Reisenjima T4s

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Reisenjima T4s
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-05-02 12:17:01  
I just don't understand why having SMN be the go to DD for melee damage endgame zergs is so terrible, and none of the arguments put forth here have come close to convincing me.

The job doesn't have a high barrier to entry, as others have pointed out, and there is no danger of it becoming the only job for all content because its DPS is pretty bad outside of conduit.

I am not crying for the melees who don't get invited to meleeburn Schah, or Schah for not getting to pop it's adds. Melees have plenty of situations where they are better than SMN in the current game and we circumvent/negate mob mechanics all the time.

I also don't weep for the Aeonic weapons that people make with SMN, because Aeonic weapons don't care and it only makes the random pickup players stronger. If people were really so dedicated to playing the game on hard mode then they would all handicap themselves when doing T4 NMs instead of burning through with the most successful strategy just as people on your servers are apparently doing with SMN now.

This kind of steals Ranger's hypothetical niche, but Ranger doesn't need to rely on SP abilities so it still has applications (or doesn't, if you play on the vanilla client and thus do terrible DPS with it.)




I just don't see who gets hurt, besides an apparently considerable set of butts.
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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-05-02 12:22:18  
If they can make it work with gimp gear, good on them.

Personally I really don't see it, myself. I know pretty well from experience what sort of numbers a Was SMN is going to put out on T4 level-content, and the truth of the matter is they'll be lucky to post a 20k average Volt Strike under AF/AC and whole lot lower without both SP's in play.

That doesn't fit my definition of nerf-inducing overpoweredness.
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-05-02 12:23:16  
Stiltz said: »
Quote:
lol indeed, blu's tp set alone costs over double everything needed for perfect conduit zerg.. a budget smn(still good enough for 4 smn run geo) needs under 100m in gear and capped JP

Show me the 500 people rushing to spend 300m and cap JPs on summoner and I'll show you immediate change overnight.

If summoners are cheesing adds with AC for a single fight that's causing this degree of butt angst, then alter the add's resistance to lightning damage instead of entirely shitting up another class. Not really rocket science, folks.


Although my schah video caused a bunch of pissbabies, it isn't the only t4 we completely shut down. Smn is king ***against all t4s in some form and all but 2 can be af/ac burned. and even then oncy is such a pushover to bp damage and dual types that a smn can solo dps a group of 6. We do however, like schah, completely or partially mitigate gimmicks in at least 3 other fights. albumen, vinipata, and teles. We also greatly speed up zerde.
 Asura.Boogerballs
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By Asura.Boogerballs 2017-05-02 12:26:27  
all 7 can be conduit burned. just need to be smart.
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By ocean 2017-05-02 12:31:03  
ocean said: »
Question for Inx: For discussions sake let's say amnesia, para, ect were not an issue. You have 3 super geared wars, sams or any other DD that are fully buffed on schah, albumen or any other relevant T4 against 3 smn with aftermath, beast & drachen. Both get frailty and torpor. In your opinion who wins the parse before said mob dies? And will the parse be close?

Ragnarok.Inx said: »
It all depends how long the fight lasts.

The question is what are those SMN parsing once they are back to a 22 second minimum delay between BP's? Which let's face it, is the "desired" result of neutering AC.


Most SP's/buffs/debuffs last much longer than 30 seconds, and in most circumstances whether you kill in 30 seconds or 1 minute or 2 mins isn't going to make any difference.

Extending/shrinking the duration of the parse/battle can manipulate the answer any way you want.

I feel like your understanding of the power/effectiveness of Astral Conduit/Astral Flow is lacking. Without sounding condescending, the answer isn't "it depends how long the fight lasts" because the mob (any NM in the game) is dead once conduit has ended. You can take 3vs3 or 10vs10 or really 18vs10 and have the same result. That's why AC is broken. If said NM was still alive once conduit has ended then you have what some here are arguing; a fair system that would not require a nerf. Hope this helps!
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 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-05-02 12:38:30  
Stiltz said: »
- An alliance of Dark Knights can hit Souleater and trash AV.
Solution: Ruin Dark Knights for the next ten years.
Um, what? Their solution was to give AV Souleater resistance, which barely impacted Dark Knights outside of that one fight, nor has Dark Knight been "ruined" since then either, with the job ranging from mediocre to excellent.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-02 12:44:33  
Going back to something I said half jokingly, seems like a far less complicated solution to all this complaining would be to nerf RUN's SP so avatars would still have to contend with a mob that can stick debuffs.
Not that I have any power to make any changes at all.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-02 12:46:40  
30 seconds of relative safety is nowhere near overpowered and pretty great for run to have

killing the hardest mobs in the game in 30 seconds is very overpowered and not integral to smns function

why is this so hard for some people to understand
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-02 12:48:50  
12 hours at work - cliff notes of last 5 pages please, someone.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-02 12:50:45  
same as the 5 pages before that

non-SMNs: NERF PLZ
SMNs: PLZ NO
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-02 12:53:46  
Well the general complaint is that SMN can kill the hardest mobs in the game with too much safety.
So, nerf RUN and it is a global adjustment to all strategies, regardless of DD-type. Seems more balanced to me.
 Asura.Boogerballs
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By Asura.Boogerballs 2017-05-02 12:55:06  
pretty much the people that can kill are killing while the people that cant are bitching
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-02 12:55:26  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
same as the 5 pages before that

non-SMNs: NERF PLZ
SMNs: PLZ NO

I'm 1 week away from Nirvana. If they nerf SMN I won't give 2 shits. At this point in the game if people have put all their hopes into 1 job, ..yeah well... That's not the game we all know.
SE will nerf and buff jobs.. the only constant is change. Get ahead of it if you're competitive and level some other jobs. Diversify yourselves.
 Bahamut.Boogerballs
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By Bahamut.Boogerballs 2017-05-02 12:57:00  
Blazed1979 said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
same as the 5 pages before that

non-SMNs: NERF PLZ
SMNs: PLZ NO

I'm 1 week away from Nirvana. If they nerf SMN I won't give 2 shits. At this point in the game if people have put all their hopes into 1 job, ..yeah well... That's not the game we all know.
SE will nerf and buff jobs.. the only constant is change. Get ahead of it if you're competitive and level some other jobs. Diversify yourselves.

smartest post in this entire thread. i approve
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-02 12:57:15  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
So, nerf RUN and it is a global adjustment to all strategies, regardless of DD-type. Seems more balanced to me.
fallacy alert! fallacy alert!
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-02 12:59:26  
What is the fallacy? If this were done, SMNs still wanting to use their SP to kill these mobs would have to get really creative/lucky right? So no more easy mode right?

Please elaborate.
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-05-02 13:01:42  
Asura.Boogerballs said: »
pretty much the people that can kill are killing while the people that cant are bitching


P.much.


There are a couple nerf-banshees who want the earrh salted, aeonics taken and 'exploiters' publically flogged.

Nobody really wants to address core issues to the game that make this setup extra viable either. ***like hp scaling, lack of mob gimmicks and the like.
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-02 13:02:24  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I just don't understand why having SMN be the go to DD for melee damage endgame zergs is so terrible, and none of the arguments put forth here have come close to convincing me.

The job doesn't have a high barrier to entry, as others have pointed out, and there is no danger of it becoming the only job for all content because its DPS is pretty bad outside of conduit.

I am not crying for the melees who don't get invited to meleeburn Schah, or Schah for not getting to pop it's adds. Melees have plenty of situations where they are better than SMN in the current game and we circumvent/negate mob mechanics all the time.

I also don't weep for the Aeonic weapons that people make with SMN, because Aeonic weapons don't care and it only makes the random pickup players stronger. If people were really so dedicated to playing the game on hard mode then they would all handicap themselves when doing T4 NMs instead of burning through with the most successful strategy just as people on your servers are apparently doing with SMN now.

This kind of steals Ranger's hypothetical niche, but Ranger doesn't need to rely on SP abilities so it still has applications (or doesn't, if you play on the vanilla client and thus do terrible DPS with it.)




I just don't see who gets hurt, besides an apparently considerable set of butts.
I've rarely ever read anything from you that wasn't sound, solid and rationale.
This is the first time I find myself disagreeing with you.

I'm not going to debate you though, I think everyone in this thread has already made solid counter-arguments to yours. If you're not convinced at this point, I guess the outcomes that SE enforce will prove our argument right - because they recognized the problem and have enough experience to see where the train is heading - choo choo I'm finishing my nirvana (a melee hardcore guy that hates mage jobs is pimping out SMN. I've resisted that since 2005)
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-02 13:03:55  
i've been able to multibox everything since before aeonic mercs were even a thing, i have 4 HQ smns(1 nirvana, 3 with alex turned in and most of requirements done), and i can easily kill all with or without them

it's not anything emotional, it's just easy to recognize that when you compare the setups the smn one is extremely unbalanced..
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-02 13:04:32  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
What is the fallacy? If this were done, SMNs still wanting to use their SP to kill these mobs would have to get really creative/lucky right? So no more easy mode right?

Please elaborate.
here are two kills.
One with a RUN tank + SMN zerg
One with 2x WARs tanking + SMN Zerg.
Nerfing RUN will do nothing.
YouTube Video Placeholder
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-02 13:05:44  
Taking away RUN's SP increases the gear requirement. SMN's can still use moneta's tonic to block player amnesia and quickly resummon if pet is amnesiaed. It would potentially reduce pacts significantly, but the strategy is still so overpowered it would only cost wins for the weakest groups.
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-05-02 13:07:16  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
What is the fallacy? If this were done, SMNs still wanting to use their SP to kill these mobs would have to get really creative/lucky right? So no more easy mode right?

Please elaborate.

At worst it pushes some fights like teles and schah into 'not 100% win' situations. At best it just means bringing another geo or rdm to drop macc anyway.
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-05-02 13:07:50  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
What is the fallacy? If this were done, SMNs still wanting to use their SP to kill these mobs would have to get really creative/lucky right? So no more easy mode right?

Please elaborate.
Yes, while impacting every other non-overpowered strat that uses a RUN as well. The problem is with SMN, not RUN.
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-02 13:10:49  
People are not getting it.
With a SMN zerg you dont even need a tank.
You don't need anything but any DPS that can survive the duration of conduit AC spam and hold hate for that duration.
That means you can, and we have, used anything that can spike hate and hold the mob's attention for a few seconds.

I find it ironic you wanted to nerf RUN instead of SMN, as Conduit AC zerg eliminates the need for tanks all together most of the time.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-02 13:13:09  
Ah, so the reason to not nerf RUN is because "we all use that." Got it.

If you can't be satisfied with just making it so SMN can't "100% win," then I don't think we have anything to talk about.

Also, in that video, Primex's WS numbers looked comparable to what the SMNs were dishing out. And his TP gain was pretty fast. I'm glad to see some SMNs and WARs working together in harmony.

Move on people...
 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-05-02 13:17:01  
ocean said: »
I feel like your understanding of the power/effectiveness of Astral Conduit/Astral Flow is lacking. Without sounding condescending, the answer isn't "it depends how long the fight lasts" because the mob (any NM in the game) is dead once conduit has ended. You can take 3vs3 or 10vs10 or really 18vs10 and have the same result. That's why AC is broken. If said NM was still alive once conduit has ended then you have what some here are arguing; a fair system that would not require a nerf. Hope this helps!

HP on T4's is dependent on the number of participants, so going with a full alliance is whole different experience than going with 6 plus x number of outside buffers.

The assumed "flaw" is that any given group will be able to field a sufficient number of SMN to kill within 30 secs. This is not practical and absolutely not a certainty.

Moreover its far from being a necessity as there exists plenty of safer and more reliable ways to get a win on these fights, because when all's said and done the real linchpin of this strategy is having the ability for the avatars to avoid being amnesiad/stoned etc forcing the SMN to lose a huge chunk of AC's duration dismissing, resummoning and sending their pets in again.

Nerf Odyllic, and the "problem" goes away. Irrespective of numbers of SMN and party size.

But funnily enough, I don't see anyone arguing for that particular approach.
 Ragnarok.Primex
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By Ragnarok.Primex 2017-05-02 13:17:47  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Also, in that video, Primex's WS numbers looked comparable to what the SMNs were dishing out. And his TP gain was pretty fast. I'm glad to see some SMNs and WARs working together in harmony.
Yeah. I think you missed the point.
My war is worth about 2 billion gil.
The best SMN in that pt was worth about 600m.
WAR during MS, fully buffed is one of the most powerful hitters in game. If you saw the end of the video you would see I called up the parse results. My, and Vidiho's WARs, haven't been outparsed that badly.. EVER.
There's no damn comparison. we, together, did less than the weakest SMN in the pt.

And we knew we would. We were glorified tanks. More dmg output than a RUN with lionheart, but nothing even close to a pretty mundane smn. No offense.
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-05-02 13:24:30  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Ah, so the reason to not nerf RUN is because "we all use that." Got it.
No, the reason to not nerf RUN is that it's ONLY a problem with grouped with SMNs, and SMNs are a problem even without it.

Using an arbitrary scale for example's sake, if you have 3 strategies that are at 5 in efficiency, and 1 strategy at a 15, why the hell would you nerf all strategies by 1-3 instead of nerfing the 15 by 10?
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-02 13:26:20  
No offense taken, Primex. I'm of the opinion no job should be essential, so I think it is cool you can hold it and kill it without a tank.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-02 13:26:47  
Blazed1979 said: »
12 hours at work - cliff notes of last 5 pages please, someone.

Those benefiting from SMN AC zerg easy wins trying to argue how they aren't using an exploit and there is no reason for SE to fix it. Then getting super emo because others shoot gaping holes in their rationale.

That's pretty much it. It's the RNG, DRK and BST debate, hell even the alex duping debate all over again. Those exploiting salvage for alex said the exact same things these guys are saying.
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