The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

It's only weird because you don't seem to get it. All the other variables remain the same, you're just adding more steps for no *** reason. If you find the percent change in your attack or the percent change in your BP damage, that's going to be your percent change in the total. I don't see why this is so difficult for you. If A*B = D and I increase A by a percent, like 25%, then it would be A*1.25*B = D*1.25

Do you see it now? Since it's multiplied by each other, you can do it like that without wasting time and effort on common ***like base damage and TP. So no, it's not weird, you just want to over complicate it.

Now you're just cherry picking:

It's wasn't a "winner" it was just starting the conversation. Being misrepresentitive on purpose is basically = you aren't worth talking to so if that's how you wanna do this be my guest.


Adding to multipliers is not the same as multiplying everything by something, now you're just obtuse.

Either you're both misunderstanding on purpose to try and make your point stronger, or you can't comprehend and read another's point of view. Here since you didn't even read the last post:


Let me say it more formally but this is the last time:

BP Damage * PDIF * Base Damage

This is what you talk about it as:

You remove BP Damage and PDIF from the formula, then check each separately in a three step process.
1. (current bp damage + new bp damage) / current bp damage
2. (current attack + new attack)/ current attack
3. see their damage improvement added

What we've always used here we use a formula just like this one for magical pacts, with MAB just is replaced by PDIF since we're doing physical:

BP mulitplier * PDIF multiplier * Base damage

Where BP multiplier is (1 + (current bp damage + new bp damage)/100)
And PDIF multiplier is (1 + (current attack + new attack) / mob defense)

Example: You have 155 bp damage, 2000 attack, and the mob has 1000 defense. Which is greater to add, 10 BP damage and 100 Attack or 12 BP damage and 80 attack?

The method you guys are saying:
For 10 BP damage 100 Attack
1. (2.55 + .1)/2.55
2. (2000 + 100)/2000
3. 3.92% + 5% = about 8.92% improvement Or if you chose to honor they actually multiply together in the formula: 9.116%

12 BP damage 80 attack
1. (2.55 + .12)/2.55
2. (2000 + 80)/2000
3. 4.7% + 4% = about 8.7% improvement Or if you chose to honor they actually multiply together in the formula: 8.88%

Gear choice 1 wins by about .22%

Using the full formula way that doesn't have several hidden steps and lets people have context and what we have always done here:
For 10 BP damage 100 Attack
(2.55 + .1) * ((2000 + 100)/ 1000) * base = 2.56 * 2.1 * base = 5.376 multiplier

For 12 BP damage 80 Attack
(2.55 + .12) * ((2000 + 80)/ 1000) * base = 2.67 * 2.08 * base = 5.5536 multiplier

Gear choice 2 wins by about 3.3%


So ...

I don't like your way, and it comes to the wrong gear choice.
* It has more steps, not less, making it more complicated
* It is wrong and in this case arrives at the wrong gear choice
* It removes everything from the formula which obscures what you're even trying to do
* If it did work, it'd have to be always related back to the core formula every time someone asked or needed it
* What you said about multiplying by 1.067 ends up with a 1.067 larger number was never anything I had a problem with, but you seem stuck on it as your only answer, you keep talking about multiplying multipliers, but fail to understand that you're focusing on that only when there's multiplier having numbers added to them before they are multiplied together.
* You've never really elaborated on more complex stuff or even this simple example on what you'd do with gear that has both attack and bp damage.
* You just state everything is over complicated but don't explain yourselves ever, and mistake me trying to get you to understand, when you stubbornly don't wish to as actual math work.
* You do need to know how they interact together, and knowing which multiplier is smaller will also clue you in on which multiplier would give you better end result damage do to their weights.

Before you respond with your typical response let me do it for you. But if I make a 5% increase in damage then it's a 5% increase in damage:
2000 * 1 * 2.55 = 5100
2000 * 1.05 * 2.55 = 5355

see 5355/5100 = 1.05 ! omg how can this coincidence be me multiplying by 1.05 made it multiply by 1.05 now I can ignore all your posts and misrepresent everything you said and make up new ones you didn't say! I r so great. tee hee. ~_~ I'm so done with this conversation. I respect a lot comeatmebro has done and ausar has been a help around here for many years, in multiple places. But I don't feel either of you are actually trying to solve problems or breech an understanding as much as stick to a taught method which isn't a one size fits all solution. I don't really appreciate it when you misrepresent what I said and use one liners instead of actual discussion I guess the real conversation was over about 19 posts ago, when I gave comeatmebro an upvote for saying you need to keep how much you have in account even though Sidra was right in a lot he said too.

2.55+.1 is 2.65. times 2.1 you get 5.565

Just wanna apologize real quick to Austrar. My original post was 100% spot on, but in follow-up posts discussing attack and pdif effects on damage, I am pretty sure I brain farted as I was 100% wrong and he was 100% correct. 1/10 X 2 is 2/10. The defense doesn't matter. My apologies to all, and especially Austrar.

I'm not gonna apologize, I made a mistake in my 2nd equation which I'm happy to have pointed out, but they still can't tell how two formulas relate to the same thing and argue needlessly while repeating stuff that is obvious while ignoring most of what was said and never risking anything by doing math themselves or trying to figure it out. They are so myopic they can't even see what another person is saying and have to scream about multiplying by 1.067 makes something multiplied by 1.067 over and over when that was never contested. In the end I had to spell it out for them so they could even comprehend another person. I've said multiplication is communicative to others many times on these forums in the past about other things even recently as last week, so that jab lets call it is pure stupidity and doesn't even have anything to do with the problem. Most the points in my post still stand as well as earlier posts where I said they are accomplishing the same thing via different methods (which my original post actually had those words but I did have a mistake so thought your method didn't even work). You show no work but your method is actually far more complicated. In fact in your post you showed not only is yours more complicated, but you confirmed my earlier post on the prior page that they are the same just different methods to arrive there.

I've learned a lot from a lot of people here and am always open to learning things and teaching others and in many other ways helping others, in fact in about 1.5 years I've come from level 90, to making my first 2 mythics, 8 aeonics, and a relic and leading one LS while doing so I've learned a lot and I think very rapidly seeing as how I was never a very serious player (even doing /equip or spellcast is something I didn't do), as well as figuring out things about both RNG and SMN that were never known and contributing to the community for THF as well. Of everyone I've both taught and learned things from in my entire life though, I've rarely met as disrespectful or irritating as you two who so utterly fail to explain their viewpoints or methods or connect with or acknowledge others viewpoints and methods. In fact, the above is the first time you even indirectly acknowledged the formula is valid and arrives at the same answer. Plugging things in to a formula and multiplying it out is simpler than the multi step process you claim is simpler by not showing you steps in the first place, which also adds to confusion for anyone else. I'll own my mistake on the 2nd formula but the rest is on you. Which I also feel if you weren't so inane to communicate with while also being provoking then conversation would be more informative and calm on both sides. That mood is condusive to mistakes more than anything else, and mistakes themselves aren't something to be ashamed of as everyone makes them. Your attitudes though, 100% suck, you don't try to understand what was said or even honor what was said, instead trying to manipulate and misrepresent it, which doesn't lead to a seeking of answers but being right. Would not converse again, 0/10.

Cut it with the name calling.

Since they are multiplied together, it is the total % increase. If my attack is increased by 10%, you multiply it by 1.1, which is multiplied by total BP damage.

Which is why if you remove like variables, in this case, everything besides the difference in attack or BP, it works.

Duh? So does your unnecessary way of doing it, which also requires mob defense which isn't always a known value. If you can't /checkparam and add BP in gear and ***, then I don't know what to tell you.

And since Thorny's post got deleted:

Remove like terms, you get 20 attack vs 2 BP. 2.67/2.65 vs 2100/2080. Second one is higher, by the same percent as 5.565/5.5536 only with fewer steps and no need for unknown variables which are like terms.

I still don't' see why you're trying to argue your point.

lmao. no.

We did show our work, there's just one or two steps and that's all it takes. You just don't seem to get it. Hence, the repeating of it.

I have no bloody clue what you guys are discussing anymore.
Can we get back to the original topic instead of playin the "I'm right, you're wrong" game?

I'm not interested in people measuring each other's penis, on the other hand knowing an approximate way to weight attack+ vs BPdmg+ is quite interesting.

So if anybody can sum up the outcome of your discussion I would be very apreciative.

new attack / old attack for percent increase

(new BP + 100) / (old BPD + 100) for percent increase.

Summary:

Frod asked if there was a meaningful way to estimate value between BPD and avatar attack.

I posted that you can calculate the percentage increase and compare those.

Verda posted that you can't do that and you need to calculate the entire blood pact damage to see which is better.

Austar pointed out that it's all the same because multiplication gives the same result regardless of what step it's performed at.

Verda posted that it's not and some incorrect math to show that it's not.

Austar and I corrected the math, showing that it is fine either way.

tldr; verda spent 2 pages trying to say multiplication isn't commutative, sidra jumped in at some point to side with him but eventually realized he was wrong

To calculate which is better between two pieces with BPD and/or avatar attack:

Take the sum of your BPD using the piece with higher BPD, X1.
Take the sum of your BPD using the piece with lower BPD, X2.

X1 + 100 / X2 + 100 = relative gain from using higher BPD piece

Take your avatar attack when using the piece with higher attack, Y1.
Take your avatar attack when using the piece with lower attack, Y2.

Y1 / Y2 = relative gain from using higher attack piece

if the first calculation is higher, the BPD piece wins.. if the second is higher the attack piece wins.. you don't need a thousand word essay explaining it, it's very simple

note that if you cap ratio, obviously attack ceases to help and the BPD will be a clear winner, for this reason you should generally side with the BPD when pieces are particularly close

If PDIF isn't capped then:

Gear A BP Damage = BP1, Gear A Attack = A1
Gear B BP Damage = BP2, Gear B Attack = A2

(1 + (BP1 + TotalBP)/100) * (A1 + TotalAttack)/MobDef = Damage Multiplier
(1 + (BP2 + TotalBP)/100) * (A2 + TotalAttack)/MobDef = Damage Multiplier

If the first is Damage Multiplier bigger then Gear A wins if the 2nd is bigger gear B wins. Same as with PDIF subbed for MAB, no relative ratios and balancing and one piece of gear is one equation. The essays were to get you to understand which you still don't if you think that's what they were for. I think this is simpler but Comeatmebro's works too.

Examples:
Gear A: 10 BP damage, 100 Attack
Gear B: 12 BP damage, 80 Attack
155 BP Damage, 2000 Attack, 1000 Mob Def

2.65 * 2.1 = 5.565 *Wins*
2.67 * 2.08 = 5.5536

If you don't know the Mob Def anything can be subbed in as long as you understand it won't go over cap pdif in the game.
155 BP Damage, 2000 Attack, 3000 Mob Def

2.65 * .7 = 1.855
2.67 * .693 = 1.8512

It's the same exact calculations, done twice over, with an extra division added. There's no defendable standpoint for simpler.

It is, however, how you calculate actual BP damage. It's not a useless formula, but if you're just comparing two pieces or sets without concern for acc, it adds nothing of interest. For that matter, stating it as simplified as you have, it fails to help add information from accuracy or stat mods and just provides the same result in more steps.

Any tips on doing Nirvana trials? On plantiod atm and this is mind numbing.

If you don't count subtracting the differences of each set of gear, and adding in totals as steps then sure. You could argue those steps are trivial but I could make the same argument about my steps as far as doing it twice over 90% of the 2nd one is copy and paste from the first. We're not gonna agree so lets just drop it.


I did all mine at the oasis with all the mandragoras in Abyssea - Altepa. It's easy to pull large groups and you can have regain atma on. You can get a COR mule to regain roll and sam roll you and get trust Ayamae (UC) if you want to go even further in less time. A decent low acc tp set doesn't hurt either as well as using joachim since he'll actually give you one march to stack w/ your haste II. It also helps to actually make a garland mab set and use star sibyl.

Thank you any tips for the other trials?

Find a place in abyssea for all the trials and do them all there, regain atma are really helpful. You can use wikia to find good spots as it lists the mobs, how many are in zone and their family type on each abyssea page, then even if a camp is taken you can find another for yourself :)

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Abyssea lists all the areas a bit down from the top.

Sweet i was looking for something like this <3

im starting to update my smn from the delve helios gear days iv started to replace helios with merl gear with +bp an acc, I have af body 119 and im using a pretyy much perfect auged skirmish staff, my jp are capped bp dmg and acc but my smn is still very lacklustre, is the mab on each bit of gear on apogee so important? also does jp magical dmg effect bp dmg?

Just get regen atmas and pull as many as you can, then brew them. You should get all your trials done fairly quick.

Of course it is. How else will you increase your magical damage.

Apogee for magical (and a bit for Hybrid), with RFs for physical.
SR pants beat everything for physical and hybrid in the legs slot.
And you should use the Empyrean body instead of the Artifact, at least until you +2 the Artifact. No need to waste time by not hitting things.

Merlinic is pretty much a waste of life at this point. At least for BPdmg. The only exception are the hands as they are BiS for both magic and physical (different augs obvs).
Though you *can* potentially match a HQ Apogee body with Merlinic.... it's such a headache and Apogee body makes an ideal idle piece anyways as it helps your Avatars not get 1shotted as much by giving them a bunch of your HP (And the refresh+3/4), so why even bother with that mess.

And yes. The Mdmg JP category is just that. +Mdmg to magical and hybrid BPs.

Also: You'll want to change your leaf augment on Keraunos if you did something like perp. Crit or crit+DA make it the best nonNirvana stave in the game for physical and hybrid BPs now that they changed the physical and hybrid BPs.

The "BP Damage" and "Avatar Magic Damage" job points are trashy, do them last.

They are both "base damage" modifiers.

So for example, if you have 100 BP Damage and 200 Pet:MAB. You do a magic BP for 4000 base damage.

Normally you would deal 4000 * 2 * 3 = 24000 damage.

Now let's say you add BP Damage +10 from job points (which is not +10% like most BP Damage stats) and Avatar Magic Damage +5 from job points.

Your new damage will be 4015 * 2 * 3 = 24090 damage.

In other words, your BP Damage +10 and Avatar Magic Damage +5 added 90 total damage to your blood pact.

I would suggest this priority for job points:
#1: Avatar Accuracy
#2: Avatar Magic Accuracy
#3: Avatar's Favor Effect
#4: Avatar Attack

Also, the Astral Flow & Astral Conduit job point categories are utterly incredible, so if you use those abilities at all (and you should) then prioritize those high as well, possibly higher than some of the ones I listed as the top 4. The Astral Flow job points are best utilized by popping Astral Flow right before you Conduit so that your avatar is much stronger during Conduit.

Wait...what? The BP damage at lv 20 is +60 BP Dmg and I think an additive total to all of the other +BP from gear, and considering most SMN will probably be at about 200 total - you are talking about those JP equating to a real damage increase of around 30%. It may be the best JP. Or at least I thought...

And, I am not 100% on this but always assumed it to be the case. The JP for Magic Damage is "Magic Damage" not "Magic Attack." So it's a base increase of 100 to whatever the base DMG is for the Avatar spells - kind of like the Magic Damage stat on caster staves. And +100 is a lot.

The accuracy JP'S on the otherhand only move 20 at a time. And while accuracy is good, I can't imagine 20 of it helping more than the pretty massive damage increased from the aforementioned JPs. Maybe nab a few of the cheap ones as the damage ones get more expensive.

I recently got my SMN to 99 and started gearing it - I have 5 JPs into some of the Acc/Att ones, but 20 into BP Damage and my BP damage has scaled very aggressively. So while I will say I am new to SMN and thus perhaps my understanding on both of these are off. The eyebell test in what has happened to my BP damage over the last 2 weeks, leads me to believe you are underestimating the BP Damage JP by a lot. I am routinely hitting 30 and 40k Flaming Crush/VOlt Strikes which I was lucky to hit 15k on - and it's only been a few gear upgrades - the majority of the rise I was assuming from the BP Damage JP.

unless i'm missing something, those JP are added to the avatar's base damage and are not in any way a percentage

it's not the same stat as 'blood pact damage' on gear

Perhaps that is the case I am not sure of the mechanics behind it - but if so, it is a considerable increase to whatever the base DMG the Avatar has, similar like going from a weapon doing 150 dmg to a weapon doing 210 or whatever the actual numbers are. I haven't been using too many Magic BPs yet as most of What Ive done is Ambuscade and Escha. My damage has more then doubled from when I started Summonering - and these JPs are by far the biggest change I've had. However it works, it has to be more significant than he mentioned above.

Perhaps the issue is that while he is technically correct in how it works - 4k is not a base damage number to start from. Tier V spells say on BLM, assuming max dint are like 1600 plus another 200 or from the weapon - and thats best case scenario on weak stuff - against higher monsters its considerable lower. If the base was say 1500 it'd be a 7% damage increase - and a bigger buff the stronger the enemy is. And on the physical side - look at the 10s of thousands of damage weaponskills mele do and look at the damage of their base weapons. Now add 60 to that weapon - everything does a shitton more damage after that.

Again - I am not saying I know which way mathematically is correct - just saying that the in game impact is great.