Reisenjima T4s

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Reisenjima T4s
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By fillerbunny9 2017-04-26 13:52:52  
nah,they're saying that Nirvana doesn't need AG to be functional, and when countered with Yagrush and Burtgang, dodged with lrn2read nub
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 Bismarck.Nickeny
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2017-04-26 13:53:33  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
I think the point he was making is that every Mythic costs exactly the same. Your statement makes no sense.

Smn mythic is the best rema atm... even non ag beats the rest...

Because..

Smn is balance asf brah no nerf plzzzz

(Sarcasm)
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-04-26 14:12:37  
Just going to say this, although I think I'm pretty alone in thus belief -

I personally have always wanted a Vana'diel where different NMs demand different setups. I thought/hoped that the HELM in reisen would accomplish this, but meh. I really wanted an Aeonic style quest where one NM was only beatable via SC-burst, One ranged, One you had to old style zerg, one for pets, one where white damage was only acceptable, etc. Would take advantage of the greatest unique feature that FFXI had to offer - the ability to change jobs. It would force variety in the style of fights, and require that shells take care of all their members and their "favorite" jobs.

But alas I'm not sure with the power level of many jobs if such a battle design would honestly last. This phenomenon isn't totally SE's fault, as has been mentioned. ALL the T4s/HELM can be beaten without resorting to gimmicks, but the players either not able to beat it with traditional methods or choose not to because of ease have moved to what they view to be the most efficient for them.

The only mob that I've beaten in a 100% SMN strat was Ru'Ann Seiryu for our first few times because of its crazy hate. After 7 Aeonic rotations I feel confident that no group needs to resort to this if they don't want to. Understanding of the fights, good communication, and not taking an army of leeches on your first few attempts are more important than anything. And if your group has all of this down and still can't, then improve your toon. You don't have to give up that SAM you love for a half assed SMN- insert bandwagon du jour.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-04-26 14:20:56  
4/5 Apogee +1
Nirvana
Convoker's Doublet +2 (34/50 to +3)
All the other AF/Relic/Empyrean +1
Saving up to buy a Stikini +1 right now
Job Master

I use SMN to slowly solo Omen cards and have used it three times in melee zergs as a member of the outside party. I also used it in the Soulflayer Ambuscade.

I have better job options for other situations.





#buffSMN
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 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-26 14:35:16  
fillerbunny9 said: »
nah,they're saying that Nirvana doesn't need AG to be functional, and when countered with Yagrush and Burtgang, dodged with lrn2read nub
More like I missed that part. And also silly false equivalences.

Burtgang doesn't make PLD superior than RUN in every conceivable way.

Yagrush doesn't make WHM the best healer. It certainly helps, but there's a boatload of reasons for that.

SMN's best weapon is 100m cheaper than the functional melee counterparts. And even then, SMNs 4.7m JSE weapon performs on par or better than top end melee counterparts.
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By Asura.Xijaah 2017-04-26 14:42:32  
Sylph.Cherche said: »
SMNs 4.7m JSE weapon performs on par or better than top end melee counterparts.
you must have partied with some lousy melees, if that's what you really think.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-04-26 14:45:13  
I haven't been outparsing melee by dramatic amounts over the whole fight (although I'm sure I did during conduit) and I doubt I could do it very consistently. Losing your avatar (or it getting Amnesia'd) during Conduit dramatically impacts SMN's DPS for that entire fight. It's not like carols work on avatars.

I'd say SMN is the easiest job for a very narrow use case that you guys just happen to care a lot about.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-26 15:28:20  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
You don't have to give up that SAM you love for a half assed SMN- insert bandwagon du jour.

The problem is that LS's don't see it this way. From the leadership point of view they want to kill the NM's in the most guaranteed way possible, which usually involves using the simplest method possible. They first seek to minimize chance of failure, then seek to minimize time spent on each stage of the content. Typically different strategies favor different sides of this. When one strategy is the safest, the fastest and the simplest for most "difficult" content, then it breaks game balance at the meta level. It's far easier to just tell everyone to "come SMN or a job supporting SMN" and AC burn through the T4 content then to actually fight them.

Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I haven't been outparsing melee by dramatic amounts over the whole fight (although I'm sure I did during conduit) and I doubt I could do it very consistently. Losing your avatar (or it getting Amnesia'd) during Conduit dramatically impacts SMN's DPS for that entire fight. It's not like carols work on avatars.

RUN SP's exist. RUN's SP completely floors the targets magic accuracy, doesn't last long but during that time the target has the offensive punch of a baby. The duration just happens to lineup really well with SMN's AC duration and is critical to AC zerging. Outside of AC zerging the RUN's SP is really useful for preventing something bad from happening, or if that something did happen to buy time to quickly prevent a wipe. Back when we used MB strat on Tellos there was a fight where it reset my hate and went after the mages, I hit my SP right before it did Clarch Call in hit everyone for pitiful damage while also giving me a huge hate boost to pull it back into position. I've used it to prevent getting charmed or doomed. It's not guaranteed because the NM can always "roll a natural 20", which is why a pet getting amnesia during AC is just really bad luck.

Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I'd say SMN is the easiest job for a very narrow use case that you guys just happen to care a lot about.

It's being used for virtually all content now. You can sit in town and see the yell spam as people are looking for Tanks, GEO's and master SMN's to kill everything from T4's to T1's, yes T1's. They using it for anything and everything because it's been perceived as "extremely easy and powerful".
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 15:34:00  
Nerf RUN?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-04-26 15:34:35  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Nerf RUN?
Nerf DRG. That wyvern is too powerful.
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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-04-26 15:42:59  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I haven't been outparsing melee by dramatic amounts over the whole fight (although I'm sure I did during conduit) and I doubt I could do it very consistently. Losing your avatar (or it getting Amnesia'd) during Conduit dramatically impacts SMN's DPS for that entire fight. It's not like carols work on avatars.

This is the whole argument in a nutshell. People who don't play the job telling those who do have actual experience with it how overpowered they are because of what they've heard or seen on Youtube.

Some of the more extreme claims about performance levelled in this thread go way beyond hyperbole, and yet we're supposed to treat their anecdotal observations about what a dire and widespread trend it is as credible?
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 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-26 16:16:46  
Asura.Xijaah said: »
Sylph.Cherche said: »
SMNs 4.7m JSE weapon performs on par or better than top end melee counterparts.
you must have partied with some lousy melees, if that's what you really think.
I'm not sure what my personal thoughts have to do with math, but sure.
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By clearlyamule 2017-04-26 17:31:43  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Nerf RUN?
Nerf DRG. That wyvern is too powerful.
It is. All that innate DT and ability to transfer some buffs and easy heals is pretty OP. If I can only teach it provoke I'd make one tank
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-04-26 17:36:55  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
4/5 Apogee +1
Nirvana
Convoker's Doublet +2 (34/50 to +3)
All the other AF/Relic/Empyrean +1
Saving up to buy a Stikini +1 right now
Job Master

I use SMN to slowly solo Omen cards and have used it three times in melee zergs as a member of the outside party. I also used it in the Soulflayer Ambuscade.

I have better job options for other situations.





#buffSMN


Love this post. Points out the severe fact that this issue is mostly player based. Saevel, I agree that it comes down to LS leadership to steer their shells in the directions they want, and for most people that comes down to finding the most efficient way to do things.

it doesn't have to be this way.

We are strong enough on so many jobs now that LS's actually have the freedom to attack many mobs in a multitude of ways. Take it upon yourself, and enjoy the game some more, by finding unique/fun ways to tackle content. Hell, we're not likely getting anything stronger, so why not get creative?

A great comparison is food. You can easily run through McDonald's and get a meal fast. But if you are a true foodie, the process of a good meal is more enjoyable than the sustenance gained from the calories. I say let's stop running through the drive thrus of Vana'diel and sit down, enjoy a good 4 course meal with a nice glass of wine and have some fun in the process.

If your fun is SMN AC, burn away. If you're dying for some Ranged strats, make one. If your best players are heavy DDs, work with it. I honestly guarantee you can find 3 different strategies that all can successfully defeat the toughest things out there right now. And like I said, we're not getting anything tougher any time soon so might as well enjoy the ride- whatever that means for you and your friends.
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By Ruaumoko 2017-04-26 19:04:23  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Nerf RUN?
Nerf DRG. That wyvern is too powerful.
YouTube Video Placeholder


Not being funny or anything, but DRG's can pretty much stun-lock most iLv 119 - 130 content. I've even landed Leg Sweep on some iLv 135 targets.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-04-27 02:07:27  
What makes Leg Sweep any different from all other stunning WSs present in game, I wonder?
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By Perdi 2017-04-27 02:43:20  
It's on a hidden job no one must ever speak of.
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 Odin.Horu
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By Odin.Horu 2017-04-27 05:31:05  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I wish I could get a second person on Lakshmi to level smn so I can burn T4 NMs for mostly mediocre weapons that I don't want. >:-(
oh, oh, when your done with that second person, can you get him to transfer to odin to help out here too? we need a third so we'll be pimped like everyone else
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By Ruaumoko 2017-04-27 08:38:06  
Asura.Sechs said: »
What makes Leg Sweep any different from all other stunning WSs present in game, I wonder?
DRG's on the Flamma set, which packs a nautical load of both Accuracy and Magic Accuracy. Add to this the Trishula and Moonshade's +750 TP Bonus along with DRG's already easy ride to 1500-2000% TP and you've got a really powerful Stun ready in a flash.

WAR's can use the same set to really abuse Full Break on targets, especially those that mass-Erase like the Glassy Thinker.

It might be worth testing this with Tachi: Hobaku, as SAM is on the same set I use for Leg Sweep. It's worth a shot.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-04-27 09:32:43  
Every job gets Aeonic weapon + Moonshade. Then you have Flamma for some (SAM, DRG, WAR, PLD) jobs and Ayanmo for other jobs (RDM, WHM, BLU, RUN)

Stun WS that I can think of:
Shoulder Tackle (MNK, PUP, fomer doesn't have lots of macc gear, latter probably has)
Flat Blade (RDM, BLU, PLD, RUN, WAR)
Tachi: Hobaku (SAM)
Brainshaker (WHM, WAR uh... pretty much every job?)
Leg Sweep (DRG, WAR, SAM)

There probably are others but I can't think of anything else.
RDM in particular got access to a plethora of macc gear.


From the descriptions on BG-Wiki, granted it's pretty old data, it seems to be hinting at Leg Sweep having a stronger built-in stun effect compared to other WS. Wonder if this is true or just a bias from the past.

Also Rua do you happen to know if Macc affects Blade Bash/Weapon Bash/Shield Pash potency/land rate?
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By Ruaumoko 2017-04-27 09:59:32  
As far other WS's I can't help but suspect Leg Sweep is just abnormally strong for a Stun. 14 seconds seems very lengthy, especially given how consistent it is. It could be that Leg Sweep was designed to have a much longer duration by default and that other WS's don't have as long a potential duration.

I'll have a play-around with Sequence & Flat Blade on RDM the next time I do SR, to run the same test.

As for JA Stuns, I'm not sure. I land Weapon Bash's Stun effect nearly all the time on my RUN when I sub DRK, which is often.
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By Fenrir.Sathicus 2017-04-27 10:03:58  
I think the most important question is whether or not the stun effect overwrites itself. That storing TP in order to stun lock ***in SR is pretty dumb. 3-4 Stardivers and it would've died before it could've done anything dangerous anyway and everyone would've been out of there faster.

Obviously all content is not SR so stun can actually be useful, but unless it can overwrite itself, which I doubt it can, I'm kinda ambivalent about the idea.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-04-27 10:09:14  
All content is not SR, but I'm pretty sure Glassy monsters and Caturae are stun immune.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-27 10:17:56  
Leg Sweep seems to have a *** long duration compared to Flat Blade or Tachi: Hobaku. Kind of like Sudden Lunge vs Head Butt.
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By Ruaumoko 2017-04-27 11:10:28  
Fenrir.Sathicus said: »
I think the most important question is whether or not the stun effect overwrites itself. That storing TP in order to stun lock ***in SR is pretty dumb. 3-4 Stardivers and it would've died before it could've done anything dangerous anyway and everyone would've been out of there faster.

Obviously all content is not SR so stun can actually be useful, but unless it can overwrite itself, which I doubt it can, I'm kinda ambivalent about the idea.
Like I said in the video, I made a mistake not burning TP as soon as I had it. I was holding TP because I was not sure when Stun would wear off and I didn't want it to wear off just as I had used another TP move. The purpose of that run in particular was to test out Leg Sweep in there.

In all likelihood it would be better to use Leg Sweep then use 2-3 WS's before it wears off, then re-apply it.

Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
All content is not SR, but I'm pretty sure Glassy monsters and Caturae are stun immune.
Probably, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Weapon Bash's Stun land on Kin once or twice. I'll take a screenshot the next time I try it.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Leg Sweep seems to have a *** long duration compared to Flat Blade or Tachi: Hobaku. Kind of like Sudden Lunge vs Head Butt.
It does. I tested Flat Blade in the same circumstances, on RDM using a proper set for the Stun effect. Flat Blade's Stun landed, but never lasted more than 3 seconds.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2017-04-27 11:45:20  
Ruaumoko said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
All content is not SR, but I'm pretty sure Glassy monsters and Caturae are stun immune.
Probably, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Weapon Bash's Stun land on Kin once or twice. I'll take a screenshot the next time I try it.
From my experience on SAM/DRK using Stun to build initial hate, I got the 'completely resists" message on all Glassys and Caturae.
Code
20:52:57Llewelyn casts Stun.→The Glassy Craver completely resists the spell.
21:05:38Llewelyn casts Stun.→Kin completely resists the spell.
18:56:27Llewelyn casts Stun.→The Glassy Thinker completely resists the spell.
20:34:45Llewelyn casts Stun.→The Glassy Gorger completely resists the spell.
17:10:35Llewelyn casts Stun.→Fu completely resists the spell.
18:44:07Llewelyn casts Stun.→Kyou completely resists the spell.
19:38:25Llewelyn casts Stun.→Kei completely resists the spell.
18:43:30Llewelyn casts Stun.→Gin completely resists the spell.

So I guess Weapon Bash bypasses immunities if you actually did experience it landing on Kin.

Reisenjima T4s - SMN and Omen edition.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-27 12:00:26  
Umm stun spell would use dark magic skill for it's base magic acc and /DRK would have ***for skill. JAs seem to act more like WS's but without a physical accuracy check. Likely using your iLevel or weapon skill for magic acc.
 Fenrir.Caiir
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By Fenrir.Caiir 2017-04-27 12:03:14  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Umm stun spell would use dark magic skill for it's base magic acc and /DRK would have ***for skill. JAs seem to act more like WS's but without a physical accuracy check. Likely using your iLevel or weapon skill for magic acc.

u do know what "completely resists" means right

means it cant land.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-04-27 12:08:58  
just make their attacks succeptible to the same wall as elemental nuking, as Saevel said. Shouldn't affect 1 SMN using this method, but prevent using this technique in the same way the elemental wall prevents an army of BLMs from one-shotting BCs. If you really are insistent on doing this, I think this may be the only way that doesn't unfairly affect the job itself, or really even this mechanic- it just would put it on the same level as other repeatable high damage attacks of the same ilk- ie Death.
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