The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

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2010-06-21
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The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
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 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-05-31 13:13:00  
Yeah, valid point. I should have clarified that I meant fully solo situations. I like running dyna on DNC, so I love that body. Makes it exceptionally easy to cap delay reduction solo.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-05-31 13:59:36  
Creaucent Alazrin said: »
FaeQueenCory said: »
The ONLY thing I would disagree with Oraen is the usefulness of the empyrean body. And it's only a very slight disagreement too.
Given Trusts, that 10/11% DW hurts you more than it helps you. (Even moreso if you cap gifts... Even MORE when they double job point categories... Which they said is either June or July... idr which.)
The only place where the Maculele body is "good" is Dynamis or Salvage. (And one could argue that increasing one's kill speed in Dynamis is actually bad. Though only with respect to going for JA procs.)

So it really comes down to a personal taste where you want your DW. Personally, I prefer Patentia+JSE cape since both also counteract any slight overflow with having Store TP. They also offer Acc and atk. Which Maculele body has none of.

Not really they did say when solo so you won't have magical haste though if you have trusts out you would need both brds to cap magical haste so with the body the DW you get should still cap you.

Maculele body costs more to make than the DW is likely to make you back from salvage until the end of time.

Making expensive sets for marginal improvements in content you easily farm for money seems...misguided.
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-05-31 14:08:55  
I'd have to disagree with that... 25 memories, which are 70k on my server, as well as the body upgrade item, 400k. That equals 2.15m, which is less than the price of a 119 relic piece. I really don't know how that amount would be greater than just a few salvages, let alone all of the ones you've run...

Just checked on Bahamut as well, and it's barely more expensive. So, I have to ask...wut?
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-05-31 14:19:53  
How much time would using maculele as opposed to taeon shave off a run? How would you use that time to get more money?
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-05-31 14:29:36  
Hard to say any exact number, to be honest, but 12 dual wield is pretty strong when it comes to situations where you haven't capped delay reduction. Definitely stronger than 2 TA or 5 DW from Taeon, especially when you don't need to sacrifice any other Taeon pieces to hit cap. It would definitely lead to faster clears, but I wouldn't be able to give anything exact. Faster clears won't make more money from that run, no, but it allows you to get out sooner and head on to the next run or something else for money. I feel that the approximate 2m is worth it overall, particularly if you do solo events often, but to each their own.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-05-31 15:19:54  
If you care that much, you could use chairs +2 and not really notice a difference.

Edit: charis, autocorrect.
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By Kuraneko 2015-05-31 18:55:10  
Question on figuring out your Dual Wield number? In the chart in the guide it has a breakdown of haste% rec. to how much DW you'll need. Does that take into account DNC's 30% they get? or is the number listed in this chart what you need to hit through gear?

IE: If DNC innate DW is 30% you only need 1% in DW if you're getting 15% magic haste? It seems weird to me and I feel like I should be reading it as the 31% in the chart means i need 31% through gear regardless of innate DW%

Magic Haste Additional Dual Wield required to cap delay reduction Situation
0% 40% Forever alone with no source of magic Haste at all.
15% 31% Haste I effect only.
30% 14% Haste II effect or Indi-Haste / Geo-Haste only.
36.4% 1% Haste II effect + Trust NPC Advancing March.
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-05-31 19:43:08  
The chart says additional dual wield required.
 Bahamut.Malothar
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By Bahamut.Malothar 2015-05-31 21:21:08  
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
How much time would using maculele as opposed to taeon shave off a run? How would you use that time to get more money?

That's a silly argument for anything in this game. Why should a mage get more MAB, why should a DD maximize their DPS, why should a mage keep Dia II up full time, etc, if in the end, the time you save won't be used for more of something?
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 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2015-06-01 03:40:37  
Okay, took a year off and I've come back. Unfortunately my Gearswap files are old, and the masterfile from BG is also old. I can't copy/paste my sets as they use an older format it seems, and out of date names for gear. Rather than go through it one by one, I was hoping someone could share their up to date .lua file with all the Taeon gear? Would save me a chunk of time.

Okay, for returning Dancers like myself, here is an extremely basic GearSwap update of the general Dnc.lua from BG, by Mote. It essentially just uses 3-4 sets, repeated multiple times, to make it easy to read for people who may get overwhelmed (like me) trying to go through each set individually, and I pretty much used each gear set as listed in the OP of this thread, for updated gear. Not all of it, but the stuff I expect most returning players to easily get their hands on, and then you can edit 1-2 pieces as you go, rather than trying to do what I just did, and editing 20 entire outdated sets that Mote had listed.

Anywho, here's the the welcome back gearswap:

I made a few customizations to this, that some people may want to get rid of.

#1: I still use Anwig Salade for my Waltz' but only if I'm engaged. Therefor on line 113 you'll see this:
sets.precast.Waltz.Idle = set_combine(sets.precast.Waltz, {head="Etoile Tiara +2"})

All that means is, if I'm engaged, use the recast head piece, but if I'm idle, use the potency head piece. Some people use potency all of the time, simply delete that line, and put your potency piece in the main waltz set just above.

#2: Line 602, Auto-Presto usage. Uses Presto job ability, only when it's needed. (1 or 2 finishing moves, but not 3,4 or 5). I don't know why but Mote's didn't work for me, I used my old one which still works fine. If you don't want Presto to work automatically, delete those ~12 lines.

Hopefully this helps people recently coming back, get a head start on their gearswap files.

On a related note, can anyone attest to the accuracy of the current HQ3 sets, from 30% magic haste and capped magic haste being the exact same? I only have limited Trust access, but with Joachim giving Victory march (9%) and NPC Whm giving Haste1 (15%) combined with Haste Samba (10%), I break the first gearswap threshold at 34%. But would still leave me in the 24% range based on the OP chart, which would require about ~19% Dual Wield I assume? But the gearsets are identical from the 30% and capped gear sets. I haven't touched the DPS sheets yet, but I assume that Suppa, combo DW earrings, Patentia, or Charis neck would actually be more beneficial. Can anyone verify if I'm crazy or just dumb? Tomorrow, I'll probably download and dive into the new Byrth spreadsheets.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-06-01 06:31:27  
Bahamut.Malothar said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
How much time would using maculele as opposed to taeon shave off a run? How would you use that time to get more money?

That's a silly argument for anything in this game. Why should a mage get more MAB, why should a DD maximize their DPS, why should a mage keep Dia II up full time, etc, if in the end, the time you save won't be used for more of something?

Because doing those things would help a player or group of players complete content they may otherwise fail, or at the very least assist them in anything they do on that job, as opposed to this, which is literally only going to be used in trivial cash farming.

I can't believe you guys are having a hard time with this, seriously.
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By Lsu101205 2015-06-01 06:42:52  
Although I 100% agree with your mindset, at the same time 2mil is truely miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Ive spent more money on lockstyle pieces, atleast this piece has use lol.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-06-01 07:02:57  
And it would be totally defensible if it had any measurable impact on anything at all.

It would make more sense to, say, spend that 2 mil basic-kitting out a job you don't normally play for one event where it's really good and DNC is not.
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-06-01 07:23:29  
I'm not having a hard time with your argument. I see where you're coming from, I just disagree with your view. That's all. For me, every bit of efficiency matters, even in smaller content where not everyone may see it as worthwhile. I run salvage and Dyna often enough to where I feel justified in my decision to gear appropriately for them. And the bump in stats from reforging to 119 is fairly significant, particularly in defensive bonuses. For me, it was worth the cost, but that's not to say it will be the same for everybody.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-06-01 08:11:58  
Personally I'm more concerned with the inventory space, but the cost is easier to quantify for the sake of those reading this.

Regardless, 2 mil would be enough to buy whatever you need to kit out THF if you lean on Dynamis that much.
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By Lsu101205 2015-06-01 10:36:33  
Is the difference between THF and DNC that much in Dyna?

Given DNC/000 can get TH2 the kill speed difference + white proc chance seems that it would equal if not surpass thf in dynamis.

Although I could be completely off base.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2015-06-01 11:00:41  
Yeah, if you want to use Gorney, I guess.
 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2015-06-03 21:36:08  
Lsu101205 said: »
Is the difference between THF and DNC that much in Dyna?

Given DNC/000 can get TH2 the kill speed difference + white proc chance seems that it would equal if not surpass thf in dynamis.

Although I could be completely off base.

You aren't wrong. DNC is equally good compared to THF in Dyna, in my experience. Killspeed advantage and PK not getting nerfed like Rudra's did is pretty sweet. It's possible to farm 550-650 currency as DNC/THF. I don't do DNC/00 just because I don't like the inconsistency so I can't speak to that.
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 Bahamut.Flareon
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By Bahamut.Flareon 2015-06-04 16:40:02  
I have been reviewing my Violent Flourish set and a little doubt came up. Can I actually change gear with M.Acc status by gear with INT since 1 INT = 1 M.acc? I have been using Perception Ring (macc +6) but if i could trade Macc by INT i'd pick a Shiva Ring (INT +8 NQ). Any thoughts?
 Carbuncle.Conini
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By Carbuncle.Conini 2015-06-04 17:29:13  
Hello Flareon, here's a VF set if you're interested:

ItemSet 335717
(Perception Ring in lieu of Weatherspoon unless ofc, you have it)

also, I don't think it works like that... after you hit a certain cap, there's diminishing gains from stat vomit... pretty sure it's something like: 2 int = 1 m.acc (if not, slightly worst)
 Bahamut.Flareon
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By Bahamut.Flareon 2015-06-04 17:55:04  
Uhm... my set is pretty much the same as yours, put aside the fact that my Aput Mantle is NQ and i'm wearing Taeon Chapeau and the new Rawhide Trousers (native Macc 20). It's a pretty solid set, but since i'm always trying to improve it, i came up with this INT idea... but you're right... INT relation to macc decreases depending not only to the statvomit but also to the difference between our INT and target's...
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By Voren 2015-06-04 18:12:57  
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
I don't do DNC/00 just because I don't like the inconsistency so I can't speak to that.

I agree with the consistency part. I've gone in twice with sub job locked, once with a party that had THF and the other to try it solo. Other than going in with at least one THF or having gear that grants TH it's not really wise to DNC/0.

Seeing a white proc does make a sticker peck out a bit though, then the 100 piece drop is spoogetastic.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2015-06-04 18:59:49  
Curious what people are using for PDT sets.
Currently using/augmenting towards this:

ItemSet 335721

Excluding Iuitl you're at 20%
Dark Ringx2 6% = 32%
Iuitlx4 3% = 44%
Iuitlx4 4% = 48%

D.Ring makes it easy if you've got one, and I think you could reasonably drop 1 piece of Iuitl for whatever is our best DD piece currently is.
I was considering Mermans Earringx2 for -4% MDT.

Although to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I'd be super tanking like this, but was having some fun with the new Body Piece today and threw this together. Not sure if the Defense loss from better gear, is worth the added PDT of Iuitl, but the equation I found said yes, but not sure it can be trusted.
 Carbuncle.Conini
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By Carbuncle.Conini 2015-06-04 19:07:05  
Bahamut.Flareon said: »
Uhm... my set is pretty much the same as yours, put aside the fact that my Aput Mantle is NQ and i'm wearing Taeon Chapeau and the new Rawhide Trousers (native Macc 20). It's a pretty solid set, but since i'm always trying to improve it, i came up with this INT idea... but you're right... INT relation to macc decreases depending not only to the statvomit but also to the difference between our INT and target's...

Yeah i still need to get Rawhide trousers- i've never seen a pair drop :( my headpiece could be much better too, but I can't justify making a m.acc taeon head... idunno why not
 Valefor.Madranta
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By Valefor.Madranta 2015-06-04 20:44:42  
Asura.Cambion said: »
Curious what people are using for PDT sets.

I personally only use Dark Rings, Twilight and Mollusca. My thought process is that anything that's wrecking me hard enough to warrant more PDT is likely to also need the Accuracy that my Taeon is augmented with. If I don't hit, I don't get TP to cure myself.

Now that I look at it, I'm starting to question Mollusca Mantle over Toetapper. Basically you're looking at -5% DT vs 10 Evasion, 10 Subtle Blow and 20 Accuracy. Against high magic damage Mollusca obviously wins, but against physical and bad TP moves that Eva and Subtle Blow shouldn't be underestimated.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2015-06-10 00:17:14  
I understand Mote's .luas are a bit outdated, but does anyone know, or is there a list, of what qualifies as 'Fodder' to trigger those sets? I was just going to delete it, but the dps sheets show an advantage to using Thaumas body + Focal Orb, but I'd only use this combo on genuine Fodder. Curious if it's defined anywhere.
I did a search within the Global, Utilities, Mapping, Include, SelfCommand, and modes files, but they all came up empty for 'fodder'.
 Asura.Ivlilla
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-06-10 01:06:00  
Asura.Cambion said: »
Curious what people are using for PDT sets.

I current am using Twilight Torque, Horos Casaque +1, Umuthi Gloves, Vocane Ring, Defending Ring, Mollusca Mantle, and Flume Belt as my PDT set. That provides -39%PDT. I plan to get, as soon as I can get around to getting them, a Lithelimb Cap, and a path C pair of Qaaxo Tights, which would bring the PDT up to -47%. Combined with Fan Dance, and you're looking at a minimum of -56.7% PDT.

If you don't have a Defending Ring, an augmented Dark Ring can be substituted. Same for the Vocane, since I understand there are other choices that other people find more useful. Horos Casaque +1 you should have anyway for Violent Flourish if nothing else.
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-06-10 01:12:05  
If you don't need the accuracy from Horos body, Emet Harness +1 is -6 PDT and is usable on a ton of jobs.
 Asura.Ivlilla
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-06-10 01:22:37  
Asura.Cambion said: »
I understand Mote's .luas are a bit outdated, but does anyone know, or is there a list, of what qualifies as 'Fodder' to trigger those sets? I was just going to delete it, but the dps sheets show an advantage to using Thaumas body + Focal Orb, but I'd only use this combo on genuine Fodder. Curious if it's defined anywhere.
I did a search within the Global, Utilities, Mapping, Include, SelfCommand, and modes files, but they all came up empty for 'fodder'.

This might be a slightly unpopular opinion, but I would not use Thaumas for anything ever.

On things that qualify as fodder you're already going to be killing them so incredibly fast that the DPS increase from the Thaumas is not going to make much of a difference. On anything that doesn't die so fast anyway that the theoretical DPS increase from Thaumas would be useful, you have to consider the fact that what you are fighting is probably current end game content, and that you are losing lots of effective levels, along with defensive stats, by using Thaumas.

If the point of Thaumas is to increase your damage output, but it increases your damage output to the point that you gain the mob's attention and it kills you, you are doing less total damage over time because you spend time eating dirt. The other alternative is that you lose so much accuracy that you can't properly hit, and therefore the extra damage never appears.

Let me use two examples that I've done in the last couple of days.

Fighting Tojil, Thaumas body provides absolutely no benefit. If it does provide a significant DPS boost, you are now tanking, and being constantly stunned by Tojil. And you are now tanking in a non-ilvl body, and are missing roughly a hundred points of defense and 20/+ Vitality, which makes him hit you even harder. If you are wearing Thaumas body and not tanking, that means you are not doing as much damage as whoever is tanking, since no one ever brings a 'proper' tank to these things these days anyway, which means that for one reason or another you're not doing enough damage and need to carefully reconsidering your equipment. More multiattack means nothing if you can't hit because you have no acc gear on and have a 40% hit rate on Barney the Dinosaur.

Another example would be Camahueto. I do this fight with a friend tanking on PLD, and I routinely manage to pull hate off of them if I go all out. I must do the fight /THF so I can TA 3kTP Climactic Building Rudra's Storms off of them for them to manage to keep the ***'s attention. When I get its attention for more than a dozen seconds or so it usually kills me. It can hit me for several hundred damage, and can one shot me with one of its TP moves if I'm not in PDT gear with Fan Dance up, in which case you don't have Thaumas on because you have your PDT gear on, and you're not going all out in the first place because you don't want to draw the mob's attention which would force you to go into your PDT set, so why even bother with Thaumas in the first place?

Pretty much any time I see someone pull out Thaumas body on any high level end game content they either do abysmal damage because they can't hit, or they die because they do a lot of damage until the mob in question kills them when they find themselves the center of attention.

Theoretically, you will do more damage with it. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. In practice, things either die quickly enough so that it doesn't matter, or you will die quickly enough that you won't want to wear it.

Now, it could be my experience with people using that body piece in current end game content is limited to complete idiots, which I would not be surprised to find, as I have a very low opinion of most of Asura's players. However, if, in fact, virtually everyone I see using it is an idiot, then that in and of itself should say something.
 Asura.Ivlilla
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-06-10 01:25:27  
Sylph.Oraen said: »
Emet Harness +1

Emet Harness +1 is an absolutely horrible choice for a PDT set when you're not tanking due to the +10 Enmity on it. If you want PDT because "oh ***if this thing looks at me it's gonna kill me" then you don't want to go ahead and make it more likely to do that.

If you are tanking, the extra 2 points of PDT are merely icing on the cake that is the increased evasion, unity ranking accuracy, and the enmity.
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