Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium

I dont know about that. What valuable conclusion you can get from comparing one set with lets say 10%TA and 30%DA and 12hit and its 2 axes vs Axe/dagger set with 30%TA and 20%DA and 16hit and Fencer build with mythic with 5%TA, 5%DA and 8hit?

There is literally nothing you can conclude from here unless you actually calculate tp per round and tp per second. Otherwise its pure guessing.

With the introduction of Angwu, I dont think there is any situation now where bst would offhand a dagger. As for multiattack, Double Attack is not optimal to use with AM3 because of the way the game checks multi attack. QA > TA > DA > OO3 > OO2

Im well aware of this, but im not sure how that well known fact is connected to the point Im trying to make? :)


Idk, its probably not bis for master focused Decimation build. At least it doesnt look like it would be.

Also dagger offhand was only an easy example. There is really plenty of things that wont make one 10hit build equal to other 10hit build. It was okish in 2006 when you barely have any multi attack, delays where similar, there was not much tp choices at all etc. Currently when you say this build is 8hit build, I have no idea if thats fast or slow. I would need to calculate how much tp per sec it is, then I would know.
At least thats my opinion :)

What kind of augments is everyone targeting during this DM campaign? I've been focusing on the Primal Rend set to try to get lucky w/WSD+ and MAB.

This hit is 8 hit pre WS. 7.42 hit post WS, the delay is 2.12seconds,

If we get +4 bonus attacks from the 5% TA/20% OAT/40% OA2. Would only need just 2 combat rounds (4.24 seconds) to 1k.

Rough numbers for the multi attack, will have exact statisticial avg soon. I am almost done with my calculator (work computer though, cant post it til I get home)

Already finding avenues to optimize even further with this info :) ill post sets tonight after testing

I have been hoping for the same! WSD/MAB for Primal Rend.

Do you have the actual tests on hands regarding the pup's animator? I've been testing myself (Neo vs P+1) and Neo falls behind.

I do not. My suggestion to Larrymc was that it needed to be tested. I dont even have PUP.

Initial testing I did showed it wasn’t working on ranged attacks from the puppet but did work on the melee pet. I think I heard that it was an accepted bug report on the official forums

I think they fixed it.

Ok, I've got my spreadsheet/calculator working properly. Here are some results for this set:
ItemSet 378149

Assumptions:
- 100% accuracy (Will be editing the calc later for 95% acc variant)
- Statistical average on multi attack (obviously more or less could happen)
- Regain not factored in (yet!)
- Max Magic Haste
- No SAM roll

Primal Rend TP return to 1k tp: 7.31 Hits
Avg hits/round: 2.8
Sub Nin + AM3: 5.21 seconds to 1k post WS.

Going to be using this calc to min-max an even better set, both master + pet and Master only. I know the master+pet set isn't super necessary or useful, but I enjoy having the option available.


EDIT:
As a comparison, the set on the front page for Max Buff (non-AM) is 5.883 seconds to 1k TP.
And 4.984 with AM up.
So prelim results show more multi-attack is indeed superior to pure STP. This makes me rethink alot!

EDIT 2:
So I've been running numbers and so far I cannot find a better TP set than these:

ItemSet 378167
QA-2 Boots:
Dolichenus - 5.462 sec
Aymur - 4.718 sec

DA-5 Boots:
Dolichenus - 5.507
Aymur - 4.775

ItemSet 378168
This set for AM, boots with 5 DA or 2 QA beat out malignance.

Dolci: 5.546
Aymur AM3: 4.645

In both scenario's, a valorous body w/ 3 QA will beat out anything by a decent margin.

Observant, you will notice the lack of dual wield! Surprisingly the complete lack of dual wield is a net TP/sec increase, I assume because Axe's higher delays put them in the second TP tier whereas sword/dagger/katana are in the lower tier.

Final finding, Sub DNC over Sub NIN if you can keep Haste Samba up will net about a half second faster on all sets!!!

Holy hell you just answered quite a bit about melee bsts in this. I am super stoked to read and learn about the tp tiers and axes vs swords and such. This is very impressive.


If you were to swap baldurs for sherida what would the difference be in your set A and your Set. And if its a decent jump whats the closest second.

Nah, in vacuum dual wield+ would be a TP increase. Going from 25%DW to 36%DW only reduce TP by 11~12.5% (not sure on exact rounding), while increasing swing speed by ~17%. It must be additional stats you gain on waist and ear that outweigh the gain from Dual Wield.

This is exactly what I meant tho!! When you actually start to calculate this instead of going with some 15 late old standards you discover things like this, that completely breaks what was believed to be the only way for years.

Anyone frustrated with how good Dolci is/continues to be going forward? (Especially with the new Ody Set)

Prior to this I was going to R15 Guttler just for the consistent damage and self skillchains. But with all that extra PDL I might be best off spamming Decimation for sure.

My only real gripe about BST getting all this PDL is the lack of native attack buffs to take advantage of it. I really think native dual wield would fix this problem.

The other option I really like is Pangu Path B with the tp bonus axe offhand. It makes for some fairly nice Mistral/Calamity/CloudSplitter spam.

I don't really have it in me to make an Aymur

The ambuscade weapons were a mistake in general, at least naegling, shining one and Dolci.


Balders swap to Sherida:
Set A:
Aymur AM: 4.679
Dolci: 5.326

Set B:
Aymur AM: 4.538
Dolci: 5.443

The dolci numbers in the first post are a tad high because I forgot to swap the WS store tp amount, will adjust shortly. Also, the conserve TP +7 from fotia is not factored in.

~Looks like sherida is better than balders by a bit :O

Great news dude. Saving gils always rocks.

Now for the question on dw. Since you stated going without dw on gear is better for stp.

Does that mean as little dw as possible is going to perform better for our stp gain on bst with axe. Or is there a sweet spot. Like would sub dnc be better for tp gain then sub nin cuz of lower dw from sub.

Dual Wield and Martial Arts lower the base delay of the weapons so your tp gain is reduced when all other factors are the same. I've found that these sets so far have a faster rate of return TP per second going without dual wield in favor of more store tp. DNC sub is always faster than NIN sub if you can maintain haste samba.

I believe there is a comfort in knowing a tp set with dual wield has more potential to be consistent, because relying solely on multi attack is still a dice roll. The numbers I post do assume that you are hitting statistical averages, of course you could come up short on an attack round and the time to tp would take longer, likewise you could come up with multiple quad attacks in a row and your time would come up faster. Dual wield builds help remove the variance but have a higher average time.

I'm going to be running a few events using the no dual wield sets (as soon as lilith drops the damn hands...) and see if its noticeable.

There is no sweet spot. Less than 36% DW is always the loss, the idea here is not that less DW increases tp gain. The idea is that it's still a loss, but items you put in instead of DW items, have stats that overcome that loss and give even more.

Briko, what augs were you using on the cape(s) for the above sets?

10store tp

Thats good to know. I just assumed you were using dw and forgoing the dw gear.

So now I ask. With limited fencer traits on bst. How do these sets dps compare to a dw set offhanding magian axe when using weapons other than the doli/decimation standard. Such as aymur offhanding magian mistral spam after applying am3 with magian and standard stp build. Vs the fencer 1 handed aymur mistral after am3.

Assuming you use the same gearsets for both situations and only change offhand what would the difference be?

I just assumed he was dual wielding. It was my mistake though. I did not realize he was making fencer builds.

I think you misunderstood. Afaik by "no dual wield sets", he meant dual wield build with no DW in gear.

do you have a link?

and just tp gain per second doesn't account for much anyways

Oooh. Lol sorry yea thats what i thought originally. Thank you i just got a bit confused.

No link, it's on my computer lol.

It's an average time to 1k tp post WS. The only issue with it I've found is the variance of relying on multi-attack to hit averages, which is why you should always prioritize values that work 100% of the time (such as DW and STP). This said, it is a fun thought experiment.

I have been trying out the sets you linked with /dnc. I actually feel like it is much faster. You are correct that its not 100% for you to get an exact amount of TP but more often than not I feel as if its WAY faster than with DW.

I did RDM/DNC for a really long time because it was more consistent at self SC than /NIN. It's not surprising that you are finding it the same with Axes instead of Swords if you are managing Haste Samba well. If you have overflow and don't need to refresh Samba, you can always use a step for future reverse flourish.

If people are looking for Haste in weird places, don't forget the mog garden cheer for an extra 1% and in extreme cases, Jokushu haidate for 20%.

Speaking of that monster cheer:

Some comments about that haste monster cheer.

Or to save you a click:


I was assuming it was gear haste personally.

Oh that is fun. Thanks for the info!

I lurk on BST so I'm not sure what situations you sit with for capping magical haste, but the arguement for 2% movement speed has finally been made for me.