Treason And Congress Letter To Iran - No One Undermines The US Like The Republicans |
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Treason and Congress letter to Iran - No one undermines the US like the Republicans
Treason and Congress letter to Iran - No one undermines the US like the Republicans
Artemicion said: » Definitely not treason, but definitely a violation of The Logan Act. Hopefully there'll be some accountability, but considering how many participated and their bureaucratic positions, nothing will likely happen. Every peace treaty has to go through Congress before it is ratified. That's what the letter stated.
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I'd have to be an American citizen to partake in any partisan political discourse.
You don't, however, have to be an American to understand that some members of another team are sabotaging their own captain. It does appear that you have to be a republican to not grasp that concept. He's YOUR president....do you not see the irony? Who is negotiating a peace treaty?
Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Artemicion said: » The Logan Act Washington Post blog entry seems to respond to this assumption by many that Congress can legally sabotage the Executive Branch's foreign policy efforts. It can't. Quote: Republican Congressmen Violated Logan Act By Negotiating With Foreign Leaders Posted on March 9, 2015 by WashingtonsBlog They’re Trying to Destroy the Founding Fathers’ Vision of Separation of Powers We’ve repeatedly pointed out that America is being decimated by the break down in the separation of powers between different branches of government. The latest example is Congressional violation of the Logan Act. Specifically, the Logan Act – enacted in 1799 – states: Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. The Logan Act was named for Dr. George Logan, a Pennsylvania state legislator (and later US Senator) who engaged in semi-negotiations with France in 1798 during the Quasi-War. In United States v. Curtiss-Wright Export Corp. (1936), Justice Sutherland wrote in the majority opinion: [T]he President alone has the power to speak or listen as a representative of the nation. He makes treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate; but he alone negotiates. Into the field of negotiation the Senate cannot intrude, and Congress itself is powerless to invade it. Sutherland also notes in his opinion the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations report to the Senate of February 15, 1816: The President is the constitutional representative of the United States with regard to foreign nations. He manages our concerns with foreign nations, and must necessarily be most competent to determine when, how, and upon what subjects negotiation may be urged with the greatest prospect of success. For his conduct, he is responsible to the Constitution. I happen to think that Obama is a tyrant who – like Bush – should be impeached for trampling the Constitution. But two wrongs don’t make a right … In inviting the leader of Israel to speak directly to the American Congress without the U.S. president’s assent, Congressional Republicans violated the Logan Act. See this, this and this. Likewise, directly telling the leaders of Iran that America won’t honor Obama’s negotiated commitments is a violation of the Logan Act. Indeed, the Senator who organized the effort admitted that his intent was to sabotage negotiations with Iran. Asura.Kingnobody said: » Artemicion said: » Definitely not treason, but definitely a violation of The Logan Act. Hopefully there'll be some accountability, but considering how many participated and their bureaucratic positions, nothing will likely happen. Every peace treaty has to go through Congress before it is ratified. That's what the letter stated. The Logan Act prevents unauthorized citizens to negotiate with foreign governments.
That letter is neither negotiating with foreign governments nor is Congress unauthorized to negotiate with foreign governments. There is no violation of the Logan Act here.
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: » What are they negotiating? They are negotiating how to move forward with Iran's nuclear program. Its not a peace treaty. If an agreement is reached, it will not be a treaty, it will be an agreement. Do you guys even know what a peace treaty is? This is not nitpicking btw. We are not at war with Iran, there is no gray area here.
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » Artemicion said: » Definitely not treason, but definitely a violation of The Logan Act. Hopefully there'll be some accountability, but considering how many participated and their bureaucratic positions, nothing will likely happen. Every peace treaty has to go through Congress before it is ratified. That's what the letter stated. That's right. Every peace treaty presented to congress by the Commander in Chief needs ratification by Congress. The President/executive branch represent the US in negotiations with foreign powers. It then needs 2/3 majority VOTE in congress to be ratified. They obstructed the negotiations being carried out by the whitehouse. They didn't have any peace treaty presented to them. They overstepped and shot it down before it ever made its way to the vote! EDIT: Not that this is a treaty anyways. Just responding to the drivel I see here. Shiva.Viciousss said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » What are they negotiating? They are negotiating how to move forward with Iran's nuclear program. Its not a peace treaty. If an agreement is reached, it will not be a treaty, it will be an agreement. Do you guys even know what a peace treaty is? This is not nitpicking btw. We are not at war with Iran, there is no gray area here. You are so harped up about the Logan Act, but you failed to prove that the letter is in violation of that act. Asura.Kingnobody said: » The Logan Act prevents unauthorized citizens to negotiate with foreign governments. That letter is neither negotiating with foreign governments nor is Congress unauthorized to negotiate with foreign governments. There is no violation of the Logan Act here. Uh, actually, Congress does not negotiate with foreign governments, ever. They have no authority to do so, as the Logan Act clearly states. Asura.Kingnobody said: » Nobody is saying this is a peace treaty. I used that as an example of one of the powers of Congress that makes them authorized citizens to negotiate with foreign governments. You are so harped up about the Logan Act, but you failed to prove that the letter is in violation of that act. And its a wrong example. Congress is not authorized to negotiate with foreign governments, where did you get this idea? I really don't care about the Logan Act. I am not making any claim that treason has been committed, I have only stated that the letter is a pathetic attempt of sabotage. Shiva.Viciousss said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » The Logan Act prevents unauthorized citizens to negotiate with foreign governments. That letter is neither negotiating with foreign governments nor is Congress unauthorized to negotiate with foreign governments. There is no violation of the Logan Act here. Uh, actually, Congress does not negotiate with foreign governments, ever. They have no authority to do so, as the Logan Act clearly states. Here, I'll help you out. (inb4 "This isn't Logan's Act" excuse, even though it is) Shiva.Viciousss said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » What are they negotiating? They are negotiating how to move forward with Iran's nuclear program. Its not a peace treaty. If an agreement is reached, it will not be a treaty, it will be an agreement. Do you guys even know what a peace treaty is? This is not nitpicking btw. We are not at war with Iran, there is no gray area here. Where in the letter do they negotiate how to move forward? Quote: “Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.” And Quote: Under the Constitution, the president is the federal official that is primarily responsible for the relations of the United States with foreign nations. The president appoints ambassadors, ministers, and consuls —subject to confirmation by the Senate—and receives foreign ambassadors and other public officials. With the secretary of state, the president manages all official contacts with foreign governments. On occasion, the president may personally participate in summit conferences where heads of state meet for direct consultation. For example, President Wilson led the American delegation to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 after World War I; President Franklin D. Roosevelt met with Allied leaders during World War II; and every president sits down with world leaders to discuss economic and political issues and to reach agreements. Through the Department of State and the Department of Defense, the president is responsible for the protection of Americans abroad and of foreign nationals in the United States. The president decides whether to recognize new nations and new governments, and negotiate treaties with other nations, which become binding on the United States when approved by two-thirds of the Senate. The president may also negotiate "executive agreements" with foreign powers that are not subject to Senate confirmation. Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Artemicion said: » The Logan Act Congressmen aren't authorized to engage in negotiations with foreign countries unless specifically appointed to do so. But, they aren't negotiating, so it's not a violation of the logan act at this point. It's just a complete asshat move. The only known indictment under the Logan Act was one that occurred in 1803 when a grand jury indicted Francis Flournoy, a Kentucky farmer, who had written an article in the Frankfort Guardian of Freedom under the pen name of "A Western American." In the article, Flournoy advocated a separate nation in the western part of the United States that would ally with France. The United States Attorney for Kentucky, an Adams appointee and brother-in-law of Chief Justice John Marshall, went no further than procuring the indictment of Flournoy. The purchase of the Louisiana Territory later that year appeared to cause the separatism issue to become moot.
Right from Wiki. This act hardly applies. Here's a few times dems have done the same thing or worse. All smoke, no fire. Seriously, someone points to a 200 year old law that has been use in an indictment ONCE, and desperate liberals just can't wait to loose their minds? Odin.Jassik said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Artemicion said: » The Logan Act Congressmen aren't authorized to engage in negotiations with foreign countries unless specifically appointed to do so. But, they aren't negotiating, so it's not a violation of the logan act at this point. It's just a complete asshat move. Quote: "Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence " maldini said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Artemicion said: » The Logan Act Congressmen aren't authorized to engage in negotiations with foreign countries unless specifically appointed to do so. But, they aren't negotiating, so it's not a violation of the logan act at this point. It's just a complete asshat move. Quote: "Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence " If they wanted to influence, they wouldn't make it an open letter. They were just attempting to embarrass Obama at home and abroad. You could make a case for it being a violation of the logan act if you wanted to, but that would be a for a court to decide. Ragnarok.Nausi said: » The only known indictment under the Logan Act was one that occurred in 1803 when a grand jury indicted Francis Flournoy, a Kentucky farmer, who had written an article in the Frankfort Guardian of Freedom under the pen name of "A Western American." In the article, Flournoy advocated a separate nation in the western part of the United States that would ally with France. The United States Attorney for Kentucky, an Adams appointee and brother-in-law of Chief Justice John Marshall, went no further than procuring the indictment of Flournoy. The purchase of the Louisiana Territory later that year appeared to cause the separatism issue to become moot. Right from Wiki. This act hardly applies. Here's a few times dems have done the same thing or worse. All smoke, no fire. maldini said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » The only known indictment under the Logan Act was one that occurred in 1803 when a grand jury indicted Francis Flournoy, a Kentucky farmer, who had written an article in the Frankfort Guardian of Freedom under the pen name of "A Western American." In the article, Flournoy advocated a separate nation in the western part of the United States that would ally with France. The United States Attorney for Kentucky, an Adams appointee and brother-in-law of Chief Justice John Marshall, went no further than procuring the indictment of Flournoy. The purchase of the Louisiana Territory later that year appeared to cause the separatism issue to become moot. Right from Wiki. This act hardly applies. Here's a few times dems have done the same thing or worse. All smoke, no fire. That's cause you're:  Asura.Kingnobody said: » Uh, you haven't proven anyone wrong. You are trying to hang on the word "negotiate" but as usual, you are failing. Cotton is on the record in stating that his intent is to sabotage the negotiations. He sent a letter with the intention of influencing the negotiations, it would be a pretty quick court case. Censorship is appropriate. Shiva.Viciousss said: » Asura.Kingnobody said: » Uh, you haven't proven anyone wrong. You are trying to hang on the word "negotiate" but as usual, you are failing. Cotton is on the record in stating that his intent is to sabotage the negotiations. He sent a letter with the intention of influencing the negotiations, it would be a pretty quick court case. Censorship is appropriate. If you're trying to hold that reminding people of reality is sabotage.... Just leave it alone, it ain't going anywhere vic. Odin.Jassik said: » maldini said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Artemicion said: » The Logan Act Congressmen aren't authorized to engage in negotiations with foreign countries unless specifically appointed to do so. But, they aren't negotiating, so it's not a violation of the logan act at this point. It's just a complete asshat move. Quote: "Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence " If they wanted to influence, they wouldn't make it an open letter. They were just attempting to embarrass Obama at home and abroad. You could make a case for it being a violation of the logan act if you wanted to, but that would be a for a court to decide. If the US's goal is to avoid war with Iran and reach a non-military solution acceptable to all parties, this has gone a long way to sabotage those efforts. The real issue with this is that it has not just undermined the US's executive branch with foreign powers that are considered hostile, but also with US allies such as the UK, Germany and France who have been partners in the Iranian talks. This undermines the office of the president, not just the president, as well as the US itself. These 47 republicans basically spat on the very system that provides them office, not to mention the concept of separation of powers. Furthermore it comes only days after they stuck it to Obama by providing Netenyahu a platform to undermine the country's executive branch. Seriously the Republicans are out of control and behaving like a state within a state. Caitsith.Shiroi said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » All smoke, no fire. Seriously, someone points to a 200 year old law that has been use in an indictment ONCE, and desperate liberals just can't wait to loose their minds? And somehow using a personal email is a massive scandal. Clearly Obama's Birth Certificate and Middle name are more important. Keep flailing, you're bound to hit something...
Ragnarok.Nausi said: » If you're trying to hold that reminding people of reality is sabotage.... Just leave it alone, it ain't going anywhere vic. Oh, should we instead give a ***about you referencing events from 30 years ago? Yeah, ain't happening nausi. But keep dreaming that this GOP scandal is going away soon. maldini said: » Odin.Jassik said: » maldini said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Ragnarok.Nausi said: » Artemicion said: » The Logan Act Congressmen aren't authorized to engage in negotiations with foreign countries unless specifically appointed to do so. But, they aren't negotiating, so it's not a violation of the logan act at this point. It's just a complete asshat move. Quote: "Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence " If they wanted to influence, they wouldn't make it an open letter. They were just attempting to embarrass Obama at home and abroad. You could make a case for it being a violation of the logan act if you wanted to, but that would be a for a court to decide. If the US's goal is to avoid war with Iran and reach a non-military solution acceptable to all parties, this has gone a long way to sabotage those efforts. The real issue with this is that it has not just undermined the US's executive branch with foreign powers that are considered hostile, but also with US allies such as the UK, Germany and France who have been partners in the Iranian talks. This undermines the office of the president, not just the president, as well as the US itself. These 47 republicans basically spat on the very system that provides them office, not to mention the concept of separation of powers. Furthermore it comes only days after they stuck it to Obama by providing Netenyahu a platform to undermine the country's executive branch. Seriously the Republicans are out of control and behaving like a state within a state. I agree with you on this subject, except that their open letter isn't a clear violation of the logan act, it's just a really asshat chest-beating and distasteful thing to do. I definitely hope anyone who signed that letter faces incredible amounts of public outcry, but I know most will never pay any political consequence for it because that's exactly the kind of petty crap their electorate wants. Besides, who is actually willing to bring treason charges against a sitting congressman? It would be career suicide. |
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