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iiPunch - Monk Guide
By Seralonde 2017-08-07 15:30:41
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »So japanese people are basically whining that Focus gives so much acc it's hard to compensate with gear swaps and that with the new duration you can't alternate it with Aggressor to have a perma acc bonus.
I wouldn't really call it whining. It is more like pointing out the obvious to someone that doesn't even know how the job is used (Players to SE).
And everything else that has been discussed here is also being noticed by players across the pond:
The reduction in duration not only hurts MNK in general, but also MNK's mythic weapon specifically. (I don't think anyone here mentioned this, but it has been noted that JA enhancing gear no longer does anything...)
That Boost doesn't yield a greater gain in DPS/TP than one gets from not using the ability at all, assuming multi-attacks.
The absense of a second weapon, and the stats one affords, makes this fighting job a low performance attacker.
That MNK won't get equal opportunity to participate until it has comparable firepower.
MNK's DPS is lower than NIN, THF and BLU due to pitiful WS DMG.
MNK needs something in the sub slot and an increase to its accuracy cap to 99%
So, players of all kinds that play MNK see the issues.
Hopefully, SE takes the time to understand the issues, also.
#RIP Glanzfaust 2006-2017
By pchan 2017-08-07 17:48:07
You can actually effect the delay with haste and ma and such so you aren't standing around quite as long It doesn't seem to work that way. Boost seems to overwrite anything before and anything after. I haven't seen any attacks go off after hitting boost. That 10-13 second delay seems to take priority over everything. you can't guard, you can't counter, and I might be wrong because I was so disgusted with new MNK that I effectively banished it, but you can't activate another JA such as counterstance or perfect counter.
Please stop spreading nonsense. it's not 10-13 s, it is 7-8 seconds with H2H and capped haste, it is under 5seconds with hundred fists.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 17:56:43
Please stop spreading nonsense. it's not 10-13 s, it is 7-8 seconds with H2H and capped haste, it is under 5seconds with hundred fists.
Oh, what a relief. Hear that everyone? Our reward for Mastering MNK is once every 45min, Boost delay is under 5s.
Even if 5s were the norm, it would not be worth using...
I've seen conflicting things, though. I think some include JA delay + Boost delay and others do not combine the two.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-08-07 18:34:18
#RIP Glanzfaust 2006-2017
Since when was Glanz worth using in 2017? You're having a eulogy for something that was already dead...
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »By and large, MNK's go-to gear is already high in STR. I'm not sure there would be a need to swap out whatever anyone is wearing whether it is Adhemar, Kendatsuba or Anchorite +3. Even most TP rings have STR on them, the exception being Epona's. Moonbow belt is perfect. Maybe change the earrings and swap into a different JSE cape? And a different neck?
Fair enough for the purposes of talking in generalities, taking a closer look you're probably correct that there's probably not going to be a gigantic world of difference with a STR-optimized set and typical TP gear. Though as someone who doesn't have a Regal Ring at this point, one slot that immediately came to my mind was swapping Epona -> Ifrit+1.
Still, this is FFXI and we like figuring out the ideal sets, and surely most of us could optimize at least a little bit - right? As you mentioned, there are places where you probably aren't using STR in your TP set: neck, ears, maybe back... Maybe use a higher STR option in visible armor slot, etc. You don't see THFs saying "eh, I have a lot of DEX in my normal TP set anyway, I won't bother putting together a SA set". Or a MNK saying "my STR in TP set is fine, not gonna change gear to use V.Smite". That's ridiculous, and we kinda have to look at this new Boost like a WS of its own in many ways.
So does anyone happen to have already put together a max STR/boost set to see what an "ideal" set for non-WS Boosted hit would contain? Could ignore multiattack and Acc since it's a guaranteed single hit. I'm assuming crit damage/rate is probably helpful too? But if anyone can establish that it's not relevant to Boosted strikes, please share (I'm not sure myself all of the intricacies of how new Boost works yet).
You'd have to swap back to normal TP gear right afterwards to not lose out in normal TP phase, so I'll leave it to the LUA warriors to figure out how to automate that . Not so much an issue for me personally, as I don't use GS (personal preference) and would just hit a TP gear macro as soon as I saw the Boost hit go off - I know that's not perfect to a fraction of a second, but should be good enough for my purposes.
If we're really trying to form a comparison to figure out whether Boost is even worth using or not, this is something that really needs testing including actually gearing to maximize Boost's potential. I feel a lot of assumptions and bias coming through saying the delay instantly makes it not even worth using. Show me legitimate numbers to back that up.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 19:05:27
I would guess... Accuracy is completely unnecessary. If Attack is needed:
H2H Weapon of Choice, but Ver would be top dog.
Floestone
Adhemar bonnet +1--Path B or Rao kabuto +1--Path B
Adhemar jacket +1--Path B
Adhemar wristbands +1--Path B
Rao haidaite +1--Path B
Ryou sune-ate +1--Path D
Caro necklace
Moonbow belt +1
JSE Cape--30 STR and STP or Crit Rate
Sherida earring
Odnowa earring +1
Niqmaddu ring
Regal ring
For the sake of comparison, since they should be treated similarly, I'll post my Victory Smite set below in just a moment:
ItemSet 352714
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-08-07 19:13:12
If you swap in as much Martial Arts gear as possible before hitting Boost, it'll take less time for you to attack with it.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 19:18:47
If you swap in as much Martial Arts gear as possible before hitting Boost, it'll take less time for you to attack with it.
Incoming rush on Rao armor set +1.
By clearlyamule 2017-08-07 19:25:59
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »If you swap in as much Martial Arts gear as possible before hitting Boost, it'll take less time for you to attack with it.
Incoming rush on Rao armor set +1. Doubtful. Assuming you have at least 2 each piece is effectively only 4 MA while mnk can get 13 on head, 6 on body and 5 on hands.
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-08-07 19:32:22
Edit: Nevermind, doesn't work.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 19:49:22
Edit: Nevermind, doesn't work.
What didn't work?
What is the lowest delay you've seen?
Also, are you able to test a max STR Boost set? If not, I could later. I can't make fancy videos or anything, but I could certainly share some numbers.
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-08-07 19:52:53
Was wondering if unequipping your weapon before you use Boost (only to reequip it while waiting) would let you significantly lower your delay, but changing weapons cancels Boost.
The theoretical lowest delay should be with Shaolin Belt, Hizamaru Somen +2, Bhikku Cyclas +1, Count's Cuffs, Mache Earring +1 x2, and Rao +1 legs and feet, which would give you 206 base delay.
With capped haste, that would put Boost delay at 3.43 seconds (unarmed), 5.37 seconds (Spharai), and 5.73 seconds (Godhands).
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 19:53:54
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »If you swap in as much Martial Arts gear as possible before hitting Boost, it'll take less time for you to attack with it.
Incoming rush on Rao armor set +1. Doubtful. Assuming you have at least 2 each piece is effectively only 4 MA while mnk can get 13 on head, 6 on body and 5 on hands.
Aha, thanks for itemizing the pieces, so an ideal Boost activation set would look like this:
ItemSet 352715
*******Read further before buying these items for this purpose, it is very likely not worth the gil, inventory or even using Boost at all!!!!*******
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 19:58:07
The theoretical lowest delay should be with Shaolin Belt, Hizamaru Somen +2, Bhikku Cyclas +1, Count's Cuffs, Mache Earring +1 x2, and Rao +1 legs and feet, which would give you 206 base delay.
With capped haste, that would put Boost delay at 3.43 seconds (unarmed), 5.37 seconds (Spharai), and 5.73 seconds (Godhands).
Still over 5 seconds... Not including JA delay. Super big thank you for all the testing you have done.
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-08-07 20:00:51
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »The theoretical lowest delay should be with Shaolin Belt, Hizamaru Somen +2, Bhikku Cyclas +1, Count's Cuffs, Mache Earring +1 x2, and Rao +1 legs and feet, which would give you 206 base delay.
With capped haste, that would put Boost delay at 3.43 seconds (unarmed), 5.37 seconds (Spharai), and 5.73 seconds (Godhands).
Still over 5 seconds... Not including JA delay. Super big thank you for all the testing you have done. JA delay doesn't apply to Boost, as it gets merged with the Boost delay.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-07 21:15:48
Okay. So, that was terrible. Forgetting to engage prior to using Boost for this test was quite frustrating.
BTW, Odin.Geriond already posted how Boost works, so, thanks to him, the formula is known.
Just spent a few hours testing Boost:
Monk Main:
Your current attack delay (counting haste) is tripled, with a minimum of your weapon's unmodified delay, and reset. When your delay is up, you make one attack, which has 100% accuracy and cannot multi-attack.
Boost multiplies the damage of your next physical hit by 820/256+STR/400, and multiplies TP gain (after all modifiers) by 400%.
But since you were curious about how a STR-based set actually plays out...
I ran around Buburimu Peninsula fisting anything I could catch. My results:
My TP Set
Godhands
Ginsen
Adhemar bonnet +1--Path B
Adhemar jacket +1--Path B
Adhemar wristbands +1--Path B
Samnuha tights--Perfect
Herculean Boots--Accuracy 24, TA 4%, DEX 3, Attack 11
Anu torque
Moonbow belt +1
Segomo's Mantle--30 DEX, Acc/Attk 20 and DA 10%
Sherida earring
Telos earring
Niqmaddu ring
Epona's Ring
Average DMG of a single punch, non-critical: 1027
Average DMG of a single punch, critical: 1500
TP return of a single punch: 95
STR-based Boost Set--Total STR of 380
Godhands
Amar cluster
Adhemar bonnet +1--Path B
Adhemar jacket +1--Path B
Adhemar wristbands +1--Path B
Rao haidaite +1--Path B
Ryou sune-ate +1--Path D
Caro necklace
Moonbow belt +1
JSE Cape--30 STR, Acc/Attk 20 and Crit Rate 10%
Sherida earring
Odnowa earring +1
Niqmaddu ring
Regal ring
Average DMG of a non-critical Boost: 8217
Average DMG of a critical Boost: 11149
TP return from Boost: 686
To get the TP return from a STR-geared Boost, I would need 7.22 melee hits.
To get the DMG from a STR-geared non-critical Boost, I would need 8 melee hits.
To get the DMG from a STR-geared critical Boost, I would need 7.43 melee criticals.
It's about 8x everything, even though the sets aren't the same.
I used Godhands, so assuming a total delay of 5.73 seconds from Boost, in a capped Haste/Accuracy/Attack situation, I think it is very safe to say I'd get greater than 8 melee swings from my TP set over that period of time.
I'm pretty sure that by the time Boost gives a greater return than simply letting the fists fly, the real question should be why is a MNK here/are there not better buffs?
 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-08-08 07:38:41
Its all kind of a fallacious comparison at present though isn't it?
Nobody used boost on a melee swing pre-changes because it did next to nothing but add ja-delay.
Its main use was always as a precursor to using a WS, and right now that doesn't do a thing in that situation because it appears to be broken!
Hence, until boost starts showing some sort of effect on wsdmg, I really don't see the point.
As to the time-splits on focus/dodge, I can see the merits in the argument that losing the ability to snugly interleave with Aggressor/Defender is a fail, even if objectively the abilities are functionally better than they were.
By fillerbunny9 2017-08-08 07:57:39
Incoming maintenance for login campaign and curio moogles missing Dimenaional Rings. Not a peep about Boost, so probably broken as intended. GG, SE.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-08 08:38:37
Its all kind of a fallacious comparison at present though isn't it?
It is if you assume it is broken. Which, hopefully it is. But it isn't like they made very many changes with the most recent update, so a mistake like this is a pretty big, pretty black eye.
That said, *if* your Boost results in a critical hit, it is a nice way to roll 8 critical hits into one, albeit at a likely loss of TP.
And *if* your Boost results in a Ver aftermath or Spharai relic proc, you are even a bigger winner---Assuming the TP gain of just meleeing wouldn't have resulted in a WS. But it probably sets you back a WS in that time frame, so I think, no matter how good one's gear, Boost, as it is, is a big loser in terms of DPS.
I really feel like the update was just an excuse to invent a new type of delay/lock-out. Why is SE investing our money and their time in negative things?
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-08-08 08:54:59
*brainfart*
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-08-08 09:02:08
Its all kind of a fallacious comparison at present though isn't it?
Nobody used boost on a melee swing pre-changes because it did next to nothing but add ja-delay.
Its main use was always as a precursor to using a WS, and right now that doesn't do a thing in that situation because it appears to be broken!
Hence, until boost starts showing some sort of effect on wsdmg, I really don't see the point.
As to the time-splits on focus/dodge, I can see the merits in the argument that losing the ability to snugly interleave with Aggressor/Defender is a fail, even if objectively the abilities are functionally better than they were. As sad as it sounds, you do have a point.
In the large majority of situations Boost wasn't worth to be used (except for pre-engage situations I guess) even with AF+3 gloves.
The attack boost it gave to the next melee hit or to the first hit of the next WS just wasn't worth enough to justify the attack delay most of the time.
We could say that aside from niche situations, Boost wasn't getting used at all. From this perspective the fact that nobody is using Boost now because it's broken, didn't really change much.
The result is still the same, people aren't using Boost xD
Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-08-08 09:17:35
The bottom-line is there needs to be a tangible benefit to pre-boosting a WS, because as of now all we get is the negative, and just to add insult to injury gear boosting equipment again is completely ineffectual.
Its as cut-and-dried a case of something being broken as I can remember, I cannot think of any way they can possibly spin it to being "working as intended".
Logically, if the increment to WS dmg is less than a single melee hit under boost it CANNOT be seen as worthwhile, because the delay downside is unaffected. I consider that to be the bar for minimal usability.
Sidenote: I suspect the problem may be a result of the way that H2H ws are so strangely balanced at present to the detriment of multi-hit ones. For a job that is supposedly defined by its white damage, why is it that our most potent ws are things like Howling First?
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2017-08-08 09:26:00
I can see how it could work as they have it, in theory.
If you boost > ws you get a delay anyway. The boosted melee hit is to make up for (that) delay, but shouldn't add additional delay.
or... boost simply works on the ws, and still adds no additional delay.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-08 09:29:59
Assuming Boost is supposed to do to the first hit of Victory Smite what it does to melee hits currently, it would likely result in averages of 71k.
This is all conjecture, of course, but before we hinge a positive future for MNK on Boost working on WS, would that make it competitive?
Average WS DMG for MNK: 15k (I admit this is low, since this was my average prior to the H2H bumps with this update.)
One WS every 60s, with a tail end delay of 6ish seconds: 71k
Aiming low, and saying other jobs average 20k per WS.
Assuming one WS every 6s, this will vary a lot, of course...
MNK: 15k + 15k + 15k + 15k + 15k + 15k + 15k + 15k + 71k = 191k
Other: 20k x 10 = 200k
That's probably not bad, compared to NIN. Thf has Bully + SA and TA so it'll own those numbers. And BLU exists.
SAM, DRG and WAR would all be making multi-step skill chains, with which MNK could not compete. Or WAR would use Resolution, which would also win. DRK has some neat toys to expend either HP or MP for DMG. Just considering Consume Mana, which is also on a 60s timer... I don't think MNK would be close to the jobs that share a 95% accuracy cap.
But it would be close to NIN, with which it shares a kind of kinship... Except NIN gets an off-hand and a cap of 99% accuracy. And SAM gets a grip. And both have stances that aren't short duration.
I don't know. We really just have to wait and see.
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By pchan 2017-08-08 09:32:01
why is it that our most potent ws are things like Howling First?
What ? HF is ***. Just b/c a ws has a hight ftp doesn't mean it's good. Put 80% str mod on asuran and it becomes awesome even though it has 1 "ftp". 8 hit WS is like 8 "ftp".
By the way, I just tested Apex Bats in Ra'kaznar, level 136. They have 281 vit and you need a little less than 400 str to cap fSTR, depending on the weapon used. So I updated my simulation which now accounts for fstr. Obviously this favors verethragna. Also implemented footwork.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7wbcilaHsTeTFVua1c3Z2NVQlE
Code
victorysmite
godhands2 5617.0697314941945 (ws : 23213.38972960783 )
spharai2 5674.430111750465 (ws : 22553.91083938451 )
verethragna2 6185.466759647255 (ws : 23418.813898722034 )
I still don't know their AGI.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-08 09:34:09
I can see how it could work as they have it, in theory.
If you boost > ws you get a delay anyway. The boosted melee hit is to make up for (that) delay, but shouldn't add additional delay.
or... boost simply works on the ws, and still adds no additional delay.
Oh, I hadn't thought of this relationship. What if SE intended it to be a way to get a big hit after a weapon skill + enough TP to self-skill chain?
Like, get 1000 TP... Boost... WS (no extra DMG)... Boosted melee hit lands, 686 TP returned... Resume one normal melee round to complete 1000 TP... WS.
But I don't think it works this way now? I think WSing uses up the Boost effect, correct, but doesn't give addtional WS DMG?
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-08-08 09:53:33
If Boost does end up getting fixed to work on WSs, and it has similar potency as on physical attacks, it'll be more worthwhile on things that can take it when you use it to close a skillchain, ala old Rudra stacking.
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2017-08-08 09:54:30
What's your skillchains of choice?
2 step:
VS > VS?
VS > Shijin?
What's your 3 Step of Choice?
VS> Shijin > VS?
Shijin > VS > VS?
4 Step? 5? Cherry, do you have anything that gets you to Radiance you like? What are you all using?
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-08 10:22:08
I'll be honest, I haven't messed with multi-stepping MNK very much. I generally came up short of three WS... But I did 99.9% of my CPing on MNK solo with trusts. Anyway, I'd three step with Shantotto II to make Radiance in Omen or on Ascended NMs. :3
Things that I think should work:
Asuran Fists > Raging Fists > Victory Smite > Victory Smite
Asuran Fists > Howling Fist > Victory Smite > Victory Smite
Asuran Fists > Tornado Kick > Victory Smite > Victory Smite
Asuran Fists > Dragon Kick > Shijin Spiral > Victory Smite
Asuran Fists > Victory Smite > Shijin Spiral > Victory Smite
Shijin Spiral > Victory Smite > Victory Smite
The last three could make Radiance, I believe. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Saevel would know much better than I.
For lulz:
Shijin Spiral > Howling Fist > Tornado Kick > One Inch Punch > Victory Smite > Shijin Spiral > Victory Smite
In terms of what I prefer, anything that uses Victory Smite over any other option. The other weapon skills just don't do as well. This might be because I have a set optimized for Victory Smite and not for the other weapon skills. But I'm pretty sure testing has shown they just aren't as good.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-08-08 10:34:42
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »and a cap of 99% accuracy. Offhand cap is still 95%!
...but I get your point.
I think I'm not up-to-date with NIN though. Granted the Katana WSs are pretty meh, Shun isn't ***and Ten with proper buffs and Heishi Shorinken is not bad at all!
I mean it's not as good as many other WSs but then again it's nowhere close to H2H WSs either.
And when NIN can make use of Innin that's like ~20% perma Crit that you can full time, and lots of accuracy as well, plus you get Daken and blahblah.
I mean, despite the fact that NIN clearly lacks good DD cooldowns, it doesn't seem in such a bad position to be put that close to MNK! I think people are underestimating NIN's DPS potential.
why is it that our most potent ws are things like Howling First? It's not? Granted that Howling Fist and Raging Fists are MNK's best TP scaling WSs, HF only shines when you're in extremely underbuffed situations.
In those situations (especially with Godhands and/or if you end up with an excess of TP) yes, Howling Fist is likely our best WS.
In all other situations it's not.
When you're properly buffed Vsmite is the WS to spam at 1000TP. Raging Fists can be nice when superbuffed and close to 3K TP (how close depends to your TP bonus stuff)
If Boost does end up getting fixed to work on WSs, and it has similar potency as on physical attacks, it'll be more worthwhile on things that can take it when you use it to close a skillchain, ala old Rudra stacking. Yes, in that scenario Boost would be cool despite the delay, but it would still boost one WS every minute.
What about all the other WS you're gonna shoot in that minute of cooldown, plus the forced delay which will steal ~6 seconds of your time that you could've spent swinging your fists and multiattacking?
(speaking of which, wonder if Boost will prevent Multiattack to proc on WSs)
Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-08-08 11:04:55
It is probably not worth theorycrafting too hard when it is obviously broken, but here is how Fwahm reported it works:
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108197-Random-Facts-Thread-Abilities?p=6937544&viewfull=1#post6937544
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