Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

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2010-06-21
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Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-10-01 13:33:24  
Certainly not Dumb Sidra lol, I just like to pick on Kat and I know Sidra is a good Drg, Well maybe better than Just Good.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-10-01 13:36:02  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Where is the evidence that DRG is half of total DPS than a WAR (thats new to me)
You have 2 DPS, a DRG and a WAR. If the DRG's damage is boosted 5% by the Rhongomiant, the total group is only being boosted 2.5%. This results in saving 8.2 seconds on a fight you'll probably do less than 20 times in your life, that's almost impossible to lose to begin with. I didn't say DRG did half the DPS of WAR, but rather they were only responsible for half of the fight's damage. Realistically, they are less than half of the fight's damage as the WAR should be leading.

Quote:
The example mentioned was to point out the idea of exploiting Rho DPS and AG to benefit this long *** fight, you can't simply deny how AG affects the corse of fight sometimes and you can't deny that using Rho for Camm is better than using it on Trish.
It's not that Rho isn't better in this particular unique case, it's that the difference will never amount to anything meaningful. It's not a zerg fight where the extra seconds will ever cause a loss. You can do the exact same thing with Trishula and come up with the same result, so even though Rhong leads in that specific circumstance, it's not enough to make it a meaningful weapon.

Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Hell, I had been sitting on Schah for like 2 months until some nice dude on my server let me join his crew and finish the dagger off for me.
/wave

Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Am I dumb? I guess that's everyone's call to make on their own. But I certainly don't feel that way.
You made it understanding what it was. That's a whole lot different than trying to pass it off as a worthwhile use of time in general.

I would agree that someone who cannot reasonably consider Trishula and still wants to be a top tier DRG could strongly benefit from making Rhongomiant. It's just that, in most cases, Trishula is an equal or lesser amount of work for a greater weapon.
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-10-01 13:43:10  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Hell, I had been sitting on Schah for like 2 months until some nice dude on my server let me join his crew and finish the dagger off for me.
/wave

And this is why we have progress. Being nice and helpful to people.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-02 20:36:27  
separated some GEO spells from the others and allowing up to 4 to be selected, an escha option which gives all relevant buffs, also added a couple more pieces of gear at some requests

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7LcJujrpsg-TzBGZ3ZUWmhVQlk
open dist folder and just run the .exe
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-04 11:00:55  
made an extra output that only runs a 3 minute simulation. note that there will be much more variance involved and you could get a few hundred dps difference despite nothing changing. ideally you'd minimize variance while maintaining as much dps as possible. so gear with similar averages in the first output, like an stp option and a da option, the stp option would be a wiser choice, of course that all changes with buffs, debuffs, mob, and the rest of your gear.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-04 22:13:18  
made several QoL improvements throughout the day on my drg simulation, particularly several outputs of three minute simulations to show the range of variance you can have as well as a nicer stats page.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-05 10:10:58  
Tried out few settings for Rho and Trish in the simulation and I still hold the stance of:

  • These two weapons are very close to one another and the margin varies between (0.6%-3%)in simulation (BiS sets and Fighther's Roll) in favor of Trish and on spreadsheets its stretched to (1.5%-4.5%) (in my own sets) in favor of Rho and (0.5%-1.5%) in BiS set in favor of Trish.



  • Probably based on current trends of rolls, Trish will become easily aligned with Rho and even on top for that sole reason alone.



  • The moment Fighter's roll is used (which is the normal go to these days coupled with Sam Roll due to the nature of WS's used) Trish becomes on Top in Zerg situations and/or Sc Strats with 2%-3% (in my current set on Spreadsheet).



  • The idea of Stardiver sharing the same affinity to multi-hit as the recommended set for Rho (Empy Weapons in general) makes Rho a great weapon to obtain if you're worried about inventory and want to squeeze in DRG amongst the jobs you play with your group (you won't need to make room for a specific set for Trish), but some will definitely argue this stance and its 100% valid to do so.



  • But if the margin between them is that close, wouldn't it be wise to look on other aspects that these two weapons serve aside from the obvious DPS potential?
    Wouldn't 50 VIT account for something here? wouldn't it make things a lot easier in chaotic scenarios to have that kick to add more survivability? if this argument was shared before SE modified VIT/DEF formula I would disregard it too but thats not the case here.



  • One more aspect of this, is the pure (insane) white damage that Rho provides to DRG in scenarios where it becomes increasingly difficult to spam WS due to various factors (Amnesia comes to mind) and or bosses that take less damage from SC or multi-hit WS's?



These little intricacies in my opinion still push the narrative of building a Rho along side Trish if you're serious about DRG.

But if you have access to Aeonic clears, by all means just stick with Trish and let others worry about said intricacies.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-05 14:09:55  
i take it you didn't pay any attention to the 3 minute simulation outputs in the most recent version. the fact rho vs itself can have almos 25% difference between itself should tell you something, yeah trish could as well but it's not nearly pronounced since it has far less variance in both gear (going by spicy sets on bg) and functionality.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-05 21:54:20  
Honestly its exceedingly obvious that you just want to silence any outlook on the matter.

I repeat, DO NOT assume things about others without asking first.(its annoying and cringy)

I tried the latest 3 min simulation and saw the variations ... when I mentioned the percentages I took the average of them all that is provided by the simulation itself.

This self entitled righteousness is incredibly annoying and I was NOT directing any of my remarks to you spesificlly so stop thinking your the center of this forum ( YOU ARE NOT )

What I learned so far from you:

  • Spreadsheets are so bad because I said so.



  • Field trials are not credible because its not me who did it.



  • If you don't agree with me you're ignorant.



  • Im the king of everything DRG even though I never played it.



  • Simulations onry! But if anyone else uses them they are no longer credible!



  • My last AH history is March 2010



Im no longer interested in anything you say or provide, I share what I share because I want to share it and your view holds no value to me what so ever.

You repeatedly proven over the course of this debate that you lack any decency to properly construct a valid argument, your constantly strawmannirg most of your stances and trying to warp them to fit your narrative of self entitlement and if anyone dared to counter these arguments with evidence you're ready to dismiss it all and call them ignorant.

I don't even think that you ever played DRG yet you assign yourself the gaurdian for everything DRG.

News Flash, Im still using Rho in endgame content and it proved to be of a great asset wither you like it or not.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-05 22:01:10  
here's everything you just said that applies to yourself:

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Honestly its exceedingly obvious that you just want to silence any outlook on the matter.


Leviathan.Katriina said: »
your view holds no value to me what so ever.


Leviathan.Katriina said: »
You repeatedly proven over the course of this debate that you lack any decency to properly construct a valid argument, your constantly strawmannirg most of your stances and trying to warp them to fit your narrative of self entitlement and if anyone dared to counter these arguments with evidence you're ready to dismiss it all and call them ignorant.


And I don't care what weapon you use, I do care that you suggest someone build one because you say so using a tool you don't know how to use. Suggesting someone make a Rho because you think it's good when in reality it's a weaker weapon than trish, neither the sheet or my simulation take into account skillchains and you honestly believe that stupid 2% increase you have to play perfectly to maintain can't be made up with just a few random skillchains, you're delusional.


Leviathan.Katriina said: »
My last AH history is March 2010
lol, that's how I can tell you don't have anything worth a ***to say
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-10-05 22:05:30  
Austar is a pretty objective person and certainly doesn't consider herself (himself? I don't remember lol) to be any kind of center of anything.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-05 22:14:24  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
And I don't care what weapon you use, I do care that you suggest someone build one because you say so using a tool you don't know how to use.

What a moronic statement as always, I have ALL AG REA FOR DRG, and I test them out everyday in countless scenarios, I believe I'm qualified enough to say my opinion on them than you.
Spreadsheets came after when you decided that players reviews hold no value to you. and was provided as evidence to support when you didn't even bother to bring anything to the table.


Ramuh.Austar said: »
neither the sheet or my simulation take into account skillchains

isnt it funny when you discredit your own work and what is left now is actual field tests with others to see this factor and I did provide insight to it before?

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Trish Wins in Solo DPS and/or SC spam with others.



Ramuh.Austar said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
My last AH history is March 2010
lol, that's how I can tell you don't have anything worth a ***to say

Ever heard of irony?

K thanks, you win :)
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-05 22:17:55  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
isnt it funny when you discredit your own work and what is left now is actual field tests with others to see this factor and I did provide insight to it before?
I don't discredit my own work, I discredit you as a user of it.

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
What a moronic statement as always, I have ALL AG REA FOR DRG, and I test them out everyday in countless scenarios, I believe I'm qualified enough to say my opinion on them than you.
no, not really unless every single "test" was controlled.

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Trish Wins in Solo DPS and/or SC spam with others.
you mean literally every situation that exists?

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Spreadsheets came after when you decided that players reviews hold no value to you
no, just yours and your inability to properly use the tools available.

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Ever heard of irony?
i have, and you don't seem to know what it is.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-05 22:22:00  
Trying so hard to keep up with your BS...

Keep on bashing, prove my point even more.

You're the only one that can use simulations and spreadsheets and I don't.
Happy now?

Grow up!

Edit: For future reference, You Win in advance I know!
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-05 22:24:36  
you've made it very clear you can't use either tool or know how to interpret the results and i pity anyone that takes any piece of advice you have to share
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-05 22:26:03  
K

Please keep up, you're doing great :)
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-05 22:26:41  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Grow up!
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2017-10-05 23:19:25  
It really is pointless to debate best over things that a human can't do anyway.

If you have it already, use it. If you don't have it, make it, whatever it is. Spend less time worrying about ***you'll never replicate and do something constructive.

Until we start TASing XI everything is only as good as the user who wields it. No amount of spreadsheeting and simulating can make up for your slow reaction times and lag. (and bad whms)
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By Afania 2017-10-05 23:32:48  
Siren.Kyte said: »
Austar is a pretty objective person and certainly doesn't consider herself (himself? I don't remember lol) to be any kind of center of anything.


To be fair, in this entire discussion, despite the attitude Katriina did analyze the pros and cons of each weapon in multiple posts, many of them seem to make sense in many ways. On paper, at least.

Obviously FFXI theory crafting on forums may not reflect in actual results just because there are too many factors affecting them. For example we can talk about 3% dps difference between gears in X situations, but using the right gear doesn't change the fact that late engage for 5 sec, slow reaction or get unlucky with fotia proc = lose parse.

That doesn't we shouldn't analyze the pros and cons of each weapon. Because in the end of day, knowledge like this help us make better decision when it comes to gear selections, even if the difference is so small and effort to get them is huge. There isn't much we can do, nor discuss about RNG, engage speed, lag and engage speed. But we can at least do something about choosing better gears that appears to work better on paper in specific situations.

Because how I view theory crafting and dps discussion, I personally find it hard to agree with "such small increase is not worth the 250m" sort of statement. How one want to spend gil is subjective. But whether a weapon is 2% increase in specific situation or not is probably universal fact. Whats the point to discuss people's opinion on gil investment in a dps discussion?
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-07 13:06:47  
Its quite interesting seeing other players trying to convey the same message between Empy and Aeonic yet no one is trying to silence them :)

Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
tl;dr

The 2 weapons are extremely close. No one is saying make Masa over Dorji. Player input matters more than weapon choice.


Asura.Syto said: »
Like Ejinn said, sample size, player input, and mob output is important.




But when it comes to my own input on the matter and from (a player viewpoint/simulaton/spreadsheets) it becomes a national security problem and they have to fight over 2% and claim that Gil is wasted...

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
These two weapons are very close

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
These little intricacies in my opinion still push the narrative of building a Rho along side Trish if you're serious about DRG.

But if you have access to Aeonic clears, by all means just stick with Trish and let others worry about said intricacies.

#hypocrisy_at_its_best

Also:
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Where was that even mentioned, show me where anyone claimed that Rho is far beyond Trish! you're just fabricating claims that simply do not exist, so drop this attitude of strawmannirg things here.


TL;DR Gil Argument in a DPS debate holds zero value.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-07 13:47:42  
no you just miss the entire point and you're not worth it anymore. you can do whatever you want, nobody cares about that, it's when you try to make claims that aren't even true when it becomes an issue.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-07 15:36:37  
Point out exactly the point that I missed instead of virtue signaling your crap.
You're the one who's not even worth debating, so stop playing the hero here and move on. No one cares about anything here anyway so spare yourself this drama and leave it.

Typical patronizer.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-07 15:41:38  
i have several times. if you haven't gotten it yet, you won't now.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-07 15:43:55  
No You haven't, your argument didn't hold any merit.
And Again Proved nothing.
Live with it and carry on.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-10-07 15:46:21  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Point out exactly the point that I missed
The point is that the simulation doesn't include skillchain damage. As Trishula has higher WS damage and an inherent boost to skillchain damage, any skillchain damage will add more to Trishula than it does to Rhongomiant. This is easy logic to follow, and indicates that the simulation is actually slightly biased toward Rhongomiant.. which still loses.

Trying to argue that you don't need more gear for Rhongomiant is ridiculous, if you can't afford 6 gear slots for a TP set you have bigger problems than what weapon you should be using.

75 defense might be a 5-6% reduction in physical damage taken if monster isn't capping attack, but there's a reason almost all emphasis is placed on magic evasion gear. Meaningful damage from relevant content is almost all magic. If you really want to make that case, locking defending ring or loricate torque and keeping Trishula will STILL win over rhongomiant with a DD piece in the comparable slot in both damage dealt and damage reduction .

You've made no relevant point, and your posts only serve to illustrate that you're completely and utterly incapable of assessing any views contrary to your own.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-07 15:49:08  
mate we did mention that skill chains aren't accounted for using spreadsheets and simulations and resorted to talk about the field then he provided this feedback.
"Field needs to be fully controlled" and this is almost impossible to make.
So what else we can use to debate here? if everything so far proved nothing of the claim that Aeonic is far superior.
maybe player feedback should count for something here?

Edit from what I saw so far, none of you proved how superior Trish is to Rho, and the extra points i provided about VIT was to point the pros and cons in said weapon.
Im all for the debate as long as it hold a merit and concrete evidence.. why should I cater to what you feel or think when you can't prove it on paper or even in field.

Player feedback should be relevant weither you like it or not.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-10-07 15:53:01  
Player feedback is only as valuable as the player providing it. You're not giving objective numbers in controlled conditions, you're basically saying 'I feel this way, please agree with me'.

When accounting for everything we can and considering the things we can't, we can easily conclude that Trishula is better than Rhongomiant. Basic logic shows that assuming 0 AM3 downtime and 0 skillchain damage is going to help Rhongomiant more than it helps Trishula.

x - rhongomiant base damage in simulation
y - additional damage from skillchains
z - damage change from am3 lost

1.02x + (1.00~1.10)Y is always going to be better than 1.00x + Y +- Z. It's not that complicated, you're literally the only person here who does not get it.
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