IiPunch - Monk Guide

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iiPunch - Monk Guide
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-17 17:47:22  
The point is that every job in the video is under utilized.

It's not a big secret that smite is not as good as it should be and torcleaver is pretty amazing (regardless of pld).

Monk isn't supposed to be a great strictly dps job, this video is a showcase of only dps.

PLD gets Empyrean aftermath, Ninja gets relic procs, MNK used Aeonic, and did not get to use counters (which -are- a big increase in damage)
This is just a statement about all things not being equal.
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By Afania 2018-02-17 17:52:27  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
No point in even mentioning it since you're so *** delusional, but the NIN also lost to the PLD. None of his videos showcase multi steps, and if the NIN deserves a better weapon, so does the MNK.


It's being discussed in another thread, creator purposely picked a target that doesn't take SC damage too well to show each weapons raw power.

Not saying the video is the only evidence of each jobs performance ceiling though.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-02-17 17:59:14  
I'm just saying the video isn't a good representation of everything, not just the NIN.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-17 18:03:39  
Sure, but it isn't a completely ridiculous comparison of jobs, since the argument here is that MNK provides some amount of higher survival in exchange for its poor DPS.

RUN and PLD are at the higher side of the spectrum of survival. NIN provides some tricks that allow it to survive where even a RUN or PLD would not.
We can only guess at the gear sets used, but they aren't completely outlandish. It is a far stretch to imagine that Counter would have changed the placement on the podium. Sange would have made a far more dramatic impact.

Assuming all shown jobs are to some degree under-utilized, the degree of under-utilization vary greatly between them, with MNK the least under-utilized of the pack.
Crunch the numbers. Take a look at the % other H2H weapons are ahead of Godhands. Don't forget that Empyrean/Relic procs work least well on H2H. Calculate the new outcome. It isn't impressive.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-02-17 19:53:38  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
That's a little hyperbolic.

It's not detrimental to take a monk just a /little/ slower.

We're talking seconds, to a small amount of minutes extra. hardly noticeable unless you're barely getting the wins in time. And if that's the case, monk certainly isn't your problem.

Could it be better, yeah, obviously. Is it -that- bad, no.

This is the most reasonable take.

Would you seriously tell an LS mate they can't come on MNK to something like a Dynamis farming run or an Omen NM, or any Escha NMs outside of WoC/Kirin/Reisenjima HELM that you're using melees for... but you'd be OK with them on another melee with similar quality gear? MNK isn't making a damn bit of difference in your results unless you're obsessed with shaving a handful of seconds off your kill time of Gin or whatever. I can't imagine even being able to have fun with people THAT min/max focused.

Yeah, if you're going for a melee zerg on one of the single digit number of hard Aeonic NMs, I get telling people they can't MNK. But seriously, outside of that, what the f content are people doing where bringing a MNK is gimping your damage so much that you are (a) losing (which like Eiryl mentioned, really says more about the rest of the group or general setup than blaming it on "OMG we brought a MNK that's why we lost") or (b) having to spend a major amount of extra time? I can't imagine that is really happening for anyone here.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-17 19:54:27  
I can't tell for certain that the NIN is throwing shuriken at all, now that I thought to check. It is possible that the NIN is so cobbled together, the subject is using an ammo incompatible with Daken. I wouldn't think it likely, given they have afterglowed Kikoku...
Would anyone able to read the log please confirm? Thank you!
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-17 20:03:06  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Would you seriously tell an LS mate they can't come on MNK...

Asura.Saevel said: »
...any friends that take a MNK are doing it purely out of pity and kindness.

No, if the run will support a leachy spot, of course not. But that LS mate isn't coming on MNK to compete on the parse or contribute in any meaningful fashion. That LS mate will be on MNK because of how you value said LS mate and not based upon the value of the job said LS mate is choosing.
Shouts will not ask for MNK. Shouts will not be impressed by MNK. Shouts would not be wrong to refuse a MNK and look for any other DD, including
Asura.Saevel said: »
a Staff DRG, a Dagger Ninja, an Archery SAM, a Club BLU, or a Scythe WAR.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-02-17 20:32:07  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »

The NIN was under-utilized. Blade: Ten to Blade: Metsu would have been a shift upwards

not sure how that (in isolation) would have helped
 
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By Asura.Zarduhasselfrau 2018-02-17 21:06:02  
So I've been reading about staff DRG and was wondering how staff is on MNK?
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-17 21:47:44  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Would you seriously tell an LS mate they can't come on MNK to something like a Dynamis farming run or an Omen NM, or any Escha NMs outside of WoC/Kirin/Reisenjima HELM that you're using melees for... but you'd be OK with them on another melee with similar quality gear? MNK isn't making a damn bit of difference in your results unless you're obsessed with shaving a handful of seconds off your kill time of Gin or whatever. I can't imagine even being able to have fun with people THAT min/max focused.

It's a *** ton more then a handful of seconds because your dealing half the damage of the full DD that you removed.

Typical six man pt

Tank
DD
COR
GEO
WHM
BRD

So your taking out the real DD and replacing them with MNK which is going to reduce your offensive capability 30~40%, and that's being generous. Your asking your friends to carry you, and they might because they are your friends, but don't take that as an indication of actual ability. The COR would probably end up out damaging the MNK if they could go full on.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-02-17 21:52:42  
Don't know about the accuracy of the video or gear used, but a PLD or RUN using full dps gear/JA has less survivability than a NIN casting utsusemi or a MNK. They might take less average damage, but they have greater death risk. The PLD doesn't even get a shield.
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By Bahamut.Negan 2018-02-17 21:54:33  
Asura.Zarduhasselfrau said: »
So I've been reading about staff DRG and was wondering how staff is on MNK?
It's really good if you /SMN to Mew
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-17 22:01:23  
Asura.Zarduhasselfrau said: »
So I've been reading about staff DRG and was wondering how staff is on MNK?

Staff in general sucks, I tried but couldn't make Retribution deal good damage and Full Swing sucks unless it's at 3K TP, and even then it's mediocre. Shattersoul might be better if it wasn't INT based and copied http://fTP. So yeah MNK only has ***WS options.

Changing VS in the same way they did CDC would be almost 40% damage increase and would fix the issues in the current meta. Would end up in the middle near the rest of the B string DD's.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-17 22:07:41  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Don't know about the accuracy of the video or gear used, but a PLD or RUN using full dps gear/JA has less survivability than a NIN casting utsusemi or a MNK.

This is incorrect, at least for the RUN. A RUN/SAM in full DD mode still has their runes, innate MDB, MEVD, Valliance, OFA, Battura, Tenacity and Inquartata. Going /SAM and focusing on Reso spam doesn't remove the horde of passive defensive bonus's RUN comes equipped with. That is one of the arguments for using a RUN DD in a fight where crippling status ailments are present.
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 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2018-02-17 22:08:02  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Don't know about the accuracy of the video or gear used, but a PLD or RUN using full dps gear/JA has less survivability than a NIN casting utsusemi or a MNK. They might take less average damage, but they have greater death risk. The PLD doesn't even get a shield.

Pflug would like to say hello, and valiance, and one for all, and battuta, and MEVA traits etc...
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-02-17 22:10:54  
Chance of death is only concerned with highest possible damage taken as compared to available health. A RUN in full offensive gear is obscenely vulnerable to physical when battuta is down. Unresisted magic will mess them up pretty badly too, albeit unlikely(did they add a guaranteed partial resist at some level of m.eva?).
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-02-17 22:13:14  
To be clear, I am not saying MNK compares to RUN in any way. RUN is undeniably the best DPS for almost all situations and has amazing side benefits.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-02-17 22:14:21  
Ten doesn't self skill chain so I doubt it would have out performed Metsu in that situation. I think the better choice would have been Blade: Shun with Heishi (self skillchain + huge attack bonus.) Multi step is good yeah but trusts tend to mess it up.
 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2018-02-17 22:23:12  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Chance of death is only concerned with highest possible damage taken as compared to available health. A RUN in full offensive gear is obscenely vulnerable to physical when battuta is down. Unresisted magic will mess them up pretty badly too, albeit unlikely(did they add a guaranteed partial resist at some level of m.eva?).

What content are you doing where you can't take advantage of the survivability RUN has available to it? Can you guys in this thread stop creating situations that don't exist.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-02-17 22:42:50  
Siren.Kyte said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »

The NIN was under-utilized. Blade: Ten to Blade: Metsu would have been a shift upwards

not sure how that (in isolation) would have helped

Blade: Ten to Blade: Metsu would still make Fragmentation, and Blade: Ten is a superior weapon skill, to my understanding. I admit, I am partial to weapon skills that result in Tarutaru flips.

Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
...PLD or RUN using full dps gear/JA has less survivability...The PLD doesn't even get a shield.

The PLD or RUN could swap into more defensive sets, if appropriate. When can the MNK swap into a more offensive set?
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-17 23:16:25  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
I am not saying MNK compares to RUN in any way

Yes you are...

Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Don't know about the accuracy of the video or gear used, but a PLD or RUN using full dps gear/JA has less survivability than a NIN casting utsusemi or a MNK. They might take less average damage, but they have greater death risk. The PLD doesn't even get a shield.

Risk of death for the RUN is far far less then the MNK. MNK is more vulnerable to physical damage then RUN, read all the passive JT's RUN has regarding this, then realize RUN has a support of MP and several self-cast buffs that it prebuffs with.

You realize RUN gets Max HP boost JT right ....

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Max_HP_Boost

So now down to Mantra at a 3 min duration with a 10 min recast.

You sound like one of those idiots that thinks "RUN is vulnerable to physical damage". RUN's are ridiculously hard to kill, need a full dispel to make one vulnerable, otherwise they just laugh at everything.

Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Unresisted magic will mess them up pretty badly too, albeit unlikely(did they add a guaranteed partial resist at some level of m.eva?).


Unresisisted magic hits RUN's less then any other job due to native MDB, much less if we remember to keep Valliance / Valation up or know to use OFA before something bad. Due to the insane MEVD RUN gets it also resists magic and status ailments more then any other job. Thus anything that would apply to RUN would apply more so to every other job in the game.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-02-17 23:58:30  
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Siren.Kyte said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »

The NIN was under-utilized. Blade: Ten to Blade: Metsu would have been a shift upwards

not sure how that (in isolation) would have helped

Blade: Ten to Blade: Metsu would still make Fragmentation, and Blade: Ten is a superior weapon skill, to my understanding. I admit, I am partial to weapon skills that result in Tarutaru flips.

That's only true if you have a lot of overflow or are using Heishi. Once you take into account the inferior SC, it isn't worth the consideration.

For Kikoku, the only things that would have a chance at being better than Metsu spam would be 3 or 4 steps, the latter of which is a bit iffy without SAM roll.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-02-18 00:23:37  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Typical six man pt

Tank
DD
COR
GEO
WHM
BRD

This is -not- a damn "typical" 6 man party. *** ridiculous.

This is a pathetic dd thinks he's too damn good to play with other people party.

It's an -ideal- 6 man. Not Average. Not typical. not standard. not whatever buzzword you want to use.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-02-18 00:25:50  
idk I usually use that setup lol
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By Quizzy 2018-02-18 01:54:25  
That trollish WAR, always trollin'!
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-02-18 13:34:19  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Typical six man pt

If your assumpton is a one DD six man pt, sure, MNK might not be your choice over a buffed to the moon WAR or something for that one DD slot.

The issue with this thinking is that unless you ONLY play with 6 people, there is really no good reason to limit yourself to a six man party for Dyna farming, Omen runs, or lower tier Escha content - which is what I was talking about, and which makes up a significant chunk of what people currently do in FFXI. MNK isn't that big of a liability. Say you have 9 people, 3 of whom are DDs, and you're fighting... idk, Gin. Is swapping one BLU DRG DRK DNC etc out for a MNK going to do anything significant for your Omen clear time? Hell no.

It's ridiculous that people who think they're such great players are terrified they will suddenly be taking 10min more by taking a MNK. It's totally false. Omen is still 90% floor climb and trash mobs where MNK is functionally identical to any other melee. Dyna is farming fairly weak stuff. Escha NMs aside from the really hard ones are more time for popping and buffing than the few extra seconds in battle you might lose using a MNK instead of [pick your middle of the pack DD], and the extra HP from adding a player is more than made up for with the extra DPS from even a "bad DD" like MNK.

Also worth noting the extremely limited flexibility for Saevel's optimal 6 man setup excludes over half the jobs in the game, not just MNK. COR BRD GEO WHM slots are fixed, and very limited tank flexibity with RUN or PLD (we already know Saevel thinks that even when someone successfully tanks a mob with PUP, they must be utter garbage because no way could a "robot" possibly hold hate off any real DD in any circumstance ever). Really only leaves WAR DRK and maybe SAM as viable choices for that one DD slot. 9/22 jobs having a possible role, so yeah, MNK isn't alone in being excluded from that setup.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-02-18 13:51:55  
Well, there isn't necessarily only 1 DD in said party setup (the COR should be DDing too and the tank may be as well- and the tank slot can sometimes be taken by sturdy DD....such as a MNK).

Don't think anyone said anything about limiting yourself to a 6-man party for content that can allow more, so I don't know what you're going on about there.
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By Leviathan.Eloc 2018-02-18 14:15:13  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Typical six man pt

If your assumpton is a one DD six man pt, sure, MNK might not be your choice over a buffed to the moon WAR or something for that one DD slot.

The issue with this thinking is that unless you ONLY play with 6 people, there is really no good reason to limit yourself to a six man party for Dyna farming, Omen runs, or lower tier Escha content - which is what I was talking about, and which makes up a significant chunk of what people currently do in FFXI. MNK isn't that big of a liability. Say you have 9 people, 3 of whom are DDs, and you're fighting... idk, Gin. Is swapping one BLU DRG DRK DNC etc out for a MNK going to do anything significant for your Omen clear time? Hell no.

It's ridiculous that people who think they're such great players are terrified they will suddenly be taking 10min more by taking a MNK. It's totally false. Omen is still 90% floor climb and trash mobs where MNK is functionally identical to any other melee. Dyna is farming fairly weak stuff. Escha NMs aside from the really hard ones are more time for popping and buffing than the few extra seconds in battle you might lose using a MNK instead of [pick your middle of the pack DD], and the extra HP from adding a player is more than made up for with the extra DPS from even a "bad DD" like MNK.

Also worth noting the extremely limited flexibility for Saevel's optimal 6 man setup excludes over half the jobs in the game, not just MNK. COR BRD GEO WHM slots are fixed, and very limited tank flexibity with RUN or PLD (we already know Saevel thinks that even when someone successfully tanks a mob with PUP, they must be utter garbage because no way could a "robot" possibly hold hate off any real DD in any circumstance ever). Really only leaves WAR DRK and maybe SAM as viable choices for that one DD slot. 9/22 jobs having a possible role, so yeah, MNK isn't alone in being excluded from that setup.

So MNK is ok to bring, as long as you don't have to rely on them for damage. Good to know.
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By Afania 2018-02-18 14:17:40  
Siren.Kyte said: »
Well, there isn't necessarily only 1 DD in said party setup (the COR should be DDing too and the tank may be as well- and the tank slot can sometimes be taken by sturdy DD....such as a MNK).


That kinda locked DD2 pt slot to COR, lol. Unless you are capping attack somehow or setting up multi step SC, in that case replacing COR with another DD may be alright.

Tbh, in 6 man pt setup, if not setting up multi step SC and using WS as fast as possible strategy, from my experience DD RUN(with strong hybrid set), DD, DD COR, REMA BRD (Ideally DDing too), Idris, healer is pretty damn hard to beat in terms of efficiency.

I am not sure about using a MNK instead of RUN as tank would result same level of kill speed without mechanics favoring it.

That means DD 1 slot belongs to whoever parse the highest, unless the content favors certain jobs.

Personally, I have no problem with slight decrease in kill speed most of the time, unless I am pushing VD clear speed for the sake of doing it. I use suboptimal setup pretty often for social and personal preference reasons, and that includes MNK.

But I can see it's serious business for some people aiming for the fastest kill speed, and has access to jobs required to form a top end 6 man melee pt.
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