Dear Brds Of The World, Please Read Me :3

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2010-06-21
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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Bard » Dear brds of the world, please read me :3
Dear brds of the world, please read me :3
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 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-18 22:06:46  
I posted this over at the OF, if you're inclined please hop over for a read, and like if you agree, and post any comments, and hopefully it'll get some official attention, and maybe some actual consideration.

Spoilered post if you're interested in reading w/o going to the OF:
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 Quetzalcoatl.Dreamingheart
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By Quetzalcoatl.Dreamingheart 2013-06-18 22:16:38  
I'm happy with the current way Carnwenhan works. If BRD didn't have the action time it currently had, I don't think I would have the heart to play this game anymore. I am presently working my way towards one currently, though months off from completion easily. I really can't wait to finish my Daurdabla and shift my focus towards Gjallarhorn. The only reason I play this game is the fact that I can be so busy on BRD and always have something uniquely strong to bring to the table. I've been playing for more than 9 years now, it's hard to find a reason to keep playing. If you're unsatisfied with Carnwenhan, I may suggest looking at making a melee/ws set for BRD, the weapon is very strong on its own and only plans to get stronger in an upcoming update. Mordant Rime is a surprisingly decent weapon skill with Gravity which I know will miss most of the time, but if you can find something to land it on the negative evasion it produces is always handy to add a bit more utility no matter how minute.

At the very least, very much congratulations on finishing your Carnwenhan, it's quite an achievement to build a mythic and you should be proud!
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 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-18 22:22:08  
Just out of curiousity, do you have a Daur90-99? Do you do endgame events often where bard swapping is required?

The world between a hardcore/endgame 90-99 Daur brd and a 2(or even 3song) brd that plays casually is so entirely different, it's not even comparable.

I like being busy, but having to nearly chain cast between parties can really wear on you. I would much rather my songs be lasting a little longer so I can be more helpful as a support.

Quoting myself here:

Quote:
In most endgame content, I need to keep up at least fifteen songs active at any given time, as most endgame content requires bard swapping. That doesn't include ballads on myself, which I usually need to cast, so I guess you can up that count to eighteen. If, for whatever reason, I'm the only bard in the alliance, that song count goes up to 21 with two whms to ballad. (4x songs on DD party 1, 4x songs on dd party two, 3x ballad on whm[twice, potentially], then 2x march/2x ballad on the mage/geo party for stuns).

21 potential songs. Twenty. One. At the bare minimum if I'm not ballading myself, it's 15. That isn't just keeping busy, that's borderline crazyness.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-06-18 22:48:07  
I don't think the duration increase on Daurdabla is even worth mentioning since you overwrite that song anyway, in fact it's more of a liability since you have to intentionally drop duration gear to ensure you can overwrite so it doesn't really give you anything more than the capacity to put up more songs but the price is having to sing 6 songs to get 4 up. Even with capped FC it does take a bit of time and while I don't have an endgame shell, I can imagine having to keep up 15+ songs at any time. Not even going in to dispels.

I agree that Carnwenhan should give you the capacity to keep N/T songs up full time. It's fairly close right now, but even if we managed to hit 10 minutes in duration, you need some safety zone to be able to rebuff before they wear, otherwise you need to sing extra songs to keep 3-4 up.

Now, I do have to say that while brd's mythic isn't amazing, it is pretty useful and one of the few jobs that can get use out of all 3 of their REM items. Hell, we can use all 3 to their full extent full time. So that is a benefit we can't over look and sadly, I'm sure SE will take that balance in to consideration.

I do hope they do it though, without gimping our empy song bonus.
 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-18 22:56:56  
Yeah, the duration on daur is kinda irrelevant all considering, I was just making a point with Daur and G-horn, two items that are both cheaper and significantly easier to make, Horn duration is +48, Daur duration is +36, and along comes Mythic with it's trainload of work and the duration is only +60. Just seems a little lopsided to me =/
 Asura.Fondue
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By Asura.Fondue 2013-06-18 23:00:17  
could not give less of a ***about carnwenhan
 Lye
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By Lye 2013-06-18 23:02:20  
Oh wow! Another "SE should" thread.

Your justification can be summarized as "mythics are hard, they SHOULD be better" correct?
 Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2013-06-18 23:03:54  
Be. Nice. Please.
 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-18 23:08:27  
Lye said: »
Oh wow! Another "SE should" thread.

Your justification can be summarized as "mythics are hard, they SHOULD be better" correct?

Actually, mythics are time consuming but not hard, and in the time it takes me to complete assaults, I could easily have the gil to finish 3.

Maybe read the thread before posting such sillyness.
 Lye
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By Lye 2013-06-18 23:09:16  
I read the thread. I don't see you present any other justification.
 Lye
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By Lye 2013-06-18 23:10:24  
In fact, I can think of 3 more useless mythics.
 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-06-18 23:46:10  
I think it's pretty nice for what it is. I'd welcome any improvement that we could get, but when you are jumping PTs all over the place, that extra minute can be a godsend.
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 Siren.Barber
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By Siren.Barber 2013-06-19 00:19:28  
I never got one, but isn't it a liability in rotations unless every bard has one? After getting horn/harp it seems like the main reason I didn't go after it is because someone told me it would mess up bard rotations since your songs would still have over 2 minutes remaining when the other bards would need to reapply buffs.

Then again maybe I just chose to believe that so I wouldnt have to do assaults again.
 Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger
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By Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger 2013-06-19 00:22:44  
I don't think alliance wide buffs would be good at all, most party setups are designed that each party needs specific songs anyway. I could see if a job ability like pianissimo let you cast your song on anyone in the alliance wouldn't be terribly game breaking.

A boost I think would be nice for carnwenhan might be song spellcasting time -15% or 20% at 99. Then instead of adding one more needed piece to inventory it would actually replace Felibre's Degue or Magian Staves or dreaded HP down sets and minstrel ring.
 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2013-06-19 00:23:33  
Lye said: »
In fact, I can think of 3 more useless mythics.
So what? Just because there are other useless mythics doesn't mean Carnwenhan doesn't warrant attention. Nagi has no place in this conversation.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-06-19 00:27:48  
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Lye said: »
In fact, I can think of 3 more useless mythics.
So what? Just because there are other useless mythics doesn't mean Carnwenhan doesn't warrant attention. Nagi has no place in this conversation.

'-' It does if you like informal fallacies!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_worse_problems
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By Creecreelo 2013-06-19 01:09:52  
While improvements to Carn would be nice, I must agree with some others here and say I don't think it truly needs it. It's way more awesome than it seems on paper, and I'm incredibly happy with mine!! @_@ I do believe that it's definitely one of the most underestimated mythic weapons. And it's such a fun DD weapon! Building the TP to 300% obviously sucks but the next 3min of AM3 is just so much fun and quite strong! And if you're smart about TP, it's not very hard to build the TP back up for AM3 again if needed.

Barber does bring up a great point in that it's incredibly helpful if all the rotating Brds have Carn, rather than just one of them having it. In our shell we have another REM Brd so we generally don't encounter the issue but tonight when doing Tojil we didn't have him and had to make do with a Brd who didn't have Carn. For the lesser NMs, the lower duration wasn't really an issue but it was troubling for Tojil and I wasn't really sure how best to fix it. I'll be damned if I'm giving up Carn just because the other Brd doesn't have one though. @______@

I really like Hidegger's idear of giving Carn Song spellcasting -%. Less inventory is always a plus and being able to have it in precast may be nice if ya get lag spike or somethin and gear doesn't change properly. I've always hoped Brd would get a JT that lowers song spellcasting, similar to Elemental Celerity, since it would be super nice to just save inventory but don't really see that happening... :(

Anyways... TLDR: Carn is already pretty awesome; any boosts to enhance Song Duration or w/e would be nice, but I don't think is really needed.
 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-19 01:14:26  
Yes, it can kinda mess things up if you're brd rotating and the other brd doesn't have one. Or, at the very least it makes swapping a lot less nicer than it could be, which is part of why I put it off so long.

One of the other brds in my linkshell is making one too, and the plan is to do assaults together, so hopefully we'll finish around the same time.

And it is pretty nice for what it is, and I'll continue making it even in the very likely 99.9% chance brd/carn is never changed. Still, brd in endgame can be pretty hectic, and a change somewhere would be nice.
 Odin.Sawtelle
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-06-19 01:23:42  
Whats the point Cali. You're just going to end up tossing it on the floor when you finish.

Edit: really though, I feel for brds in endgame.
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 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-06-19 01:33:11  
You know what would be a nice added effect? The ability to overwrite your own songs at any time.
 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-19 01:38:29  
Creecreelo said: »

Barber does bring up a great point in that it's incredibly helpful if all the rotating Brds have Carn, rather than just one of them having it. In our shell we have another REM Brd so we generally don't encounter the issue but tonight when doing Tojil we didn't have him and had to make do with a Brd who didn't have Carn. For the lesser NMs, the lower duration wasn't really an issue but it was troubling for Tojil and I wasn't really sure how best to fix it. I'll be damned if I'm giving up Carn just because the other Brd doesn't have one though. @______@

Totally not related to current topic, but! For us and brds in there, we generally don't re-do songs on Tojil, especially if WC doesn't hit SV, he usually dies or is under 3% before they wear off, and that's with me not using Marduk legs. He completely melts under 25% and we've learned the hard way what swapping at low percents can do (someone missing out on kill/plasm). Actually pretty sure if the fight lasts all too much longer than that, you're gonna be having issues with stuns anyways.
 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-19 01:46:29  
Valefor.Philemon said: »
You know what would be a nice added effect? The ability to overwrite your own songs at any time.

That too, and that's gonna be something that needs to be implemented if they ever do extend song duration. =/

Thought about adding that in there somewhere too, nothing more frustrating than slow invites or just ***happening and your mage getting hit with N/T DD songs, then N/T wearing off and only being able to stick 1 ballad up =/

Odin.Sawtelle said: »
Whats the point Cali. You're just going to end up tossing it on the floor when you finish.

Edit: really though, I feel for brds in endgame.

You just had to go there x_________x
 Odin.Zelphes
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By Odin.Zelphes 2013-06-19 01:50:56  
Valefor.Philemon said: »
You know what would be a nice added effect? The ability to overwrite your own songs at any time.

While I second this motion, all mythics suffer from this issue. AM3 for weapons specifically.

So far SE is unwilling to budge from this stance.
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By Creecreelo 2013-06-19 01:53:26  
Yar, I just thought of tonight since our Tojils did not go very well; we were trying to get many people clears who hadn't gotten them before. Anyway, I really don't think a mid-fight, second nitro song swap would've saved either of our Tojil attempts but the thought did cross our minds if we should do it.


Possibly fix for other Brd not having Carn: Switch up songs when doing second batch of Nitro songs?

After thinking through this, I think it would be best if the Carn Brd sang Scherzo (if the fight calls for it and if the first Nitro songs are being SV'd). Anyways, continuing on... Let's say the Carn Brd is singing SV nitro Madx2/Marchx1/Scherzo and the other is singing SV nitro Minuetx3/Marchx1. They would swap as normally and then if they need to reapply songs mid-fight (which I think is pretty much the only situation where this could be needed anyways?), the Carn Brd would now sing Minuetx3 (not a fourth because Scherzo should still be up for a very long time), and then the other Brd could cover Madx2/Marchx2.


If it's not dead by then, you're most likely screwed and other elements of the fight probably got messed up.
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By Creecreelo 2013-06-19 02:01:00  
Odin.Calipso said: »
Thought about adding that in there somewhere too, nothing more frustrating than slow invites or just ***happening and your mage getting hit with N/T DD songs, then N/T wearing off and only being able to stick 1 ballad up =/

And of course SE couldn't possibly allow for Pianissimo and Tenuto to stack to fix an issue like that... >.<
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 Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger
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By Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger 2013-06-19 02:08:27  
SV N/T songs with carn 9 min +, other brd SV N/T 6 min +. If you play that brd's songs at 5:45, w/e party you start with loses your 9 min duration SV'd songs for gimp songs and you also lower the number of songs to 5 until the swap finishes.
 Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger
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By Quetzalcoatl.Hidegger 2013-06-19 02:18:18  
If you were able to overwrite the other brd's songs while maintaining your original 4 songs, you'd only have to swap once and continuously rewrite the 8 songs w/o dropping. That's not the case though.
 Odin.Calipso
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By Odin.Calipso 2013-06-19 02:23:45  
Creecreelo said: »
Anyway, I really don't think Song swapping would've saved either of our Tojil attempts but the thought did cross our minds if we should do a mid-fight swap.


Do you not swap period or am I reading into that wrong?
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By Creecreelo 2013-06-19 02:35:30  
In this situation especially, the Carn Brd should really be using AF3+2 pants for buffs. I would really suggest all Carn Brds really just use AF3+2 pants for their buff songs pretty much always (at least Tojil, since that seems kinda the focus in discussion atm). Otherwise you're losing up to +8 Dex/Str/w/e, which would only make the fight go faster to begin with. I'm not entirely sure if non-Carn Brds should give up Marduk pants for SV Nitro songs though.

Like Calipso said earlier, it probably wouldn't be worth it to nitro swap mid-fight if Soul Voice doesn't reset as well. If it does, losing the other songs for 30~ seconds shouldn't be that much of a deal-breaker (could also have the non-Carn Brd sing Madrigals first, so Acc isn't lost on the transition).

I suppose if the group absolutely had to swap mid-fight, the non-Carn Brd could alternatively simply re-sing their songs with Nitro when the time comes, and swap with the Carn Brd who wouldn't be doing Nitro songs. Later if it's needed, the Carn Brd would then just nitro their songs again and swap like other Brd did before. Actually a benefit of this could be that it would be really easy to keep certain debuffs on the NM.
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