IiPunch - Monk Guide

the *** is with "testing". just go do it if you're going to whine about everything anyways.

A good CP party can increase their net damage significantly by including a BLM and sacrificing fury for malaise. A MNK using kendatsuba over a mixed set loses essentially nothing from this. Thus, since you're fixated on the single situation(CP party), surely we should look at the best case scenario for a CP party..?

As far as making aeonic NMs as trivial as CP mobs, you would need no less than 3 idrises and a REA brd to cap accuracy on an aeonic mob. The limit of 12 rolls/songs is also still a concern. If you are using 4 carols, 4 rolls, honor march and blade madrigal as givens, that only leaves 2 buffs open. This leaves you choosing between capping pdif after bolster wears and getting a madrigal that the other DD can avoid for a negligible dps loss. This would increases your effective time from 3.5min to 6-8 depending on your buffers. If you're wasting a COR roll on hunters, or a GEO buff on precision that wouldn't otherwise be needed, you're even worse off.

A potential case can be made for your set as an optimal condition set, but once you lose any buff you're going to be better off in kendatsuba. The bottom line is that you're fixating on a single result because it's the result you want. It's not realistic, and despite your best attempts to try to defend it, the times when it can be made to win provide a very slight margin in it's favor.
The times when it loses, it is significantly behind, before even considering all the defensive boosts. If you only make one of the sets, kendatsuba is the correct choice.

He's saying that the 2nd set has more attack buffs instead of unnecessary accuracy buffs due to meeting the acc requirements with gear. They either have another minuet instead of madrigal, or meat instead of sushi.

Just use it to support MNK damage. Cap Accuracy, Haste and let that BoG Idris GEO-Fraility and Light Shot Dia III ride and see where we land.

I've said this before:

I've not seen evidence until this simulation that 18% Crit. rate would out DPS 6% Crit. damage/ 14 STP on MNK.

Please stop hamstringing it and making all these excuses as to why it isn't viable. I've shown that it is.
Maybe you are correct, and, if so, we'd be all better for knowing so. But I'm not convinced because of all this gobbledygook you are putting between us and real results.

So your CP party is GEO BRD COR RDM MNK? You're taking more than 50 seconds per mob so that your COR can light shot every mob? You're going to find that many of jobs that have an extremely easy time capping CP and are likely already mastered..? Idris GEO in particular is mastered within days of getting idris for pretty much anyone, if not beforehand.


Being correct in conditions that not only are often unreasonable, but are completely irrelevant doesn't mean much for your case. Even if your set can be made to win, it's one specific and irrelevant situation. That's hardly compelling evidence for people to aim for that over the actual best set.

We are trying to build a test for two or three different gear sets, not trying to build an ideal CP party. In common between these two goals is only that Apex Crabs are involved. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

I don't think I can say what I've said any other way, no matter how many times I say it.

at the very least 3 with hose and gaiters. even in his proposed set hose are better with gaiters.

The best set is the set that performs best under realistic conditions. Assuming everything is capped vs every mob is not 'realistic conditions', even coming from someone with 2 pocket RMEA brds and 3 pocket idrises.

The only test you are trying to build is one that favors your set, so you can mentally justify striving for it and feel complacent in ignoring the possibility of acquiring HQ kendatsuba.

too much sober in here...too much.

Why everyone so obsessed with CP? that's not actual content, 99% of people going to assemble some sets, get their master and move on. As long as puller is good, any job can set an sc for someone to burst on.

I'm interest more in every day content, like ambuscade, merit bc farming, etc. I couldn't care less about CP parties.

It took so many pages to settle on a test, and the test was skewed unnecessarily.

Capping accuracy and haste are totally possible. It is the paramount goal before considering anything else.

Now, rather than fixing the test, much wringing of hands is being made to sell that Kendatsuba.

Sorry Comeatmebro and Austar, you've let us all down.

Why CP mobs? Well, for example, Apex Crabs range in level from 128 to 130. We know their stats, so it is easy to build tests around them.

Knowing their level allows you to make comparisons to other events, like Ambuscade, whose targets change monthly. It won't line up perfectly, as some targets will have terrible defense but high evasion, etc.
But it gives a frame to build from since we know the general ilvl of the battle when selecting it.

Unless individuals are doing everything they can to skew results and conversation from making that common frame.

Exactly, thf this month was an easy acc swap for my blu and i could keep going, i don't want to change buffs for one mob so my mnk can hit. Can mnk reach 1400acc today?

If you have to give up DPS in favor of accuracy, Kendatsuba is the way to go. Swap pieces in until you hit the mark in order of Body, Legs, Hands, Head and then Feet. But before you do that, change your earring and ammo first and see where you land.
If you have to give up a lot of DPS in favor of a lot of accuracy, pieces from the AF+3 set might serve you better.

But you have to give up a lot to get MNK where every other DPS is. As a matter of fact, you can't give up enough to get MNK to compare to most other DPS. If you are against a target that requires 1400 accuracy, I wouldn't advise bringing MNK unless there existed some special characteristic that required a MNK be present.

Special cases are where you have enough buffs that an accuracy-gutted set with lots of awesome perks still cap hit rate. The buffs for this exist, but, given MNK's current state, I would still strongly suggest using any other job for such a strong push.

The point is that you never have to give up a lot of DPS when using kendatsuba. Whether it's you pretending accuracy is irrelevant, you pretending magic evasion is irrelevant, or you accusing of us trying to sell kendatsuba.. the constant is that the difference is never hugely in favor of any other set while it's often hugely in favor of kendatsuba.

It's almost comical how devoted you are to your viewpoint. Some serious desperation, for real.

Goes both ways. I'm surprised you are so devoted to Kendatsuba to use buffs only designed to make it shine against any other set.

I am desperate to have "what is best" available for everyone to see in this guide. To me, that is the point.
Refusing to provide results of an honest DPS-focused test from a system the two of you are helping adjust speaks volumes.

The argument that the BLM needs love too is comical. I wonder how many people are sharing buffs across melee and mages for this month's Ambuscade.

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36705/iipunch-monk-guide/147/#3279236

Austar testing your exact set vs apex crabs with max potency minuetx2, madrigal, victory march, frailty.. kendatsuba with max potency minuetx3, victory march, frailty

either of those conditions will cap accuracy, attack, haste for any DD in typical gear that you would expect to be present at apex crabs while still leaving malaise free for your BLM (or, since you wanted light shotted dia3 thrown in, the RDM to burst on and the COR to enjoy on leaden)

you're the one being unreasonable and expecting buffs tailored to one specific set.. you cherry pick parts of posts that you think you can contradict or ignore the posts entirely, 3/4 of what i've said goes ignored and gets no response despite you trying to argue the contrary 2 posts prior to it

Because the stats for the monsters are they are high enough level to actually matter. This makes them good targets for DPS math and a starting point for optimizations.


It most certainly is content, the power growth from CP frequently exceeds what is gained from any other content. It's also very fun if you are willing to try different methods. I've done 13 different jobs to master including MNK, if you add my mules it's even more. They were done outside of campaigns and very rarely had any magic bursts, in fact the last ten jobs have been without a single burst taking place.

Apex monsters are a good place to try out different builds before moving them into other things.

We didn't agree to test party CP gain rate. We agreed to test set DPS. So we could nail down exactly how much more DPS my proposed set would net.
So MBing makes no sense. Test the top potential of the set with approriate buffs or go home.

I can go ahead and say your set is top DPS when you have capped attack, capped accuracy, no concern for defensive stats. I don't even need to run a simulation to say that.

That does not make it the best set to aim for. You are only looking at absolutes, which is why you are hopeless.

You say to ignore magic evasion, fine.

You say to ignore accuracy, fine.

If we listen and do those things, the result you want will probably appear. That doesn't make them reasonable assessments of actual gameplay.

If your hypothetical MNK has madrigal dispelled during one of your severely overbuffed omens, surely you still have a kendatsuba set to regain your accuracy, right? Or, in your perfect world, do dispels not even happen?

I completely advocate for multiple sets of accuracy, as needs arise. But I do not advocate for wearing an abundance of unnecessary stats at all times just in case.

Not all fights dispel.
And, in the case presented for the test, I showed that even with my set, I had more than necessary accuracy.

I'm glad we can agree. We don't wholy agree, and I accept that. But I think we got somewhere today. I hope others benefit from it also.

Why are simulations superior to a spreadsheet DPS/DmgAvg result?

I actually don't agree, at all, with your viewpoint that it's a worthwhile set. The damage differences are entirely too small for the sacrifices in accuracy and magic evasion to feel worthwhile to me.

Your repeated insistance that I'm trying to sell kendatsuba makes it pretty clear that your reason for your argument is an unwillingness to acquire HQ kendatsuba. Nobody is required to have everything best in slot, but clearly it bothers you that it's currently out of reach.




I explained this a few pages ago, but let me pull it up.


Basically, a simulation can account for real conditions by adding up damage over time. You can tweak target stats/quantity. You can add a disengaged time. Impetus is tracked using a random number generator pegged to the game's algorithms. Averages are largely removed from the equation, and instead you can look at what would actually happen if you did a fight or series of fights 1000 times in a certain setup.

Spreadsheets are just crude simulations themselves. They assume a battle against an enemy with infinite HP who doesn't fight back and buffs that never wear or otherwise are removed. Pchans code just runs against enemies with limited HP and runs the actual random values instead of using absolute averages.

The second method is more representative of actual combat though until its open-source I wouldn't trust it. Pchan is notorious for bending the situation to make his opinion appear the absolute truth. FFXI is so situational and there are so many assumptions to make that it's easy to redefine one self into being correct. Just observe the two debators to see that in action.

It's okay to agree.

We can differ in the philosophical approach to gearing. People make choices due to lots of concerns, whether they are inventory, over-valuing a certain stat over others, whatever. There are many variances and good reasons to support at least some of them.

But it is very important to have a common set of agreed upon facts. What I quoted from you is a fact you and I both agree upon. It doesn't mean I expect to see you change your behaviors to match it in every situation. But in the situation we've described, it is the best to wear.

I'm not sure why you feel I'm poor. I'll admit to being frugal. It isn't like my ideal set doesn't have HQ ken body in it... And all sorts of other HQ goodies.

I said before, and I'll say again, I don't like it when rich or poor make poor choices.

This is probably where the disagreement comes.

Their situation:
Magic damage is irrelevant.
Debuffs are irrelevant.
Dispel is irrelevant

They think we don't understand it. We do. Our argument. That covers so little of 119 content it's not worth aiming for Cherry's set unless you aren't SU3.

"***is situational" isn't some automatic argument winner. We'll likely never agree.

Well, from a commonly accepted "Best DPS" set, you can then make choices to fit your varying needs.

Is more Accuracy needed/Dispel possible? Swap in the following order a different earring/ammo/legs/hands/head/feet.

Is magic evasion truly important for this fight? Swap in different items in terms of minimal loss/maximum gain. This might put you in 5/5 ken. gear, but it isn't a foregone conclusion.

A starting point is of utmost importance.
The goal is to buff/debuff every mob down to the lowest difficulty possible. If you never see a time when your targets are crushed that low, then certainly never wear the proposed set in full. Gear to where your performance is maximized.

Come the update, maybe MNK will inherently be given more of all that it is lacking. The proposed set might apply to more of the content you experience, then. Or it might not. Things could radically change.
But we've got this starting point for today and to use as comparison for tomorrow. That is very valuable.

That is why I prefer to define baselines and then "get there". If the theoretical DPS difference is under 5% then it's functionally irrelevant. Slightly defensive sets will win in actual gameplay as normal ransdom ***becomes less common. This exact argument was had on both DRK and WAR forums over TPing in Argosy gear.

I'll wait til I can +2 all my ambu sets should be any month now..

that's why i fixed everything in it, good and bad

also doesn't take monster health into account yet. just 10k melee rounds from 0 tp start

The law of large numbers implies that they will eventually match when bugs are found and corrected, in both of them. Several years ago I did a C-simulation of all DD jobs and compared them to motenten's spreadsheets and it allowed for many bugs to be discovered ranging from incorrect job trait (small bug) values to pdif being uncapped on WS for 2handed-DD (critical bug).

As for cherrywhine assessing my simulation gives wrong accuracy, prove it. When building it I checked the numbers in game with /checkparam. If you find different values it's probably due to cp gifts being different or other wierd buffs you are using.