Reisenjima T4s

言語: JP EN DE FR
2010-06-21
New Items
users online
フォーラム » FFXI » Escha » Reisenjima T4s
Reisenjima T4s
First Page 2 3 ... 24 25 26 ... 45 46 47
Offline
By Aeyela 2017-04-26 11:03:58  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
It doesn't effect them, so why fix it?

I remember years back, when all those people were banned for salvage duping, reading numerous "Me having an Ares Cuirass doesn't affect you, so why do you care so much?" posts. I mean, them clearing T4s and getting every Aeonic doesn't affect us, so it should stay as it is, right? Progression structure be damned, it's all about the individual. They couldn't see the big picture even if it was painted all over the wall of the Hall of the Gods.
[+]
 Sylph.Cherche
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-26 11:12:22  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
And the SMN strat isn't invalidating any jobs at all.
Just like BST pre-nerf wasn't invalidating any jobs at all.
Most other jobs still perform just fine and can win the same content.
And the jobs that can't clear the content won't suddenly be able to if SMN is nerfed.
Do you take the JSE SMNs capable of outputting at least 16250 DPS on WoC with only a COR and 2 GEO as their support. All of this is done mostly outside of kill range.

Or any other AG RMEA DPS requiring multiple GEO COR and BRD. All of this is done inside kill range

Maybe it's just me, but one of these options is vastly superior to the other options.

P.S. It isn't just me.
[+]
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 11:24:26  
Vast differences between the two scenarios, but I'll bite. Let's talk through it.

The SMN strat requires team work. Buffers and a tank. The mobs could still potentially win, though the purpose of the strat is to bring this probability as close to 0 as possible. But Sleepga, Amnesia, Stunga and user error could still ruin the strat.
I guess I can sum this up as: The players still have to play to win.

They don't press one button and generate an item or a win without facing the content. And they aren't duping wins somehow, either. Hopefully we can all agree on that without debate.

This is how players defeat all content in this game. Like, all of it. There are enough restrictions on players that we largely have to mitigate NM abilities or lose. And the universal way to mitigate NM moves is to kill as rapidly as possible. This is a flaw in design, but it is what it is.
A great example of this is WoC. You can't mitigate Benediction spam, should it select that move repeatedly. You can't counter it, like this is a table top card game. You just have to kill it before it uses it, or in the time between its first use and its next use.

Every strat we use moves toward this direction.
These strats might use RNGs or SPs or certain buffers, always GEOs. They might use multi-boxing. Whatever. These players are still playing. SMN is largely unused outside of this, so, without some buff to ensure SMN is still useful in endgame (outside of buffing--spare me), no, playing it shouldn't be nerfed.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 11:28:08  
Eh, in terms of speed a sportscar is superior to a minivan, but it doesn't invalidate the minivan. They can both get you to where you want to go.
 Odin.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 521
By Odin.Geriond 2017-04-26 11:30:03  
If said sports car is more available, cheaper, faster, safer, and has more storage room than the sportscar, then it certainly does invalidate it to everyone except the few that value asthetics above all else, or to the people in the tiny ranges that they're not available in.

Because they have the option, almost everyone is using almost nothing but SMN Zergs to do stuff like WoC, Kirin, T4 Reisenjima, leaving out every player that doesn't have the 5ish jobs used in that setup.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
Offline
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Rairin
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-04-26 11:31:17  
Odyllic subterfuge reduces the chances of sleepga/stunga/amnesia landing to the magic accuracy minimum. And while they do have to press macros, it's orders of magnitude fewer macros than any other strategy. No other setup can kill during the duration of subterfuge, completely avoiding almost everything that could go wrong.
[+]
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 11:40:48  
See, again, it isn't happening here on Fenrir. So, I don't see this as a global, "Everyone is turning SMN, I think I'm turning into SMN, I really think so," like many of you do.

Have any of you seen Thank You for Smoking? It's a great movie.
Here is a quote from it that might help you better understand my position:

Nick Naylor: OK, let's say that you're defending chocolate, and I'm defending vanilla. Now if I were to say to you: 'Vanilla is the best flavour ice-cream', you'd say...
Joey Naylor: No, chocolate is.
Nick Naylor: Exactly, but you can't win that argument... so, I'll ask you: so you think chocolate is the end all and the all of ice-cream, do you?
Joey Naylor: It's the best ice-cream, I wouldn't order any other.
Nick Naylor: Oh! So it's all chocolate for you is it?
Joey Naylor: Yes, chocolate is all I need.
Nick Naylor: Well, I need more than chocolate, and for that matter I need more than vanilla. I believe that we need freedom. And choice when it comes to our ice-cream, and that Joey Naylor, that is the defintion of liberty.

So, my position is that SMN shouldn't be wiped from the face of endgame. Your position is that all of the other jobs shouldn't be wiped from the face of endgame. If SMN is nerfed, it would most likely be wiped from the face of endgame. Like BST largely has. SE fcks up nerfs. But leaving SMN as it is now still allows for choice--no other jobs need to be wiped from the face of endgame. They are still valid choices that can clear the content in the time allowed.
 Sylph.Cherche
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-26 11:47:09  
They're all just significantly worse at it in every single way.

Gotcha.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2017-04-26 11:50:07  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
See, again, it isn't happening here on Fenrir.
Not yet. Given time without reason to believe that nerfs were incoming, it certainly would. As it is you're talking about a relatively small NA endgame community where most of the top players/leaders don't want to touch this particular strategy for various reasons, but a lot of those reasons would fall away if the expectation of future updates were to disappear.
 Ragnarok.Inx
Offline
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Inxmonk
Posts: 371
By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-04-26 11:51:35  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
See, again, it isn't happening here on Fenrir. So, I don't see this as a global, "Everyone is turning SMN, I think I'm turning into SMN, I really think so," like many of you do.

Not happening on Ragnarok either as far as I can tell.

Hell, despite ostensibly having the means to execute this strategy, we don't because we have reliable alternatives.

And that reliability is what matters above all else. People have been zerging stuff like WoC forever, and its always been a flaky unpredictable approach. Locking SP's is not rocket-science and it removes 99% of the luck aspect from the fight.
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Offline
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Xilk
Posts: 1419
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2017-04-26 11:51:43  
NERF'EM ALL BACK TO 2003!!
[+]
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 11:51:44  
But they aren't?

Not everyone wants to be a SMN. Not everyone has the interest, the inventory or maybe even the time to level/gear it.
If you have an excellent X job, you can use that just fine in beating the content. I know it's possible, and even reliable, to do so. Because I've not beaten a single mob using an army of SMNs.

Band wagoners are going to band wagon. There will always be something believed to be top dog. Playing whack a mole isn't going to fix that. But it will reduce choice.
 Odin.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 521
By Odin.Geriond 2017-04-26 11:54:34  
BST is still valid for many parts of endgame after the nerf (at least theoretically, since SMN burning has pushed everything else off the map). If SMN isn't strong enough to do the same for endgame outside of an obviously broken strat, then it's far better to get that fixed rather than only get used for that one strat to the detriment of 75% of the game's jobs.

The fact that other jobs CAN be used in endgame doesn't matter if they aren't, which is the environment on any server large enough to have a reliable supply of competent summoners. It doesn't matter if a setup is possible if 98% of leaders go "yeah, it's possible, but there's no reason to use it over a faster, easier, and safer strat using SMN zerging", so it never actually gets used. SMN zerging existing is reducing my choice, as I haven't seen a single melee or mage style group for WoC/Kirin/certain T4 Reis in about a month.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 12:00:25  
There will always be that most reliable strat for any particular group. Nothing can stop that. Sounds to me like the problem is your people/server/leader because once SMN is pushed into the ground they will just band wagon to the next thing until that's pushed into the ground too.

Is that your aim?
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 6191
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-04-26 12:01:50  
I wish I could get a second person on Lakshmi to level smn so I can burn T4 NMs for mostly mediocre weapons that I don't want. >:-(
[+]
 Odin.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 521
By Odin.Geriond 2017-04-26 12:06:57  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
There will always be that most reliable strat for any particular group. Nothing can stop that. Sounds to me like the problem is your people/server/leader because once SMN is pushed into the ground they will just band wagon to the next thing until that's pushed into the ground too.

Is that your aim?
Yeah, that won't happen. The player base was BLM SCing, melee killing, and normal pet killing for years, and none of those were "bandwagoned" or so overpowered they needed to be nerfed, unlike SMN zergs. If SMN zerging was nerfed, players would go back to before, where there were multiple viable strats that had actual pros and cons with each other, involving the majority of the jobs. Bandwagoning only happens like that when there's a strat that is superior to every other in nearly every way, and it's never been as bad as SMN zerging is right now.

You're basically going "well, my server isn't like that, so it must not be a problem at all!", which is both shortsighted and selfish. The large servers where this IS happening are the servers where the majority of players play, and where the "SMN effect" has its largest detrimental effects. Just because you have a safe haven where that hasn't happened (yet) doesn't mean it's not a big problem.
Offline
Posts: 4028
By Blazed1979 2017-04-26 12:08:10  
I don't know why the pro-SMNs are up in arms about this. Look people, SMN is going to get nerfed in one way or another. There's not a doubt in me that SE isn't going to allow this to go on forever. Don't need a crystal ball to see this coming. Incoming "but but but why you hate my smn, don't nerf my smn, stupid you, stop talking". If I do or don't want SMN nerfed is irrelevant. Should be to you guys as well. But don't get so caught up in your BS arguments that you start believing it; SMN isn't overpowered. The hell it isn't... Its EXTREMELY overpowered.
And its going to get fixed. Like a *** in heat! its going to get fixed.
[+]
 Bismarck.Nickeny
Offline
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Nickeny
Posts: 2252
By Bismarck.Nickeny 2017-04-26 12:11:01  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Eh, in terms of speed a sportscar is superior to a minivan, but it doesn't invalidate the minivan. They can both get you to where you want to go.


More on the lines of a teleporter vs a sports car

You have to make sure your sports car is finely tuned and able to drive during the weather conditions and still have chance of a act of god...

Where the teleporter just needs to be turned on and set to the destination totally skipping the road and weather conditions...
[+]
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2017-04-26 12:12:55  
It's also worth pointing out that nerfing one problematic aspect of a job gives SE room to round out other parts in a way that might allow it to function more effectively in less centralizing strategies. A lofty goal given SE's checkered history in balancing, but it's a possibility.
 Bismarck.Zuidar
Offline
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Radiuz
Posts: 1273
By Bismarck.Zuidar 2017-04-26 12:23:02  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
It's also worth pointing out that nerfing one problematic aspect of a job gives SE room to round out other parts in a way that might allow it to function more effectively in less centralizing strategies. A lofty goal given SE's checkered history in balancing, but it's a possibility.


Yeah and then some time passes and they forget about it and don't provide any follow up on such things, then they're like "Oh! I apologize that we forgot about that" and then they go "We currently have no plans".

Or maybe when they're nerfing something and also have adjustment plans to compensate around that nerf but then they half-*** it and only nerf it and no adjustments to compensate around it.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-26 12:29:42  
Bismarck.Zuidar said: »
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
It's also worth pointing out that nerfing one problematic aspect of a job gives SE room to round out other parts in a way that might allow it to function more effectively in less centralizing strategies. A lofty goal given SE's checkered history in balancing, but it's a possibility.


Yeah and then some time passes and they forget about it and don't provide any follow up on such things, then it turns into a "We currently have no plans".

That's probably been SE's biggest issue and a result of FFXI development being an "additional duty" instead of a full time position. The development team currently slotted to work on FFXI will have this bad *** idea, start to work towards it, get some solid progress with some promising future results, then people get rotated, other projects happen and the work gets shelved. Six months later someone else rotates in and rather then pickup where the previous people left off they chose to start their own brand new concept and the cycle repeats. The result is that over the years there is a lot of baggage and half finished concepts floating all over FFXI, not just in content but also in job design. Everything from resists, to killer traits to some basic JA and spell functionality.

Take the entire "BST's fight with their pet" concept, that's a good idea but it needs some significant changes to happen. First it needs to become mandatory that all buffs the master receives the pet also receives, meaning songs, rolls, food, protect, haste, everything. Otherwise groups are forced to choose between buffing the master or buffing the pet, and that choice completely breaks the idea of "fighting with your pet" because buffs are limited and need to be chosen carefully.
[+]
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 12:37:55  
100% agree with what you said up above, Saevel.

The reason I bring up that it isn't happening here because that proves it isn't happening everywhere. It is no less short-sighted or selfish than the demand to nerf a job because it isn't a strat you favor.

It's like, I (you) could:
Spend time and gil to level SMN and beat NMs to get Aeonics.
Or I could spend time and gil to level any other viable job, beat NMs and get Aeonics.
Or I could use what I have right now and beat NMs right now and have Aeonics.

In response to the teleporter comment... Players aren't just job changing to SMN in their Mog House, checking their DBoxes and finding Aeonics in there... They gear it, job point it, get access to the fight, pop it and kill it. They are playing the game.

If you don't like your server, change it. You can change it by just not using the SMN strat on the server you are on (you can still win, reliably, I promise) or change your server. Choices! I like them!
 Odin.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 521
By Odin.Geriond 2017-04-26 12:51:02  
Choices are not choices at all if none of the choices are actually feasible, and include negatives that far outstrip the positives. You ignoring the problem just because it doesn't affect you in particular is like people in the western world saying that world hunger is not a real problem just because they could theoretically move somewhere where food is more available. It's not that simple. Similarly, your suggested choices are unfeasible for many.

I can't "not use the SMN" strat because that involves getting other people to do the same thing, despite nearly all of the people who have the know-how and experience to organize melee or mage style groups having moved onto SMN strat already, and few people are going to follow you unless you have experience in organizing it, especially when there's a strat that is better in practically every way.

I can't "change server" because that introduces a bunch of other negatives to me personally that are just as big or bigger, and given that I'd need to find a completely new group to do it with on the new server, likely wouldn't solve the problem in the first place. That's not even counting the fact that given that the strat is so much easier and safer, it's only a matter of time before that new server has the exact same problem.
 Sylph.Cherche
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-26 12:52:28  
4.7 mil for a weapon that'll allow you to perform on the same level as RMEA melee with augmented Reisenjima armor and HQ Abjurations isn't a bad deal.

And hell. If you really want to blow everyone away, Nirvana is 100m cheaper than every other functional Mythic or Empyrean Weapon.
[+]
Offline
By clearlyamule 2017-04-26 13:14:08  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
It's also worth pointing out that nerfing one problematic aspect of a job gives SE room to round out other parts in a way that might allow it to function more effectively in less centralizing strategies. A lofty goal given SE's checkered history in balancing, but it's a possibility.
I'm still waiting for them to do that with some smn nerf a long time ago. When they implemented the dt cap for pets way back when which was definitely very broken and needed of fix it took away the need/reason for making the avatar innate pdt count separate from pet pdt/dt as you can no longer 100% pdt with just ducal guard. It's been brought up a few times too since those 2 changes were done pretty close together but they've continued to ignore it.

Or the removing th3 from bst jugs while promising pet th gear... only to then claim they didn't and then delete the posts they did and the posts of the people saying they did <.<.
Offline
By clearlyamule 2017-04-26 13:17:03  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I wish I could get a second person on Lakshmi to level smn so I can burn T4 NMs for mostly mediocre weapons that I don't want. >:-(
When I was last over there there were tons of smns... selling astral burn slots
[+]
Offline
Posts: 4028
By Blazed1979 2017-04-26 13:25:34  
Kili Kili Mabaho
 Asura.Xijaah
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Xijaah
Posts: 97
By Asura.Xijaah 2017-04-26 13:34:06  
Sylph.Cherche said: »
4.7 mil for a weapon that'll allow you to perform on the same level as RMEA melee with augmented Reisenjima armor and HQ Abjurations isn't a bad deal.

And hell. If you really want to blow everyone away, Nirvana is 100m cheaper than every other functional Mythic or Empyrean Weapon.
Sorry, but this is so wrong.
1) the whole "my job is more expensive so it should outperform yours" it's an old bias. I can recall people complaining against rng nerf, using this very argument, which is clearly wrong when you think of it. More expensive just means more expensive;
2) you're making it sound like that jse is all you need, like SMNs don't need reisenjima gear or hq abjuration (they do);
3) REMAs are good, but they are far from being the best single option for every job. If you still don't believe me, explain why most mages have been using escha/reis staves for most purposes;
4) if nirvana looks so weirdly cheap to you, I'm curious of what you think about yagrush or burtgang.

Ultimately, I'm looking forward to the next month, whatever adjustments are gonna happen, smn related or not, I trust those will put an end to this (mostly uneducated) debate.
[+]
 Sylph.Cherche
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-26 13:44:43  
Sylph.Cherche said: »
4.7 mil for a weapon that'll allow you to perform on the same level as RMEA melee with augmented Reisenjima armor and HQ Abjurations isn't a bad deal.

And hell. If you really want to blow everyone away, Nirvana is 100m cheaper than every other functional Mythic or Empyrean Weapon.
Learn to read.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
Offline
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1001
By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-26 13:48:07  
I think the point he was making is that every Mythic costs exactly the same. Your statement makes no sense.
First Page 2 3 ... 24 25 26 ... 45 46 47
Log in to post.