happier now!

That’s a really good idea. What are your -emn swaps?
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By Lili 2019-05-29 15:03:17  
Asura.Chaostaru said: »
SE should just make it so pld and run dont have an enmity cap on any mobs.

I don't know about removing enmity cap completely, but a Enmity Limit + Job Trait would be amazing and would nicely complement the Physical Damage Limit + we got a few months back. Make it increase by, say, 3% per tier (8/256), give 5 tiers to PLD, 4 tiers to RUN, 2-3 tiers to NIN and PUP, and you're golden.

Taint said: »
That’s a really good idea. What are your -emn swaps?

ItemSet 366657

These five items are -31% outside of ambu, -51% (capped) inside ambuscade. You can make it two-tiered if you really don't want to give up on Moonshade or Regal Ring, like if for example you need the accuracy.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-29 15:33:01  
This is interesting. Enmity- meta!

Anyway. I seem to recall that most items that have the same stat as a normal stat and as a latent don't add the two together when active. You typically just use the latent value when active. So that earring is probably just -20 in ambu, not -24. Should be tested to be certain though. If that's the case you'd be at -47 in ambuscade.

Also, I don't know if this would be a useful addition for WAR, but there's a bow with enmity -5 if you can stand giving up the ammo slot as well. Would have to TP in it too though. https://www.ffxiah.com/item/19216/failnaught
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2019-05-29 15:38:58  
Dirge, even without marcato or SV, should cover your needs in most circumstances, and will typically cost less DPS than the other sacrifices. If you regularly party with the same BRD, using 4 nightingale, 1 troubadour, and 5 dirge for certain content can be very handy.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-29 15:45:11  
Lili said: »
...But I think that it is a cultural problem, not a game design problem: the player base got spoiled at some point by having indestructible DDs that could go balls out and survive anything, and they have never recovered. Calibrating damage against your tank ability to hold hate should be (and actually is) a part of DDs gameplay, otherwise every and any fight just turns into a mindless zerg for those jobs. SE will probably end up doing something about it because literally everybody complains, but I am of the opinion that it's the players being wrong and they should start actually playing instead of engaging, turning on auto WS and complaining that they pulled hate.

I added an enmity reduction toggle in my war lua, that swaps enmity- accessories into ws sets when it's active. I lose around 7% DPS in exchange for 30% enmity reduction, and it's really, really noticeable. My tanks are lots happier now!

When the new grip with ENM-5 DT-6 came out, I suggested to a few people that using it over Utu was a good choice to improve survivability (in both areas), and that gearing for DT/enmity down wasn't a bad idea and barely a dps loss; people laughed at me saying "but Utu destroys it in DPS, why would you want to do LESS damage??".

But put it all in a lua command line and it's the next best thing since React.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-05-29 15:54:45  
Problem is that most DD sets are highly optimized and changing out one or two items triggers a rebuild of the set.

A far better idea is to use a song slot for dirge. Seriously that song is OP for enmity reduction.
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 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-05-29 15:58:31  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Problem is that most DD sets are highly optimized and changing out one or two items triggers a rebuild of the set.

A far better idea is to use a song slot for dirge. Seriously that song is OP for enmity reduction.

Especially with how efficient Honor March itself is.
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By Nariont 2019-05-29 16:26:12  
even if its specific for ambu ive been using the legion earring for awhile, very minimal loss and the effect is noticeable right out, rings/waist are harder to get away with but 1 ear is usually not too big a concern.

SB is also very easy to gear towards for just about every job in the game, not as useful compared to -enm but still nice to have available if ever in a situation you wanted to limit TP feed and were the sole DD
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By Lili 2019-05-29 18:04:44  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
This is interesting. Enmity- meta!

Right? It was about time too! Everybody worrying about Enmity- on whm/brd/geo cures, and nobody actually caring about the jobs that actually do steal enmity all the time lol.

Ragnarok.Martel said: »
I seem to recall that most items that have the same stat as a normal stat and as a latent don't add the two together when active. You typically just use the latent value when active. So that earring is probably just -20 in ambu, not -24. Should be tested to be certain though. If that's the case you'd be at -47 in ambuscade.

I'm going to say that the difference between -50 and -47 is negligible as far as I'm concerned. But it occurred to me too, so I got an Ambuscade Ring and went into Ambuscade to test. I made a set with 98% DA (including ring) and no TA/QA, and over 500ish attack rounds I didn't see a single non-double attack according to Battlemod. Granted, it's still definitely in the realm of normal variance, so it's not a guarantee... having a confirmation would be nice, maybe I'll get in the mood for some more testing eventually.

Ragnarok.Martel said: »
There's a bow with enmity -5 if you can stand giving up the ammo slot as well. Would have to TP in it too though. https://www.ffxiah.com/item/19216/failnaught

I noticed that one, but my idea was to make a toggle that I could switch on the fly as needed. Losing TP everytime you enable/disable the toggle is not ideal :\

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
When the new grip with ENM-5 DT-6 came out, I suggested to a few people that using it over Utu was a good choice to improve survivability (in both areas), and that gearing for DT/enmity down wasn't a bad idea and barely a dps loss; people laughed at me saying "but Utu destroys it in DPS, why would you want to do LESS damage??".

For what it's worth, you have my sympathy lol. It's difficult to make new ideas take root. I personally decided to keep that grip outside of my toggle for the same reason above re: the bow, but I can see it being really good.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Problem is that most DD sets are highly optimized and changing out one or two items triggers a rebuild of the set.

This is very true, but my toggle exclusively swaps stuff from WS sets, all TP sets stay the same. So X-hits and cycle time are equal, and most of the time I only lose 1/4 Store TP from Brutal/Cessance (depending if I use both or not for that WS), which doesn't lower TP overflow by that much. If anything, the hit to Accuracy is much bigger (Upheaval loses around 50 accuracy by swapping out all four rings and Ioskeha belt).

Everybody said:
Adventurer's Dirge.

Totally, but there's two problems with that, both having to do with the fact that I'm playing WAR, not bard:
1) after years of people going "go 5/5 ni+tro, those two songs are completely useless", it's difficult to change people's minds
2) the situation where there's the biggest chance that your tank is crap are PUGs, and it's the same situation where you don't necessarily know who your bard will be, thus slim chance they'll have dirge and even slimmer they'll go change their merits at your request.

Outside of those two situations (i.e. playing with friends or multiboxing), I completely agree about Dirge. Heck, in places like DynaD where it's likely you'll have SV songs, to cap you only need 4/5 Dirge with +7 song, or 3/5 Dirge and +5 song with relic hands, perfectly achievable even by a cheaply geared alt (Eminent Harp is +2, NQ neck is +3).

Still, since I often play with real BRD players, having the toggle is worth it to me, and the small reduction to DPS is compensated by the fact that I don't get the mob's attention. In some ambu PUGs, where the accuracy loss doesn't even matter that much most of the time, it's been an absolute lifesaver.
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-05-29 18:09:32  
similar concept- my roll sets on COR are now loaded w/ -enmity gear in the free slots (slots where no +roll duration or +roll gear exists...a lot of them). As the DD capabilities of COR have improved with new gear, its a whole lot easier to pull hate on that job, and carrying a few extra pieces or taking advantage of gear I'm already carrying around for a secondary purpose while not even affecting that DPS ability is pretty damn sweet.

Hate pulling due to rolling doesn't really happen that often outside of extended fights and those times you're doubling up 4-5 times on one roll, but its something.
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By Afania 2019-05-29 18:16:05  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Name me one situation right now where you'd bring a PLD if a similarly geared and skilled RUN was available.
Name me one situation where such a similarly geared PLD cannot get the job done with pretty similar efficiency and negligible difference in term of skill required from the player and time consumed by the whole party/alliance.


People used w3 ninja as an example, but imo its barely an issue in event. You can either arise the dead pld asap and get back to tanking, or full cure the pld when you see nin get pulled. Personally, I wouldnt care what tank I use just because of ninja. For a well organized pt, pld die to nin once or twice per run doesnt matter much.

However, its gambit that really made RUN a much better choice in dynamis D. Wildfire with malaise avg 36k to 45k on volte, occassionally spike to 49k. Leaden also hit 45k to 56k on fetter.
On wave 3 boss leaden easily hit 99999 and often came out over 65k+ avg in the end. Without ever pulling hate.

If you bring rng, TF is also very strong on volte.

Leaden/wf/tf are easily some of the best ws in wave 3 runs, and gambit enhances it. Thats the real reason why RUN is a much better choice in dyna D: you can buff your best DD in alliance by 30% every 5 min. So more dps = more RP per run.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-05-29 18:31:45  
Worth noting that with the TP/WS damage split being what it is I think you could probably just use enm- gear in your WS set and be good.
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By Lili 2019-05-29 18:43:52  
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Worth noting that with the TP/WS damage split being what it is I think you could probably just use enm- gear in your WS set and be good.

Sometimes I feel like people do not read what I write :(
By volkom 2019-05-29 18:53:04  
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-05-29 18:54:49  
Lili said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Worth noting that with the TP/WS damage split being what it is I think you could probably just use enm- gear in your WS set and be good.

Sometimes I feel like people do not read what I write :(

Don't feel bad! I don't read what anyone writes!
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-29 19:27:13  
Lili said: »
I'm going to say that the difference between -50 and -47 is negligible as far as I'm concerned. But it occurred to me too, so I got an Ambuscade Ring and went into Ambuscade to test. I made a set with 98% DA (including ring) and no TA/QA, and over 500ish attack rounds I didn't see a single non-double attack according to Battlemod. Granted, it's still definitely in the realm of normal variance, so it's not a guarantee... having a confirmation would be nice, maybe I'll get in the mood for some more testing eventually.
A simpler test would be just checking the latent up/down difference in acc+ on a eminent weapon. They all have acc and then more acc under latent.

The dagger has +24 acc normally, and +39 with latent up. If the values are added, then I should see a 39 acc difference between latent up and down. If it simply uses the higher value, I should see a difference of 15.

So I grabbed one and went and checked.

Latent up acc : 1101
Latent down ACC: 1086
15 acc difference.

So in this case at least, the higher latent stat value replaces the normal stat rather than adding to it.

Now, this doesn't mean that all latent items behave the same, but it's a pretty good precedent for general latent mechanics.

The best test would of course be to test the item in question itself. But enmity tests are pretty annoying in the first place, and the legion/ambu restriction makes it a fair bit more difficult.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-29 22:00:14  
Question Martel: are you certain that items marked "Latent" are the same as zone conditional ones like Salvage, Legion etc? I understand the assumption, but a more accurate test would be to see if a legion specific marked item's affect removes the base effect.

Take for instance this item
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Myrddin_Pearl

Based on your logic, the mind+2 and magic accuracy should be replace with mph+10? The mind effect should be visibly gone if you equip it in legion. Or are you only saying if the two stats are the same it just gives you the higher stat instead?

I don't think that's how that gear works, is not the same as Latent. It should be assumed that the zone bonus effect is additive to the base bonus. If you test the earring above, then the logic should be the exact same for other gear working on legion. Should be fairly easy to test
 Siren.Flannelman
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By Siren.Flannelman 2019-05-29 22:13:16  
The Myrddin Pearl example isnt the same thing as the Eminent Dagger example. The Dagger is replacing the same stat listed, not a completely different stat like on the earring.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-29 22:19:34  
I get that, but that's because it's explicitly worded as "Latent" effect. The legion specific earrings aren't actually Latent effects which replace the base effects under certain conditions; they are additions to the base stats that are given when the the equipment is worn while inside the zone.

Can be read as
(All the time): [base effect]
While inside legion: [+effect]

Nothing about the earring implies the stat is being replaced by another, regardless of it's the same.

I could be wrong
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-05-29 22:58:34  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Question Martel: are you certain that items marked "Latent" are the same as zone conditional ones like Salvage, Legion etc? I understand the assumption, but a more accurate test would be to see if a legion specific marked item's affect removes the base effect.

Take for instance this item
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Myrddin_Pearl

Based on your logic, the mind+2 and magic accuracy should be replace with mph+10? The mind effect should be visibly gone if you equip it in legion. Or are you only saying if the two stats are the same it just gives you the higher stat instead?

I don't think that's how that gear works, is not the same as Latent. It should be assumed that the zone bonus effect is additive to the base bonus. If you test the earring above, then the logic should be the exact same for other gear working on legion. Should be fairly easy to test
While it was in a different post than the test itself I specifically stated that this was only in the case when an item had a given stat normally, and then had that same stat again via a latent/conditional effect.
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Anyway. I seem to recall that most items that have the same stat as a normal stat and as a latent don't add the two together when active. You typically just use the latent value when active. So that earring is probably just -20 in ambu, not -24. Should be tested to be certain though. If that's the case you'd be at -47 in ambuscade.
Just to make sure I'm being extremely clear. Let's take eminent dagger as an example.

DMG:85 Delay:183 Accuracy+24 Evasion+24 Dagger skill +203 Parrying skill +203 Magic Accuracy skill +167 Latent effect: DMG:89 Accuracy+39 Attack+10

So we have +24 acc normally, and then +39 with latent up. The same mechanic would apply to the DMG value, as that stat exists both in the normal stats, and again under the latent.

However the Attack+10 in the latent doesn't replace anything. As there's no attack on the item outside the latent to conflict with. So it's simply added in.

I hope this clarifies the mechanic that I'm referring to and that my test with this dagger just demonstrated.

Now, while I acknowledge the possibility that zone conditional items could differ in their mechanics. I think that's very unlikely. A zone conditional stat is just latent where they don't make the trigger condition a mystery. You just have "Legion:" instead of "Latent:". It's exactly the same thing as "Rainy Weather:" and so on.

But in any case, if you want to test this specifically for "Legion:" items, The item you proposed would not be a valid test. Since there is no conflicting duplicate stat in the normal stats, the Legion: stat is simply added.

You'd need to test with one of the Legion latent items that has the same stat normally and then modified under latent. That leaves only these legion items.

Ambuscade Ring (DA)
Veneficium Ring (Quick cast)
Saviesa Pearl (Macc)
Cytherea Pearl (enmity-)

All of which suck to test. Frankly the enmity- one would be the fastest. You just need to managed a controlled test on VE ambu, or legion. The others could require rather annoying sample sizes.

I might test it later. But I need sleep now.
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 Sylph.Brahmsz
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-05-30 05:39:00  
I like the direction this has been going on Melee DD Enmity-. It's actually not a bad idea for content like Wave 3 bossess. Sadly, outside of hate shed Enmity build-up will always boil down to a factor of time.

volkom said: »

lol
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-05-30 10:11:46  
Just 4/5 Dirge and 1/5 Troub is a huge reduction in enmity gain while not nerfing damage output. We've been having our BRDs do that and it's been awesome do far.
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 Asura.Meliorah
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By Asura.Meliorah 2019-05-30 11:36:57  
I really hope for bard changes they give access to Dirge without merits, that song has been pretty helpful for a lot of content doing melee zergs where the 5th song is likely going to be an etude that would hardly bump damage or not bump damage at all for a few jobs.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-05-30 12:09:40  
Dirge definitely deserves a spot in any song rotation. Even with one merit it's super useful. Troubadour merits only gives magic acc so can be reduced to fit Dirge in. The reason we all treated it like garbage was back when it was introduced enmity and "tanking" was a joke, DD's capped hate so fast it didn't matter. We've gone through several updates and overhauls of the enmity system and it's actually worth a damn now.

Dirge is -10 enmity base with another -1 for each +1 song. Each additional merit is -3 enmity and the JSE gives -2 per total merit.

So at 1/5 Dirge is as follows
-10 Base
-7 +Song
-2 JSE
-19 total.

At 2/5 it's
-13 Base
-7 +Song
-4 JSE
-24 total.

At 3/5 it's
-16 Base
-7 +Song
-6 JSE
-29 total.

And at 4/5 we have
-19 Base
-7 +Song
-8 JSE
-34 total.

We can see that it's definitely worth 1~2 merits if not the full 4 because Troubadour gives "Increases song accuracy by 25% for each rank beyond the first", so it's only really worth a damn at 5/5 for an Elemental Seal effect every 10 minutes. JSE gives 4s increased Troubadour duration for each merit so that's 16s of duration worst case scenario.
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