Political Discussion Thread

It's nice that you think peoples entire family and group of close friends can sit back and laugh about things like those in today's times.

Has any of you visited an emergency room recently?

People uninsured use emergency rooms as doctor visits. The means people, people who MAY have healthcare, with real emergencies, are being shuffled in the back of the line, providing not-the-best care because doctors and nurses have to treat people without insurance because a private doctor won't see them.

On another note, ask anyone in the health field and they will tell you that doctors over-test ***just to avoid frivolous lawsuits. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. That also adds to the cost of healthcare.

A few years ago, my aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer. My mother and I both tried to schedule mammograms for ourselves, just to be on the safe side. Wait time? 7 months.

My uncle was diagnosed with skin cancer 6 years ago, after 12 doctors told him nothing was wrong with him. TWELVE! Finally, lucky number 13 got his head out of his *** and did a *** biopsy. By that time, my uncle was in stage 4, and basically was told to start making funeral arrangements. And he was INSURED! (He survived, but died a few months ago of a staph infection because his immune system was too compromised from the chemotherapy to fight it off with the help of antibiotics)

So, this system is really working? Really? Could've fooled me.

Where do you live that you gotta wait 7 months?

and changing the system wont teach a doctor how to look for skin cancer.

so if/when we "fix" the health care system and it works perfectly and people live 30 years longer, then what do we do? move retirement 30 years down the road, people start dieing from starvation b/c the world population is out of control due to the 30 extra years everyone lives?

i dont have much of a political view on it b/c well im more of an anti-government and to each his own or survival of the fittest type of person.

Al Gore says we wont live the long lols =]
I'd say war over food and water.

politics shmolitics thing is you cant live with it but you cant live without it
basic rule is you need ppl to govern. only problem is greediness causes more laws to be made to make more money. to pay the ppl making the laws. if you dont make new laws someones out of a job lmao

ps key word here is money

Yes key word , MONEY! Sadly , call it what you want , at the root of it all ; every system of government is designed to make money for the people in power. Whether its a select few or disguised as to provide for the many .

yeah that's when, for the ppl go out the window. all starts like the boston tea party and ends with a bang

If you change it to Obama's plan, you wouldn't have doctors even bother to look for it. They wouldn't have to give you the best service because there is no incentive to do so.



We have a surplus on Agriculture in America, in case you never realized.

We pay farmers to destroy their crops to keep prices from deflating and destroying the delicate balance of supply/demand into a point where farmers wouldn't be able to substain their lives. This system is economically sound as is, but we could just ship the extra produce to another country if the government really wanted to, its just that they don't want to deal with the costs associated with shipping millions of pounds of veggies.



Hmm, homeless shelters, job programs for the homeless, Social Security for the jobless, and unemployment checks for those who seek jobs, but can't find any. We really treat them like lepers, don't we?



We are a christian nation? I thought it was illegal for any government agency in the United States of America to have "God" in any form of legislation. Only way you might think we are a "christian" nation would be by our 1 dollar bills, which have not been changed yet to disclude "Under God" yet.

We even take out our own Pledge of Allegiance out of our schools because it contains "Under God" in it. Still think we are a christian nation?

Just because we have a freedom of religion, and that about 65% of the nation's population is considered "christian" doesn't make this a christian nation.

Lets see here. That was true about 20 years ago. Today, however, that has changed in not only our medical practices, but in the general population's way of thinking. Its all about preventing diseases, not treating diseases.



I already proved that.



Wait, we are showing superiority towards the poor? Since the poor has more benifits than me, who comes from a middle-income family. Minority groups get more scholarships for college than me. Minority groups get more food stamps than me. Minority groups get a better chance for help than me.

Want to know why they are still suffering? Its because they don't put any effort to receive that help. Those that put in that effort are able to live on T-bone steaks and lobsters every night while I'm stuck with good old hambergers and hotdogs instead (which doesn't matter to me, I like hambergers)



If nukes never existed, we would have still won World War II. It was going in our favor before Hiroshima and Nakasaki. We already were taking over the Ryushuus before the plan to use the nukes to end the war happened. Hell, Germany and Italy already surrendered at that time also, it was Japan vs World at that point. We used the nukes just to end the war quickly and save more lives than if the war was prolonged for a couple of more years. It did cost the lives of many Japanese citizens, but it did save the lives of many of the other countries' citizens if you think about it, and possibly even more Japanese citizens if we ever had to invade Japan's mainland.



Why suceed? To make it better for your children. You seek a life surrounded with material excess so you won't have to have your children live in hardships. Not really understanding the last half of the quote though. Half-hearted faith, but how can it be half-hearted? Your faith is your faith, not anyone else's. If your faith is full-hearted to you, but half-hearted to someone else, who's to say that they are right? They might have different standards than you.

Lets see, the people in power in the United States of America?

It would be the citizens, not the government, who has the power in the USA.

It would be the citizens, not the companies, who have the power in the USA.

You will disbelieve me, but if you look at any and all laws in the United States of America, you will see that its the citizens who have the final say in anything.

If the companies thrive, then its the people who thrive with it. Common Capitialist ideas show that the more money you pump into the economy, the more wealth is created for that society. Best way to create money for the economy is to create wealth for the society. If you just start with a dollar and pump it into the economy, it will create 2 dollars for the society, which in turn pumps 4 dollars into the economy, and it creates 8 dollars into society. This circle idea was thought up back in 1776, during the idea of capitalism at its primal stages.

Quick question though Dabouncer, what country do you live in, and what type of society is it?

lol i have lived here since day one and no if you understood the word congress you would know its not the citizens who have the final say.

When they start being cocky jerks you kick them out =]

whats that old school house rock theme, if you have been here long enough you will know it lol

sry lu i am not trying to be cocky mabe it just came out that way

Not calling you cocky =x
I mean when they suck so bad you are supposed to kick them out of office.

I have been here all of my life, except the 9 months I lived in Japan.

I know for a FACT that its the people, not the government, that has the final say in anything.

Look at last year's election.

People didn't like Bush's policies, so they elected nothing but Democrats for this term.

In the end, its the people who deside what's the next 4 year's worth of policies are, not the government.

Korpg I understand that you and I have different views. You seem to maintain that no one would do anything without there being a monetary reward involved. I believe that it is possible to motivate people without there being a monetary reward involved. However, neither of these believes are very central to the debate about health care reform. Any system that will be created will still pay the workers. The only difference is that instead of stakeholders or owners becoming rich off of a basic human right, we will charge only what is needed to keep providing the service.

The Capitalistic system works great, as long as the customer has freedom to choose. In our current health care system, the customers have no choice at all. There are usually a handful of insurance companies you can pick from; I haven't seen one that won't discriminate based on preexisting conditions. The customer doesn't have the freedom to refrain from purchasing health care, because not having health care is even more cost prohibitive.

The basic idea of a capitalistic system is companies compete based on price and service, and the customers being rational citizens pick the company that provides the best service at the lowest cost. However, when the customer's choice is bankruptcy or insurance that can drop you at a moments notice, can you really claim that it is a capitalistic system?

This is not even close to the government completely operating everyone's healthcare. It is the addition of one insurance company that isn't a privatized one. If you believe your own arguments in that it will not provide as good of service as those that are privatized, then there is no way they could compete well enough to knock other private companies out of that market.

Take a look at the postal service. UPS and FedEx are doing just fine despite USPS being in the ring. The notion that the government is "taking over" everyone's healthcare is an exaggeration that stems from baseless fear.



Wait. Did you just say that "Obama's plan" (i.e., a public option of health insurance operated by the government) is not going to send people to doctors/nurse practitioners for examinations or care? You think that the addition of one insurance option out of many existing ones is going to eradicate one of its economy's highest prestige/highest SES professions?

You're saying that by having a public option available that doctors won't exist anymore? Even though that doesn't happen in any similar country? "Socialist" countries at that?

Can anyone tell me the answer to how you cover an extra 40million people with no new doctors?

Are you assuming these 40 million people never went to a doctor when they became sick?

They instead went to the Emergency room to take care of their minor sicknesses. The 40 million who have no insurance, how do they "pay" for their sickness? They go to the county emergency rooms and have the county pick up their tab.

How do I know this? I got bitten by a rattlesnake and we didn't have any poison extracting tools on hand. I was near the hospital, so we went there. I was literally dying but I had to wait in line because 5 people were in front of me with colds. My father, being a brilliant man, left me in the hospital, went to Walmart down the street, got a poison extracting kit, came back, and got most of the poison out so I could survive long enough for the doctor to see me. This was just with Medicaid, just think how often this will be when this bill gets put into place.

Protip: If you get bitten by anything poisonous, don't run around, move as little as possible to slow down the poison alot. Thats what saved my life, knowing that.



A) You might motivate a very few people into doing something without money, but we aren't talking about 100 people nationwide, we are talking about the full population here. You want everyone to work for nothing, and I can tell you right now, its not going to happen.

B) Whats keeping people from buying healthcare now? If you even think about it, health insurance is not that expensive. Companies denying you for a pre-existing condition? No, they won't deny you for that, they just won't pay for that pre-existing condition. Read the insurance policies closely.

You will use that example of that Texas woman getting dropped from her insurance because she didn't show she went had acne treatment, but she was ASKED beforehand to state ALL of her doctor's visits, including that. That was a breach of contract on HER part, and it is HER fault, not the company's. The company has to keep everyone honest, so they can afford to give people as low as possible premiums without getting screwed by everybody out there. You might see it as the company is out to screw you, but in the companies' eyes, its you who is out to screw them. Which, in both viewpoints, is correct and incorrect.



You say that the healthcare system gives you no choice, but you can choose between A and B. Your statements are false because you contradticted yourself, again. Again, companies don't deny you for pre-exisiting conditions, they just won't pay for it. Think of it this way, you get in a wreck and totaled your car. You don't have any car insurance. Would you get car insurance now and have them pay for your car? You are saying yes they should because its the "humanitarian" way to do things. You will argue that there is a difference between human lives and vehichles, but guess what, its the same *** concept. Think these things through before you take the "humanitarian" road.



Customers are human, and I beleive that the human thinking is unrational until you get a college degree. Get a college degree, or teach University level Philosophy in High School, and then, you will become a rational human being.

Now, to your question at hand: Are those the 2 only choices? I'm pretty sure that the number of people who get "get dropped at a moment's notice" ranges about 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of the total consummer base. Thats .000001% of the consummer base. And you know what, I'm very sure that out of that .000001%, 99% of that is somebody trying to screw the company over. Is that perfect? No, that 1% that the company makes the mistake from, thats what gets reported to the media and made a big deal out of. The company makes a mistake from .00000001% of their entire consummer base, then thats a very good company. It just sucks if you are that .00000001%

Boy: Woof! You sure gotta climb a lot of steps to get to this Capitol Building here in Washington. But I wonder who that sad little scrap of paper is?

I'm just a bill.
Yes, I'm only a bill.
And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill.
Well, it's a long, long journey
To the capital city.
It's a long, long wait
While I'm sitting in committee,
But I know I'll be a law someday
At least I hope and pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.

Boy: Gee, Bill, you certainly have a lot of patience and courage.

Bill: Well I got this far. When I started, I wasn't even a bill, I was just an idea. Some folks back home decided they wanted a law passed, so they called their local Congressman and he said, "You're right, there oughta be a law." Then he sat down and wrote me out and introduced me to Congress. And I became a bill, and I'll remain a bill until they decide to make me a law.

I'm just a bill
Yes I'm only a bill,
And I got as far as Capitol Hill.
Well, now I'm stuck in committee
And I'll sit here and wait
While a few key Congressmen discuss and debate
Whether they should let me be a law.
How I hope and pray that they will,
But today I am still just a bill.

Boy: Listen to those congressmen arguing! Is all that discussion and debate about you?

Bill: Yeah, I'm one of the lucky ones. Most bills never even get this far. I hope they decide to report on me favourably, otherwise I may die.

Boy: Die?

Bill: Yeah, die in committee. Oooh, but it looks like I'm gonna live! Now I go to the House of Representatives, and they vote on me.

Boy: If they vote yes, what happens?

Bill: Then I go to the Senate and the whole thing starts all over again.

Boy: Oh no!

Bill: Oh yes!

I'm just a bill
Yes, I'm only a bill
And if they vote for me on Capitol Hill
Well, then I'm off to the White House
Where I'll wait in a line
With a lot of other bills
For the president to sign
And if he signs me, then I'll be a law.
How I hope and pray that he will,
But today I am still just a bill.

Boy: You mean even if the whole Congress says you should be a law, the president can still say no?

Bill: Yes, that's called a veto. If the President vetoes me, I have to go back to Congress and they vote on me again, and by that time you're so old...

Boy: By that time it's very unlikely that you'll become a law. It's not easy to become a law, is it?

Bill: No!

But how I hope and I pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.

Congressman: He signed you, Bill! Now you're a law!

Bill: Oh yes!!!

At the time, we both lived in New Jersey.



I was pointing out that the system didn't work in his case. I'm sure there's other cases, as well, but this system simply did not work.



This is exactly the type of situation I mentioned a few posts before yours. Funny you failed to mention it, yet we seem to agree that uninsured people using emergency rooms for doctors visits = people with real emergencies are getting sicker/dying.

I missed it, sorry.

And these emergency rooms don't have doctors?



That sounds more like a mistake in your hospital's prioritization and shouldn't be considered the law of the land. Every hospital across the country varies to an extent in how they expedite their services.

In addition, there are some who enjoy their medicare and consider it to be a great means of access for their services. In one of his town hall addresses Obama tells how he received a letter from a woman who was livid about the government "running" health care. She was very much against it, and then ended her rant with "...and don't you touch my medicare." (Link)

I'm not saying that it is the best, and in that same address Obama himself discusses how they plan to change some of the program's inefficiencies. The most notable one being a 700 billion dollar give-away to privatized insurance companies. There really is a good amount of primary source information that you can get by following these town hall meetings.



He isn't saying that "everyone should work for nothing." That's an over-generalization concocted to exaggerate what Blindphleb was trying to say. He started with his personal stories of going above his job description in a work environment. This was to serve only as an example that money does not need to be the primary reward in order for a good deed to be done. It was not to showcase how "everyone should do it."

Another example could have easily been the fact that people still become teachers despite money not being great. Ask anyone of them and they'll most likely tell you that it's the job itself they desire, not the paycheck.

I don't think anyone here is arguing you need money as an incentive to do erect a job. That argument seems to have been pulled from an orifice rather than someone's post. Money can still be involved with a change in what incentives are put in place.



That's your argument? Health insurance isn't that expensive? All of the economists have it wrong? Employers just don't provide this "cheap" health insurance because they want to maximize profit? If what you say is true it wouldn't have been a focal point for the elections or Obama's first term. You offer not sources for your statements and instead tell us to go read some insurance policies closely. Which ones even? Could you be anymore vague?

I don't know how you can seriously argue that insurance isn't expensive and won't continue to increase in cost without intervention. Both parties agree things need to be done, and a compilation of facts disagree with your assertions.

Also, I won't disclose my parents annual income, but I will say that it is six digits and they're paying approximately 23,000 a year just on health insurance.



It doesn't take a degree to realize that health insurance is expensive. Sometimes too expensive to own.

It is also common logic to understand that it is wrong to pay into a privatized insurance pool while healthy only to be dropped from that when illness begets you.



Amazing. I want to go out and get my college degree now so I can do math just like this.

I can not resist any longer!!!! Korpg is a damn brainwashed tool........

well...you are a brain washed tool! ... from the left!

Lol Korpg thinks he has been to college .

if he went to college he'd be more liberal!

What's gonna stop a company (who already provides Healthcare to it's employees) from terminating it's current healthcare plan and telling all it's employess to get the public healthcare option.

If they offer tax incentives to companies (to provide healthcare to employees), but those incentives are less than the money saved by dropping everybody, the companies will stop providing healthcare. Their employees will still have healthcare (Public healthcare) and the companies will save money.