Populism And Nationalism On The Rise In Europe

You must live under a rock. Where terrorist attacks do not happen or where white ppl are not Muslim to begin with to twist my words into that nonsense. Speak for yourself Tyvm. Nationalism =/= Racist. It means your loyal to you're country and everything that it stands for. You should try pledging allegiance some time to the world you know. Smh

Xenophobia and racism are often tied to nationalism, but they aren't necessarily tied. I don't think anyone said that nationalism was equal to racism.

That's exactly what he was insinuating with such a misquote or do you not read?

I read it and that's not what I got out of it. However, it's been clarified now, so what's the problem?

I answered you politely twice.

It's rather obvious or do we need to bare witness to more global attacks?

I'm not understanding whatever it is you're trying to get across, I guess.

You either pledge allegiance to freedom or you don't. What part of that do you not understand?

Let's get one thing straight. I love my country. It's because I love America that I am critical of our politics. Simply "pledging allegiance to freedom" is akin to letting your kids do whatever they want because they're star-spangled awesome and can do no wrong.

It's that same love of country that a lot of Europeans are obviously feeling that motivates them to be critical of their politics.

If loving your country is the definition of nationalism for you, fine, but don't let love of your country keep you from thinking critically about it's direction and place in the world.

Then I am the one whom must be missing something cuz Nationalism didn't sound like the definition of Terrorism when I looked it up. So someone please explain to me how "Loyalty to one's country" is such a serious threat to others in the year 2015 and not 1944?

I'm not sure where you get that nationalism is terrorism, and there's been quite a few examples of why nationalism can be bad. One of the hallmarks of nationalism is that it's often extreme in nature. "American exceptionalism" We're better than you and we can do whatever we want.

Historically, Europe has been either all-out chaos or tenuous cooperation. There's been a relative peace for a few generation in Europe now and a lot of people see shades of Nazism and Fascism in the surge of nationalist politics and rhetoric recently. That rightfully scares them. It's been over 60 years since we had any kind of war on our soil and that was one bombing run. You have to go back over 150 years for anything on the scale of what Europe saw twice in the last 100.

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be worried and I don't think it's reasonable for you to be so aggressive about how amazing nationalism is in that context.

Going to have to agree to disagree cuz eventho I understand your point. I still don't see how "Nationalism" is more dangerous to all of EU than terrorism itself.

I don't think you can really make a statement like that. Nationalism and terrorism are on two different scales. What's more dangerous, a pipe bomb or flood? The answer is "it depends". It depends on the magnitude of each thing and your proximity to it. On a global scale, extremist nationalism can most definitely be more dangerous than terrorism. Nationalism was in part responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews and as many as 20 million Russians. How many people have terrorists killed? What about destruction? Those same radical nationalists tore a path across Europe, leveled cities, burned farms, crushed entire sovereign nations, some of which didn't get their sovereignty back for 40 years. Heck, even the Chernobyl disaster traces a lot of it's causes back to nationalism, blind faith in the system and "superior soviet technology". Now, generations of people in 2 countries suffer from shocking rates of cancers and birth defects and several hundred square km's will be completely uninhabitable for 50,000 years.

You can't dismiss the bad that can come from nationalism.

No you're wrong. I can cause I know what year it is ( 2015 not 1944 ) and ain't going to kid myself into thinking those things will ever happen again. For a few reasons. - A) Nobody in the EU is militarily capable of doing any such thing. - B) The USA wouldn't allow it. - C) Wanting to restore your country to peaceful levels only requires your gov't to act and deport those whom have come for the fun of threatening Sharia and other nonsense. It's that simple. EU is not the USA and shouldn't be a doormat for ppl to wipe thier feet all over.
Freedom means Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Religion. Not Freedom to hide ammunition that French authorities sieze. You're right. Freedom is not plotting to and then destroying your neighbor's house.

You bring up Trump again as if he is Hitler in the making. I mean seriously. I live in America. We have Gov't checks and balances. Maybe ya heard of such? Man I'm done debating. Carry on.

This is complicated because on the surface nationalism seems like a benign policy. You could say the same about all protectionist policies. It sounds good on paper but can cause larger problems in the long run.

However, nationalism was used by multiple parties during both World Wars to justify actions (economic, political, and violent) that helped create an untenable situation. Part (most) of the creation of the EU was to prevent this from happening again.

Someone is using the example of pledging to the flag as an example of nationalism and yes that can be one.

Better examples for understanding this would be encouraging only buying American made products*, only dating Americans, only cheering on American sports teams, or *especially* creating protectionist laws for immigration, goods, and services against other countries.

Part of the creation of the EU was to stop vilifying other member countries and unite under a common economic and political banner where those countries within the EU could not discriminate against each other.

As I mentioned before free movement of people, goods, and services is the backbone of the EU.

Simplified:
The economic system within the EU is based on the free market system. Consumers are able to purchase goods and services within the EU without penalty, businesses are able to sell them without penalty. The business laws cannot be adjusted to discriminate based on an EU members country of origin.**

People from member countries (all citizens and some countries allow permenant resident permit holders) are allowed to move freely within the EU with no additional barriers. Human rights laws are also involved.

Frankly, the EU is governed by multiple treaties and is complicated. I'm pretty sure you aren't looking to understand the laws governing free movement within the EU.

*I'll adress this from an EU standpoint in a moment, continue reading.
** they can discriminate against non-EU members. F.x. Allow free movement of Italian lemons but add tarrifs to US lemons.

TL:DR: Nationalism sounds like a good idea but has had wide ranging side effects which caused many issues in Europe during the last century. EU member countries are not allowed to discriminate against other member countries, so nationalism that encourages this discrimination is not tollerated.

Surely, you aren't serious.


I'm not sure who you think is threatening Sharia on EU members, because the muslims who live there and the refugees aren't. Besides, there are millions of Muslims who live throughout the EU who were born there, to parents who were born there. Where would you even deport them to?

This line of thought is exactly the kind of nationalism that is dangerous.

Who is militarily capable of doing something so extreme as to think they could overtake one another within the EU?

Idk on a person to person basis but obviously there are definitely ppl whom have come as immigrants, either legally or illegally, that are causing some issues. I'm sure not everyone was born there. Obviously if they are and doing something so ridiculous then shame on them.

Your first statement was that no one in the EU is militarily capable, which is incorrect.

Your second question has nothing to do with that. Countries don't need to be militarily capable to go to war with each other.

Countries in Europe have 1000+ years of issues with each other. Just within the UK and Ireland there is still ongoing strife.

In the US some people still have issues with how the civil war (or war of northern aggression) turned out. There have been many more problems/wars between countries in Europe and people/families have long memories.

The US part is kinda laughable cuz it's not exactly reality but I'll accept the EU report.

That's patriotism, not nationalism.

Patriotism: loving one's country and being proud of it. However, out of love for their country some people will oppose what the government is doing and seek to embody their country's greater ideals.

Nationalism: WE'RE THE BEST AND LETS KILL ANYONE ELSE WHO DISAGREES RAWR

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but you really don't know much history.
You actually think that since 1944 there have been no wars or skirmishes based on nationalism?
That's an impressive stance to hold in a thread about the EU...
Serbia?
Kosovo?
Bosnia?
Albania?

Maybe that is too EU for you. How about Vietnam? All you have to do is look at the propaganda that was being spewed everywhere and what it was meant to invoke in the audience at the time.

How about the cold war? If you don't think the US suffered error from nationalism, then surely you can't deny the USSR did? The truth is both did. But you can't not admit that at least one of them was acting the way it did out of nationalism and the other was just trying to contain it.


EDIT: its kind of ironic hearing someone from the US talk about illegal ammunition storage in the EU... seeing as the US has the highest gun related crime in the world and largest amounts of illegal firearms and is doing NOTHING about it.

14 people killed by terrorists in the USA vs 30,000 murdered by illegal Guns.

World is larger and more complex than Fox news, dude.

That's the definition as I read it but yeah I can see from all points spoken how one could lead to the other now.
Ilegal is labeled such for a good reason. Anything illegal is a threat. Regardless if it's in the USA or France or anyplace else. I'm not against gun ownership but obviously having one illegally means you don't belong with one.

You are seriously trying to argue that there aren't people in the US that still have issues with how the civil war was resolved?

You may want to do more than just pledge allegiance to the flag (which, by the way, isn't freedom you are pledging to), and actually learn a bit about that country (and what it stands for).

And as actions speak louder than words, take "what it stands for" and compare it to the actions it has taken (both overt and covert) around the world.

Kinder eggs are illegal in the US.
Yes, these:

Cower in fear from the threatening Kinder Egg of DOOOOOOOOOOOM!

this is why
who wouldn't ban that!