The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

With how abundant accuracy is on slots like Taeon there is a large majority of end game content that you really don't need to worry about accuracy on ever.

No matter what someone is going to be stunned, Thaumas doesn't really change anything except that you are doing more damage and thus it is you being stunned instead of the other DD. I guess it depends on whether you want more overall group DPS or a higher parse than the other DD.

Personally I'm lazy and don't want to change my gearswap depending on the fight between Thaumas and Taeon so I just leave Taeon in.

I'm not getting the Maxixi Tiara +1 in the head slot.
Care to enlighten me? Thanks ;)

I appreciate the time and thought you put into your response, but unfortunately all of your scenarios are clearly non-fodder. So it boils down to the point that you don't think more DPS matters on fodder, which... you're right, probably isn't a popular opinion. The sets are all already in the .lua file, so it takes zero effort from me, other than a single inventory spot. I agree with your general point, that if it's fodder it doesn't matter, and if it's not fodder, you don't want the risk. That's exactly where my question stems from. I want to make sure I'm not taking that risk anywhere it matters. Basically, I want to make sure that the .lua defines 'fodder' the same way I do, which is basically the basic mobs outside of Audolin, Dynamis etc.

According to the DPS sheets, using Chapuli's as the target, Thaumus comes out ahead by 54DPS. Maybe that's not as big as I think it is, but it sounds like a lot. It's a whole hell of a lot more than some of the other upgrades on the sheets that we obsess over, that's for sure. Maybe I'll never see that DPS, but as stated, if GS handles it all automatically, why not take advantage of it?

As for the Asura statement... #PandyForLife

The point I am trying to make is when everything dies either in one attack round, or one WS, which will take on average X attack rounds, unless Thaumas Body is lowering the number of attack rounds you need to get enough TP to WS to kill fodder, then it's not actually speeding up killing the fodder.

The DPS spreadsheet, last time I checked, does not take into account things like "monsters do not have infinite hit points."

It's relatively easy to calculate your average number of attacks per round. It's also easy to calculate how much TP you will be gaining per round.

Here's the formula for attacks/round:
2(1 + 3Q + 2(1-Q)T + (1-(Q+T-QT))D) + (1-Q)(1-T)(1-D)(3X + 2Y + Z)

Wherein Q is the chance of quadruple attack, T is triple attack, D is double, and X Y and Z are OA4/3/2, respectively. This assumes you only have OAx on one hand.

As an example, since I have to have an example to actually make a statement on, let's consider a DNC/SAM with Saber Dance up with gear giving 12 Double Attack, 9 Triple Attack, and 1 Quadruple Attack, along with an OA2 atoyac offhand.

2(1 + .03 + 2(.99).09 + (1-(.1-.01*.09)).32) + (1-.01)(1-.09)(1-.32)(.4) comes out to 3.2380208 attacks per attack round on average. Assuming both weapons have 200 delay, and you have 52 Store TP after gear and /SAM and have 35 Dual Wield total, you will be gaining 52 TP per hit.

Gaining 52 TP per hit, with 3.24 attacks per attack round on average, your average attack round will get you 168 TP, which means you will need 5.9523... attack rounds per WS with that specific set of gear that I am using, which is a real set I use.

This is also completely ignoring the 1% chance to miss on the mainhand, and the 5% chance on the offhand, since if it's "fodder" you should be hit rate cap, and I'm trying to keep this relatively simple.

Now let us substitute Thaumas body for the body in that gear set. This adds 3 QA, TA, and DA. This brings you up to 3.511808 attacks per round, on average. It does not change the amount of store TP you have, since the body in the set I am using does not have StoreTP on it, and neither does Thaumas Coat. This means you are now getting 182 TP per attack round on average. Which means now, with your Thaumas Coat on, you will take, on average, 5.4945 attack rounds to get enough TP to WS.

Which means that Thaumas Coat has not sped up your trash killing at all, since you are still taking the same number of attack rounds to be able to WS, which means you are still taking the same amount of time to WS. And either things don't have enough HP to last long enough FOR you to WS them, or they do but the WS kills them, or they have enough HP to survive a whole WS. In the first two cases, you have no sped up your killing speed at all. In the second case, one could argue anything that survives enough attacks to get TP to WS, and the WS itself is not fodder, and regardless, you have not sped up your kill speed.

For reference, if I'm doing about 200 damage a hit, and I'm getting in roughly 20 hits per WS, that's 4000 damage from autoattacks, and then my Kleos is going to do somewhere between 4000 and 10000, depending on what I'm fighting. Since we're going with "fodder", we're going to go towards the 10k mark, and reduce it to 7.6k since I assume you don't have Terpsichore.

This means that in 30 seconds it would take to do enough attacks from 0 TP to get enough TP to do Pyrrhic Kleos, followed by the roughly 4 seconds the Kleos will take, there should be about 12k damage being dealt.

That's not counting any haste, so I guess I should revise that. Assuming capped gear haste and merited haste samba up, with, again, 35 dual wield, you're looking at just under 17 seconds of autoattacks to WS, and then ~4s for the WS. So, again, if whatever you're fighting has less than 4kHP, it shouldn't be living to see a WS, and if whatever you're fighting lives long enough to take more than 12k damage from AAs + WS one could argue it's moving out of the fodder category.

I never made a taean headpiece with m.acc on it, so I went with what had the highest INT on it- I should probably do that, but I can't justify it with how often I don't use VF :/

i'm pretty sure thaumas head's m.acc compared to anything with stat vomit might be a bit outdated, which is why I don't use it

So... let me get this straight. 5.9523=5.4945? You've dropped your average rounds to WS there by almost 10% (you're not accounting for TP return on WS, but it comes out fairly close either way). Even if it's not a consistent improvement (probabilities woo), you're still killing that trash mob faster on average with Thaumas. Same deal if the mob doesn't have enough HP to survive TP phase: you get to switch to the next mob and oneshot them sooner.

5<x<6 attack rounds required to WS equals six attack rounds required to weaponskill.

You see, in reality, there aren't 'partial' attack rounds. Math, however, allows such abstraction for statistical purpose.

...You know what? I'm not doing this right now. Not over a point of discussion that was already hashed out by 2007. Please, go find a free statistics course and educate yourself.

The highest INT item in your possession at the time, you meant? Because it's not the highest INT item DNC gets access to.

Also, is INT part of the Macc calculation for Violent Flourish? We all know macc is, but INT? Was it ever tested?
And do not forget you need normal Acc as well.
As far as I remember, please someone correct me if I'm wrong, VF stun has two different accuracy checks.
The first is a normal physical damage accuracy check, just like a standard melee attack.
Step accuracy (like the feet you used) does nothing for this.
Once the first step is passed, there's a second check concerning the "stun" effect of Violent Flourish, which relies on Magic Accuracy.
VF has a pretty high magic accuracy naturally, but adding more sure helps.

I'd dare to say a good VF set should have a decent balance of both acc and macc.
Altough, of course, it kinda depends on what you're fighting.
For low level stuff acc is probably not needed, it could be good to focus on Macc alone I guess?
For mid-high level stuff I think balance is probably the way to go.
For really high level stuff... it's probably useless to rely on VF because it's likely not going to work very great, but in such a situation I think it should have at least as much acc as your currently selected melee set.


Concerning physical stats (like INT) helping with macc I'd love to see some tests showing this evidence. I never knew it was part of the VF magic accuracy formula.

Yeah, bad assumption on my part about the int theory- there is a high chance that it has nothing to do with it, so to be safe i'll work on that taean hat!

taken from BGwiki...

I never worried about accuracy for my set tbh- it's pretty much found on all the pieces of gear afterall

also, the feet in that set don't have step accuracy, unless you meant the headpiece...? Iuitl Gaiters NQ/+1 are m.acc +15

Yeah why the *** did I write "feet"? I apologize.
I didn't know about the +100 natural acc bonus. I'm a bit skeptic, where is relevance of that test?
Altough it's not that unlikely in the end, other abilities have similar properties so I guess it wouldn't be that surprising for VF to have a natural +100 physical acc bonus.

Check the VF page on BGwiki for the 2 sources!

Byrth level synced test looks solid enough and very convincing; thanks for pointing that out.

Skimming through, quick comments:

* Ipetam literally cannot be augmented with both DMG+ and Delay- at the same time. Unless both JP Wiki and BG Wiki are lying to me.

* Try Kamihr Raaz for less fodder-y, albeit still fodder-y targets or slightly weakened Serac Rabbits for something resembling CP mobs. Especially the latter will favour gear with STR a lot more, because of likely uncapped fSTR.

* Same conditions, but with capped accuracy (I fix that by using sushi, because I prefer things like this to be more real), Odium + Nibiru C15 > Odium + Rhadamantus for me by +43 dps on CP targets, +26 DPS on an unrealistic Tojil, +42 DPS on Kamihr Raaz. Granted, that's with close to "perfect" Taeon, but I can't imagine that gap to close in favour of Rhadamantus completely with crap Taeon.

* Nibiru C (under some circumstances I don't fully grasp, B is better even; I'd expect B15 > C15 when fSTR is capped, but even when it is, C15 pulls ahead at times...) is a powerhouse. I fail to understand why it was so bad in your setups.

* On the other hand, I can't get Rhadamanthus to work without resorting to "I really need this accuracy, because reasons". And even then, even Izhiikoh seems to be better.

* Random image spam. Absolutely not representative, because gear sets likely are not optimised for non-(AM3 Terpsichore).

https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/static.huydinh.eu/ffxi/loldnc_20150613_1.png

https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/static.huydinh.eu/ffxi/loldnc_20150613_2.png

* Quantifying Ipetam's value for SC damage is rather difficult, especially when taking Reverse Flourish into account. Ipetam has 131 DMG at best, no further WSC, so it's contributing 131 to WS base damage. Odium has 113 DMG, 13 STR, 13 DEX, which is 116.25 WS base damage for uncapped fSTR and before WSD, so it's 116.25 + 6.5 = 122.75 for Evisceration, 116.25 + 5.2 + 5.2 = 126.45 for Pyrrhic Kleos and Rudra's Storm. There are more things favouring Odium slightly, but some of them don't even affect WS damage: more ATK, better delay, AE on things that can be AE'd. I still cannot see a reason to even try and augment an Ipetam, especially these days with Nibiru around. Shorter cycles = more (and more likely) Skillchains. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm underestimating Ipetam, but it's very unlikely I'm underestimating it enough for it to actually be useful.

I admit being *** lazy. ffxiah.com gear sets absolutely are not helping me with that, because it is a *** pain in the butt to "rotate" gear sets. I need to find a way around that.

Dont listen to ^ that dude. The only thing his dnc can use is an earth staff(believe me, I seent it) and the only math he calculates involves his big toes(Havent seent that, but BELIEVE IT!).

Let's try this again...

Hume, /Sam, Haste Samba, No Food, Closed Position 5/5, 24% Magic Haste (Trust Haste1+VMarch)

I used a very basic TP set for returning players like myself:
4/5 Moderately Augmented Taeon
Horos Feet+1
Charis Feather/Neck
Patentia Sash
Dual Wield Earrings
Rajas/Eponas/ToeTap



Key
Iz: Izhiikoh
Ip: Ipetam(+15dmg,10acc/att)
At: Atoyac(Crit/OAT)
Od: Odium
Rh: Rhadamanthus
Ni: Nibiru Knife C15
Serac2: Sole Sushi, Honed Tathlum, Ej Necklace

Nibiru definitely jumps into the conversation, but not enough to justify the 12M price tag of 6 Eschalixer +2, and I suppose the same could be said for Ipetam. (12M would get you 17 +2 stones or 46 +1 stones on Asura as of this post)

@Skudo
ItemSet 335867
I pulled your set from the Screenshots.
Is this what you found to be optimal in your spreadsheets?
Better question, since your sheet is obviously more up to date, can you upload/share it? I just started inputting Maculele and Warhide last night, until then I had been going off the OP of the thread for optimum sets. Thanks for the response, obviously it helped a ton in getting the numbers more accurate.

I haven't tried finding the "optimal" gear sets yet. That's what I use personally, which in turn means it's tailored towards Terpsichore with AM3, so some of the gear choices might be not optimal.

For the sake of simplicity, I'll just assume exactly the same TP and WS sets for all the following weapon combinations. Furthermore, I am not assuming those sets are "optimal" for any purpose.

Also, ffxiah.com gear sets are borked for me. I can't create any new ones. Well, I can, but I can't edit them, so they are empty. Whatever, *** that.

Setup:



TP gear

- / - / - / Ginsen
skormoth mask / asperity necklace / dudgeon earring / heartseeker earring
maculele casaque +1 / taeon gloves / rajas ring / Epona's ring
toetapper mantle / windbuffet belt +1 / taeon tights / horos toe shoes +1

WS gear (Pyrrhic Kleos)

- / - / - / floestone
rawhide mask A15 / fotia gorget / bladeborn earring / steelflash earring
rawhide vest A15 / taeon gloves / Ifrit ring +1 / Ifrit ring +1
vespid mantle / fotia belt / taeon tights / rawhide boots D15

Augmented gear

Atoyac: "Store TP"+5, Occasionally attacks twice.
Ipetam: DMG+15, Accuracy+15, Attack+15.
Taeon: STR+7, DEX+7, Accuracy+20, Attack+20, "Triple Attack"+2.
Toetapper Mantle: "Dual Wield"+4, "Store TP"+4. (+5 doesn't exist for me.)

Results

I will always main-hand the weapon with higher DMG.

Kamihr Raaz

	Atoyac	Ipetam	Izhiikoh	Nibiru Knife B15	Nibiru Knife C15	Odium	Rhadamanthus
Atoyac		1130.713	1122.881	1132.148	1127.884	1121.297	1076.620
Ipetam		1093.935
Izhiikoh		1122.235				1112.887
Nibiru Knife B15		1155.510	1139.277	1160.697	1155.834	1135.788	1101.274
Nibiru Knife C15		1145.575	1135.096	1155.834	1152.791	1131.929	1101.516
Odium		1113.050
Rhadamanthus		1091.479	1083.775			1081.936

Tojil

	Atoyac	Ipetam	Izhiikoh	Nibiru Knife B15	Nibiru Knife C15	Odium	Rhadamanthus
Atoyac		529.379	525.401	532.478	539.328	532.521	506.552
Ipetam		487.128
Izhiikoh		523.182				526.003
Nibiru Knife B15		538.873	532.170	543.140	551.253	537.145	517.082
Nibiru Knife C15		543.953	540.913	551.253	558.006	543.024	525.842
Odium		524.366
Rhadamanthus		510.164	506.254			512.835

Soundspitter Bat (124)

To be realistic, I am helping the hit rate for off-handed Atoyac by swapping in ej necklace for asperity necklace and honed tathlum for Ginsen where needed. In that order. In some cases, it will not cap hit rate, but I guess Rhadamanthus needs some help... ;-p

	Atoyac	Ipetam	Izhiikoh	Nibiru Knife B15	Nibiru Knife C15	Odium	Rhadamanthus
Atoyac		792.343	795.728	787.981	808.467	805.801	763.451
Ipetam		753.908
Izhiikoh		803.279				808.093
Nibiru Knife B15		826.601	815.994	831.184	844.085	823.735	792.672
Nibiru Knife C15		832.855	828.738	844.085	855.694	836.859	806.688
Odium		804.786
Rhadamanthus		783.867	777.896			788.061

I used this spreadsheet to find the numbers above: https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/static.huydinh.eu/ffxi/2015-06-13/DPS+Calculator+-+Dnc.xls

It does not account for Job Points or Gifts though, so take numbers you get from there with a huge jar of salt. And keep in mind that those spreadsheets, while pretty sophisticated, are not the absolute authority on what's good, what's better, what's worse.

Oh, and I saved this for the closing note: Nibiru Knife only requires 3 Eschalixir +2 to cap. ;-p

First off, thank you very much for the spreadsheet, saved me a ton of work, I appreciate it.

Impressive... but


On the left is your build with Sole Sushi.
On the right is my build with Red Curry Bun.

The catch is my set doesn't require:
Nibiru Knife x2 (Sensual Sandy x?)
Nibiru Augs x2 (Echa+2 x6; 12M)
Maculele +1 (Chloris, REM x13, 2.1M)
Skormoth Mask (Urmahlulu x?)
Windbuffet +1 (5.5M)

So... Roughly 20M and infinite hours cheaper?

On top of that my WS's are about 600dmg stronger, and again, when factoring in Climactic Rudra's, and solo-darkness... I'm not sure how far that will actually go.

Having said that, Patentia + Augments could easily match that cost, and you won't look near as 1337. I suppose it depends on whether you're starting from scratch, or already sitting in Augmented Taeon. Personally, I've already started working toward your set, finished the +1 body while writing this up!

Again, I know you're a Terpi owner, so obviously none of this applies to you, and you're helping out of kindness, so I want to reiterate how much I appreciate that. Thank you.

Sushi on anything low enough is stupid, obviously.

My point in less internets^Wrude: Eat Pizza (+1) and suddenly, it makes my set look better again. You just can't make me overshoot accuracy by that far while pretty much landing on exactly capped hit rate yourself. ;-p

Windbuffet's probably something you should have anyways, so it's a little silly to be including it in a price difference.

I un-lazied a bit and added Job Points bonuses for things that can be added to the spreadsheet somewhat easily.

JP-related things it knows about:

* Flourish II effect for Building Flourish.
* Flourish III effect for all Flourishes III.
* Grand Pas damage bonus.
* Bonuses to Accuracy, Attack, Critical Hit Damage, and Dual Wield granted by Gifts.

Other things that have changed:

* Haste spell tier can be set. (Haste II! Finally!)
* CHR bonuses for Flourishes III + WS.
* Augments for Taeon gear now all are STR+7, DEX+7, Accuracy+20, Attack+20, and ("Triple Attack"+2 or "Dual Wield"+5). Instead of the augments I personally had, because some of them were... gimp-ish. >.>
* Simiarly, Toetapper Mantle augments are somewhat "maxed" now.

I don't know if the Grand Pas bonus adds to damage before or after fTP; I'm applying it before fTP now. Which means it's possible that the spreadsheet is overestimating the Grand Pas bonus. Jar of salt blabla.

You can find it here: https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/static.huydinh.eu/ffxi/2015-06-19/DPS+Calculator+-+Dnc.xls

On another note, would it bother anyone if I removed one of the item sets for each thing, making it "Powered by *** RNG"; "*** that RNG, I'm not gonna do that!"; and maybe "I am new to this, where do I start?" gear only? I want to reduce the number of gear sets I have to maintain, because ffxiah.com totally isn't motivating me with them...

I've put in a forced delay estimator so people don't overvalue the Tier 2/3 flourishes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/az3sabjhicvjvdr/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Dnc.xls?dl=0


It adds a "JA Efficiency" category on the main page, which is a number in delay units. I set the default to 80 (1.33 seconds), because that's realistically the lowest that it can be. If you do not want to be penalized for using JAs, you can set it to 0 and it should be the same as it used to be.

I also added an edit history tab.


The main thing the sheet needs is to have its TP system updated from 100 to 1000.

Playing around with your sheets Byrth and noticed you had Rawhide Body as your TP piece. Started playing around, and sure enough it beats Taeon in high haste situations. So when updating my sets last night I kind of ran into an issue. Are we at the point where High Haste and Max haste are the same exact thing, because we're at the delay cap under both scenarios?

Mote's .lua lists high haste as 34%. 2 marches or haste1 + march + samba.

The spreadsheets show, that there is no damage gain beyond that tier though. A 2nd march, or even haste2, shows not gain (except oddly enough to WS only?) For whatever reason, adding haste 2 or march 1 to these scenario's increases my WS damage by 25 damage. Maybe that's the JA delay in effect or something.

Regardless, main question is, am I correct in the assumption that High Haste and Max Haste are actually no different for Dancers?
Are you guys using an alternate .lua that breaks down our haste tiers more accurately for Dancers?

*Also interested in any information you have on that Enforcer's Body you also had in your WS set. I see that it's an Escha HELM NM, but that's about all I could find.

I quit before Escha. That stuff is all from Skudo. My versioning is already failing!

The reason additional Haste improves your WS damage is probably due to TP overflow.

I don't use Mote's files, so I don't know where its actual Haste tiers are. I personally distinguish between these tiers:

25% (Haste + Haste Samba)
40% (Haste II + Haste Samba)
43.8% (capped magic Haste, but no Haste Samba for whatever reason)
"Capped" (Haste II + Haste Samba + March)

As far as increased WS damage goes, the gain most likely comes from BRD Empyrean armour; adding Marches to an otherwise delay reduction capped setup only adds 0-5 DEX, which does not affect effective delay, at all, but it does increase WS damage. No idea why Haste II shows that effect though, tbh.


I don't have an Enforcer's Harness; I don't even know what dorps it. ;-(

Do you use gearswap?
Would you be willing to share your .lua?
I always assumed the haste tiers are handled within the includes/utilities/etc files.