Asura.Saevel said: »
Which is why I said for 95% of the time. That last 5% is weird abilities and mechanics that tend to stump people because they think only in terms of PDT/MDT/BDT.
Omen Findings
Omen Findings
There are several thousands of attacks, WSs, and spells in the game, and about 10 don't fall into physical, magical, or breath, and bypass DT altogether. It's not really stumping people, and it's very easy to test new moves when they have super long charge times or are always used at certain HP intervals.
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Yeah... in the context that is being handled here, there's no reason to discuss anything besides the four damage categories that may affect a player: physical, magical, breath, or spirit (commonly mistaken for breath, the distinction being that spirit damage bypasses DT almost altogether similar to Requiescat) unless we're discussing beastmaster. There is no distinction between slashing, blunt, h2h, etc. for a player (however it does come in to effect for pets), as there is no equipment that says "reduces damage taken from slashing attacks by 10%", there is only blanket physical, magical, or breath reduction.
In the case of Pain Sync it's either breath or spirit.
In the case of Pain Sync it's either breath or spirit.
Kei sounds impossible without Magic Burst but I would love to be proven wrong. Physical dmg goes up a bit when the shield is down but it's still disappointing, saw 3~6k Shun with Frailty, can maybe expect 10k~ with a stronger WS and more buffs...
Dancing Fullers can be out ranged by running beyond 10' but Kei will draw-in everyone if the tank runs too early or too far (which can result in a full wipe), the move can really be avoided easily with some pratice though.
We killed it with RUN, SMN, SCH, COR, GEO, WHM. Ramuh did almost all the dmg with Thunderstorm MBs (I can now say that all the mid-bosses and Caturaes can be done with 1 SMN as main DD), we got poor results with Ice MBs (lot of 1/2 resists). Pretty sure it can be done with a melee instead of SCH if he can SC with the RUN, we tried that once and it wasn't too bad but Dancing Fullers is even more a pain to dodge.
Dancing Fullers can be out ranged by running beyond 10' but Kei will draw-in everyone if the tank runs too early or too far (which can result in a full wipe), the move can really be avoided easily with some pratice though.
We killed it with RUN, SMN, SCH, COR, GEO, WHM. Ramuh did almost all the dmg with Thunderstorm MBs (I can now say that all the mid-bosses and Caturaes can be done with 1 SMN as main DD), we got poor results with Ice MBs (lot of 1/2 resists). Pretty sure it can be done with a melee instead of SCH if he can SC with the RUN, we tried that once and it wasn't too bad but Dancing Fullers is even more a pain to dodge.
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Its funny that people on my server are demanding geo's to have idris to do this.
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Yeah... in the context that is being handled here, there's no reason to discuss anything besides the four damage categories that may affect a player: physical, magical, breath, or spirit (commonly mistaken for breath, the distinction being that spirit damage bypasses DT almost altogether similar to Requiescat) unless we're discussing beastmaster. There is no distinction between slashing, blunt, h2h, etc. for a player (however it does come in to effect for pets), as there is no
No such thing as "spirit", it's just those combination of damage flags. Requeiescat isn't spirit it's magic non-elemental but not a spell. Whenever an action is performed on any target, part of the code has it comparing the actions damage flags vs the targets resistance flags and then resolving whether to or subtract damage. SE has been inconsistent with their application and didn't use this mechanic heavily until SoA. The "spirit" damage your refering to is just damage without a Magic, Physical or Breath flag set but still having the non-elemental flag on.
Regular Knuckles typically have H2H flag set along with physical but Vampiric Claws have Slashing and Physical set. The Vamperism sword has Piercing and Physical set, Twilight Scythe used to have only Non-Elemental set, SE has since messed with it so I wouldn't be sure anymore. Formless sets your damage flag to Magic and unset Physical. Some breath attacks have both Magic and Breath flags set, all part of SE's inconsistent application. Weapon skills are separate attacks and have their own flags, which is why you can have a <Piercing, Physical> sword in your hand but deal <Slashing, Physical>, <Dark, Magic>, or <Non-Elemental, Magic> damage.
Absolutely nothing in this game "bypass's DT", or specifically SDT. Instead it's just a set of flags that are checked on both sides and the result resolved according to the whims of the SE developers. Gear "DT" like we wear gives you multiple resistances in each of those categories, it's not a single value. Each category is checked separately if the incoming attack has that particular flag set, otherwise it's ignored. And it's entirely possible to have only <Non-Elemental> flag set which would make our regular forms of damage reduction almost useless.
Again I know this all seems weird and convoluted, it's just how they coded the battle system back in 2001. Normally we'd never even know about it, except SE's inconsistent designs have exposed some of it's short comings. It's pretty easy for a computer to handle these values and gives infinitely more flexibility to the battle engine vs just having a few values to design with. The downside would be the player being overwhelmed with all the resistance values so instead SE just masked them all and gave us really concise and general groupings of "Magic, Physical, Breath".
But hey there's a ruler if you really wanna measure.
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Asura.Topace said: »
Its funny that people on my server are demanding geo's to have idris to do this.
Asura.Saevel said: »
stuff
I'm not even gonna bother addressing the many misunderstandings of game mechanics in your post. Do you have anything you wanna say about Omen?
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To be fair, "spirit damage" is, as far as I can tell, more or less based on archaic misunderstandings of the past, given that what it's named after is known to be Breath damage. I don't think there's been nearly enough testing on player-usable "weird" damage types to really say anything definitive on the matter, though.
Spirit damage != spirits within
or atonement.
or quick draw.
Requiescat is the primary player usable example of it. It is not simply non elemental magical damage, because if it was so simple then something such as a caturae's shield would still block it, however it is still a damage type as it does not bypass things like EA/Scherzo. I have a very heavy suspicion that Pain Sync is not breath damage, but instead the fourth category, whatever you want to decide to call it.
or atonement.
or quick draw.
Requiescat is the primary player usable example of it. It is not simply non elemental magical damage, because if it was so simple then something such as a caturae's shield would still block it, however it is still a damage type as it does not bypass things like EA/Scherzo. I have a very heavy suspicion that Pain Sync is not breath damage, but instead the fourth category, whatever you want to decide to call it.
"Spirit" is just an imaginary category people like to attribute damage that they don't understand to. Monsters that take bonus damage from Magic also take bonus damage from Requiescat, if the monster has innate resistance to magic then Requiescat will do less damage. You can see this most clearly in Flan type NMs that have Spiky head mode or monster like Delve Cracklaw / Mata where you can force damage to go one way or another. I've been able to do silly Requiescat numbers this way. Sometimes SE screws up the checking for the flags and we get interesting results, like how Mata treats Blue Physical spells (Dart/Sinker/Ect.) as magical damage but properly applies the physical damage bonus. Those same Blue Spells are prime examples of this system since not only do they have the normal flags but also monster family flags which is a separate bonus / penalty.
Honestly I feel this is somewhere that SE really could of expanded game mechanic wise. Since it's possible to have specific elemental reductions they could of implemented gear and spells targeting specific element damage instead of making it turn into general Magic Evasion. Giving weapons elemental properties instead of just additional damage effects.
Honestly I feel this is somewhere that SE really could of expanded game mechanic wise. Since it's possible to have specific elemental reductions they could of implemented gear and spells targeting specific element damage instead of making it turn into general Magic Evasion. Giving weapons elemental properties instead of just additional damage effects.
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Quote:
Spirit damage != spirits within
I know, but it was originally named after Spirits Within.
Yeah Saevel everyone knows there are different classifications for physical damage, but those classifications have no bearing on the context that you're attempting to reply to. Player characters don't care if they're taking blunt, slashing, or piercing damage, it's all physical damage to us.
Fun fact, most monster attacks are considered slashing damage. The only notable exceptions come from monks. Even some beastmen shoot arrows that deal slashing damage instead of piercing, either due to laziness during their creation or lack of foresight. The only way to know this is by using beastmaster pets.
Fun fact, most monster attacks are considered slashing damage. The only notable exceptions come from monks. Even some beastmen shoot arrows that deal slashing damage instead of piercing, either due to laziness during their creation or lack of foresight. The only way to know this is by using beastmaster pets.
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Siren.Kyte said: »
It was originally named after Spirits Within.
Yes it was and since we had no way to determine breath attacks we mistakenly thought everything in the game as either "Magic" or "Physical. Spirits within did damage completely outside of those conventions and was thus termed "Spirit damage". Later we figured out it was just Non-Elemental Breath Damage.
Requiescat most certainly is magic damage, it's just non-elemental magic. Cacturae are just examples of NMs where SE implemented specific checks (Physical, Blunt, Piercing, Spell) and forgot the general checks for things that don't fall into those we can use Quick Draw and Requiescat to deal enough damage to break the shield without having the 100% resistance penalty applied. Spell is a category in and of itself and used mostly to check for procs but occasionally for damage mechanics.
Hello everyone
Question:
what people uses to kill Craver NM on Omen?
strategies? set ups?
Question:
what people uses to kill Craver NM on Omen?
strategies? set ups?
Attack it until it dies
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Yeah Saevel everyone knows there are different classifications for physical damage, but those classifications have no bearing on the context that you're attempting to reply to. Player characters don't care if they're taking blunt, slashing, or piercing damage, it's all physical damage to us.
Fun fact, most monster attacks are considered slashing damage. The only notable exceptions come from monks. Even some beastmen shoot arrows that deal slashing damage instead of piercing, either due to laziness during their creation or lack of foresight. The only way to know this is by using beastmaster pets.
Fun fact, most monster attacks are considered slashing damage. The only notable exceptions come from monks. Even some beastmen shoot arrows that deal slashing damage instead of piercing, either due to laziness during their creation or lack of foresight. The only way to know this is by using beastmaster pets.
Right and NM's apply damage to us using this same system and SE isn't known for consistency, transparency (slowly changing) or making functional flawless code without glitch's, design oversight and mistakes.
99% of this game is finding some exploit or design oversight in SE's code and exploiting that. We even have a non-elemental magic spell that we can cast.
And your edit kind of confirmed exactly what I was saying...
The point that you're seemingly ignoring is that, unlike monsters and monster-like objects (pets), players have no way of mitigating special or individual damage types. To a player, the only categories that matter are the base ones. The best you could hope to do against a non elemental spell is pray that it's resistable and pile on magic evasion.
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
The point that you're seemingly ignoring is that, unlike monsters and monster-like objects (pets), players have no way of mitigating special or individual damage types. To a player, the only categories that matter are the base ones. The best you could hope to do against a non elemental spell is pray that it's resistable and pile on magic evasion.
You finally caught on to what I was speaking about, after all the posturing so you could act like your talking down to me while actually agreeing with what I was saying.
Identifying what kind of ability that's being used is a good place to start figuring out how to mitigate it. Pain Sync is most likely Non-Elemental Breath Damage with the base power being determined by the amount of damage it received while readying the move. Its likely flagged as non-resistable, otherwise those Idris Vex/Attunment's would have a RUN resisting it.
This tangent was specifically started over someone stating about damage types, and me replying that the system is a lot more complicated under the hood and that complication is responsible for some of the inconsistencies in the damage mechanics. You provided the perfect example as the Cacturai's shield would block <Spell> but not <Job Ability> or <Weapon Skill> that didn't have one of the specific types it had 100% resistance to. Run's Rayke / Gambit directly modify the elemental resistance values without modifying the general P/M/B values.
From a design stand point it makes sense how and why they did it, they were just inconsistent with the rules.
:Edit:
Actually there IS a way to give ourselves family damage resistance, Circle Abilities and BST's Killer Instinct. Arcane Circle gives everyone a 15% (17 with gear) resistance against attacks with the Arcane Family flag regardless of what other flags they possess. I've exploited the hell out of those abilities.
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If it's breath damage then it can be reduced. Non-elemental does not mean that the damage can not be reduced or resisted. It means it has no attributed element. A damage type requires a special property (or as you've been calling them, flag) to bypass SDT or MDT/PDT/BDT to work the way you're implying. Merely stripping a spell of its element has no logical bearing on whether the spell can be resisted, or reduced, by every means of damage reduction that we have available (out side of "Last Stand" style effects like Migawari).
This would mean that things like d.ring, dark rings, etc. would be having a noticeable effect since 10%-20% off of 20-30k would easily be recognizable, but so far I have yet to see any evidence of this.
That's the entire point of what I've been saying, aside from your outlining of all the different damage types being, while not incorrect, completely superfluous to the topic that was originally being discussed.
This would mean that things like d.ring, dark rings, etc. would be having a noticeable effect since 10%-20% off of 20-30k would easily be recognizable, but so far I have yet to see any evidence of this.
That's the entire point of what I've been saying, aside from your outlining of all the different damage types being, while not incorrect, completely superfluous to the topic that was originally being discussed.
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
If it's breath damage then it can be reduced. Non-elemental does not mean that the damage can not be reduced or resisted. It means it has no attributed element. A damage type requires a special property (or as you've been calling them, flag) to bypass SDT or MDT/PDT/BDT to work the way you're implying. Merely stripping a spell of its element has no logical bearing on whether the spell can be resisted, or reduced, by every means of damage reduction that we have available (out side of "Last Stand" style effects like Migawari).
There wouldn't need a special property, exactly the opposite, it would be the lack of a property that causes the unmitigatable damage.
See the way it works is that the code first checks the attack's flags to determine which damage reduction / bonus's to apply. If an attack has <Fire> as a flag (that's a programming term btw) then the code knows to check for Fire reduction or increase. If an attack has a <Slashing> flag then it checks for that, so on and so forth. If an attack doesn't have a <Blunt> flag then the code won't even check to apply any resistance / bonus for blunt, so on an so forth. In the case of Pain Sync there has most certainly be reductions, some people take less then others. There is no big giant "Damage Taken" number, that would be very confined for battle mechanics and be virtually useless to the developers. Instead there are over a dozen separate resistance values for each character and monster. General purpose "DT" gear probably just increases the three main ones (P/M/B), but there are many more.
It's done this way so that during code execution it can be calculated on the fly without needing the developers to make too many exceptions. With the sheer number of weapons and abilities combinations in this game, having to code a separate algorithm for every monster for every attack would be beyond cumbersome. But with this system the developer would have to be very consistent to ensure the player could actually understand what was going on and build strategy around it. SE has been anything but so we get silly notions like "Spirit damage". An attack completely lacking a flag for Physical, Magic or Breath would never actually check the resistance for those three and instead just check typical Elemental or Species resistances if it had those flags. It would appear to us to be "bypassing DT" though if we could discover it's element we could reduce it, or if we could find a family resistance (another place I think SE really failed to expand on) we could reduce it. It would be a non-type specific attack.
In short, all attacks would deal 100% damage unless there was a specific reason not to deal 100% damage. That reason is determined by comparing the flags of an attack against the resistance values of the defender. If they match then a reduction or bonus is applied, otherwise the code moves on. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if a MEVD resistance reduction wasn't applied in this way.
Note:
I use the word "Flag" because that's the programming term for a set of Boolean property's that's part of an object. Usually they are sequential in memory and take up exactly one bit of memory, typically organized into a Word or Double Word value. So deep in code <Fire> property would be read as "bit 28 of flags value", <Slashing> would be "bit 5" and so forth. If the bit value was "1" then it would be returned as "true", otherwise it would be "0" and returned as "false".
As it stands, however, there is no way for us, as players, to determine if there is a fourth damage type or if there is a set of flags where having no flags attributed to an attack causes the attack to ignore certain types of DT- as both of these would work the exact same way. With how cumbersome SE always makes their code out to be, it would really surprise me if they had the foresight to build a system as easy to use and adaptable as the one you're describing.
All we can say for almost certain at this point is that it is not abreath, magic, or physical attack or else our DT- would work and be easily measurable as working. We can also say that the Thinker has far more HP than it needs for the type of fight that it is.
Edit: We can't actually say that it isn't breath yet since we still need more data on that, but physical and magical are easily ruled out. I, personally, haven't seen Pain Sync reduced by the amount that I'd expect from a standard GEO idle set, though. The only real way to mitigate it, however, is not allowing it to be built up at all which is why the NM having so much HP is stupid.
All we can say for almost certain at this point is that it is not a
Edit: We can't actually say that it isn't breath yet since we still need more data on that, but physical and magical are easily ruled out. I, personally, haven't seen Pain Sync reduced by the amount that I'd expect from a standard GEO idle set, though. The only real way to mitigate it, however, is not allowing it to be built up at all which is why the NM having so much HP is stupid.
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
As it stands, however, there is no way for us, as players, to determine if there is a fourth damage type or if there is a set of flags where having no flags attributed to an attack causes the attack to ignore certain types of DT- as both of these would work the exact same way. With how cumbersome SE always makes their code out to be, it would really surprise me if they had the foresight to build a system as easy to use and adaptable as the one you're describing.
All we can say for almost certain at this point is that it is not a breath, magic, or physical attack or else our DT- would work and be easily measurable as working. We can also say that the Thinker has far more HP than it needs for the type of fight that it is.
All we can say for almost certain at this point is that it is not a breath, magic, or physical attack or else our DT- would work and be easily measurable as working. We can also say that the Thinker has far more HP than it needs for the type of fight that it is.
According to Braden's testimony, DT gear does work. I am simply skeptical of it being breath damage until it's been shown that BDT actually gear lowers the damage from it.
Well there's one easy way to find out. Someone with a couple of Combusters can get on PLD/NIN and go to town.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
That's the entire point of what I've been saying, aside from your outlining of all the different damage types being, while not incorrect, completely superfluous to the topic that was originally being discussed.
This topic has gone on far too long. Everyone playing this game longer than a week should understand that damage can check as multiple damage classifications. However, we as players don't have knowing ways to lower certain types of damage like slashing, blunt, etc, so it's basically pointless to talk about them more than types of damage we can inflict on our enemies (or in the case of Bst Pets tanking perhaps).
There's zero need to write essay length posts on how a programmer may be programming damage types into FFXI to understand how we could reduce the damage of an attack. It's not that complicated. All that matters is if we can reduce the damage by DT gear, Scherzo/EA/Vallation/other JAs/Shadows/Parry, resist the damage down, or lower it through numbers of people.
It seems very likely that Pain Sync is BDT since PDT/MDT isn't working yet at the very least DT/Scherzo/EA works to reduce its damage. Time to move on!
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
As it stands, however, there is no way for us, as players, to determine if there is a fourth damage type or if there is a set of flags where having no flags attributed to an attack causes the attack to ignore certain types of DT- as both of these would work the exact same way.
At this point in time I'm beyond certain that there are all those properties. Monster Correlation effects, Blue Magic itself, various Circle and Killer abilities, many NM's with damage mechanics that completely defy the "Only Physical, Magic, Breath and Something Else" concept. You have enemies with take +25% damage from fire attacks, including things like Fire Shot. You have a Job who's greatest abilities allows it to reduce damage from elemental attacks, regardless if they are magic or not and inflict a vulnerability on an enemy to specific elements regardless of the damage being magic. You have a Weaponskill that gets bonus damage when an enemy has bonus magic applied but doesn't have any single element assigned to it. We have two SP's that give 100% immunity to a single damage type (Physical or Magical) yet there are attacks that can still damage them. We have NM's like Tojil or Shark that take bonus damage from specific types during specific portions of their HP and / or reduce damage from other types during those portions as well. This on top of all sorts of monsters having weakness's to things like Piercing or Slashing while having reduction from something else. As well as some NM's that require seesaw balancing of damage from different types.
It's simply not possible for all this to function without a single system of flags as part of the attacks' object in memory. There would be far more exceptions then rules, too many exceptions to manage. And this has been standard in FF games for decades, all the way back to the original Final Fantasy where the NA release had the flags disabled because the JP developers thought it would be too complicated for us. This type of system is very common in RPG's as it makes the battle system 10x easier to code. Any need to change a weapons or attacks property wouldn't require you to redo every fight in the game and instead just alter the values on a single memory structure somewhere.
Take Vampirec Claws for example, those deal <Slashing, Physical> damage instead of the typical <H2H, Physical> of other knuckles. To make that work without using a flag system SE would of had to code in an exception, just for those weapons, into every single combat script in the entire game, including all future content, for the life of the video game. As more non-standard weapons, attacks or defenses were created they two would require an exception be made into not only all future battle scripts, but also every past battle script. Very soon the entire system becomes unwieldy and impossible to update. FFXI would of died around ToAU era if it didn't have a flexible battle system.
Dude get over it already, it's BDT
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Got Thinker again tonight, added Hagondes Hat (PDT-4% MDT-4%) and Lunette Ring +1 (DT-3%) to the 15% I had before. Damage taken was approximately 82.5% of what other players were taking.
So either the 4th category Proth's talking about exists and Pain Sync is in it, or the MDT augment ID doesn't contribute to BDT anymore.
edit: actually, I'm now remembering I had GS setup in a way that the Hagondes Hat was likely overwritten by Azimuth Hood, so back to probably regular BDT. I'm just gonna sit the next Thinker out on melee and focus on DT sets to verify and be done with it.
So either the 4th category Proth's talking about exists and Pain Sync is in it, or the MDT augment ID doesn't contribute to BDT anymore.
edit: actually, I'm now remembering I had GS setup in a way that the Hagondes Hat was likely overwritten by Azimuth Hood, so back to probably regular BDT. I'm just gonna sit the next Thinker out on melee and focus on DT sets to verify and be done with it.
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