For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

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For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
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By eeternal 2019-05-15 12:48:31  
Anyone mind sharing bis AE set please? I've seen one on page 170 or around that, I think. Is it still bis?

Thanks
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-15 13:16:50  
The Aeolian Edge set Boshi posted on page 174 only dates back to last September. Nothing new has come out since then that would improve aeolian edge over what he posted. It's still current, provided of course you can get the proper herc augs.
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By eeternal 2019-05-15 17:42:04  
Thanks Melphina
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By DirectX 2019-05-19 08:25:04  
Just to clarify: Crit damage +6% adds the same amount of damage to Sneak Attack Rudra's as WSD+6% right?
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-05-19 08:33:42  
it depends on how much WSD versus +crit damage you have
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 04:11:39  
Why is it not just a straight % regardless?
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2019-05-20 04:52:50  
DirectX said: »
Why is it not just a straight % regardless?
It's because a lot of DMG mods or even duration gear (augged vs non augged) gets multiplied. Not added into the same term.

Say you have 30 WSD and 40 Crit DMG +.
30 * 40 = 1,200

+5 More WSD (35) / Still 40 Crit DMG +
35 * 40 = 1,400

Back to 30 WSD / +5 More Crit DMG + (45)
30 * 45 = 1,350

If they are both the same number to start with say 30/30 then they would be equal if you increased either by the same number.

The less you have of one stat the more it counts. I made this very simplistic, hope it helps.
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 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-20 07:58:30  
The simplified weaponskill damage formula is

Weapon Base Damage x Critical Hit Damage x Weaponskill Damage Bonus

Secondary attributes and tp bonuses factor into the base damage, and attack/defense is tacked on as well, but that's the gist of it. Since critical hit damage and weaponskill damage are both multipliers, and both are separate parts of the formula, it's not a static increase. They both multiply the other, so increasing whichever is smaller would have a larger net effect if you had the choice of equal amounts of wsd vs crit damage on the same slot. Chiaia already gave some examples above so I won't bother with more.

There's only one slot where you actually have a choice though, and that's the body. Meghanada Cuirie +2 versus Plunderer's Vest +3 is almost a wash. Meg +2 has 6% weaponskill damage, but relic has 5% crit, 1 more dex, 7 more str, and 26 more attack (with STR factored in) so those extra stats also play a part. In the end relic vest also adds 10% agility to trick attack and has a ton of enmity attatched to it, so it's probably most effecient to trick attack in the vest and sneak attack in the cuirie. And yes, the trick attack bonus does make the vest stronger than the cuirie with a Trick Attacked Rudra's. Other than that every other BiS piece has no equal. Artifact +3 hat, Meg +2 gloves, Relic +3 legs, Lustraio +1 feet (Path D) are outright better than any alternatives, and the accessories don't have any options with comparable choices.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 08:08:12  
Thanks. I thought they would both just multiply the damage of the WS individually and then be added on, not multiply one another.

I am working on optimising my unstacked Evis set. So far I am not finding Tauret to be better than Aeneas (anecdotally, not parsing). I do not own a Twashtar and unlikely ever will.
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-20 08:21:24  
Are you talking about overall damage output, or just evisceration numbers? There's no way an Aeneas has higher evisceration damage than a Tauret. Tauret gives you a flat 50% damage bonus to the entire weaponskill. It's impossible for anything else to match that.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 08:47:01  
I mean using Rudra's on Aenas and stacking with SA or TA when available, vs just spamming Evis and never stacking it. Should I stack evis too?
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-20 08:58:58  
Quote:
Should I stack evis too

No. I just misinterpreted what you meant when you said this

Quote:
I am working on optimising my unstacked Evis set. So far I am not finding Tauret to be better than Aeneas

It sounded like you were saying you thought Tauret's unstacked eviscerations were inferior to Aeneas's unstacked eviscerations. Which made no sense to me. That's all.


Sneak Attack and Trick Attack should always be stacked with Rudra's Storm. And your observation's are probably right too. Tauret is a fantastic dagger, but so are Aeneas and Twashter and when played to their strengths the two REMA options do come out ahead. You're doing things right already. Don't change that up.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-20 09:51:11  
DirectX said: »
Thanks. I thought they would both just multiply the damage of the WS individually and then be added on, not multiply one another.

It would be illogical, but also it wouldn't matter at all.
The whole idea is that both Critical hit damage and WSD has diminishing returns so if you assume that 1% of WSD is as good as 1% of Crit at start, then they both lose its value with more WSD and more CHD and if you have for example 40%WSD and 20%CHD, then 1% WSD is weaker, because it has more diminishing returns. So both of them being multiplicative with each other or working in the way you was thinking it was working doesn't matter.
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By DaneBlood 2019-05-20 10:23:06  
SimonSes said: »
DirectX said: »
Thanks. I thought they would both just multiply the damage of the WS individually and then be added on, not multiply one another.

It would be illogical, but also it wouldn't matter at all.
The whole idea is that both Critical hit damage and WSD has diminishing returns so if you assume that 1% of WSD is as good as 1% of Crit at start, then they both lose its value with more WSD and more CHD and if you have for example 40%WSD and 20%CHD, then 1% WSD is weaker, because it has more diminishing returns. So both of them being multiplicative with each other or working in the way you was thinking it was working doesn't matter.


i think you misunderstood DX proposal because it defiantly would matter. if WSD and Crtidmg are no longer multiplier of each other but individually added into dmg... let take a look


Base dmg is 100
His propose is that both critdamage and wsd works on the base and then added into the total
In that case it would not matter where you put that 6%.

0 wsd and 80% critdmg
base 100
WSD = 0
Critdmg 80%
total 180

6wsd and 80critdmg
base 100
WSD 6
critdamage 80
totale 186

0wsd and 86critdmg
base 100
WSD 0
Critdamage 86
total 186


DX's incorrect model, makes it so it does not matter at all if it WSD or or Crtidmg because they are not longer multipliers of each other
This is not about diminish return in itself
But the fact that a square has the biggest areas of a 4 sided polygon
aka you get the biggest end result when two factor are moving towards the same size.


in short: yes his incorrect model would indeed work as he thought.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 11:19:26  
Yes, that is how I was thinking about it.

If Aenas and Rudra's is generally going to serve me better than Tauret and Evis then I regret paying the 40M for Pulse Cells for it. However, I guess it would still serve as my best offhand on occasion for the accuracy.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-20 11:32:14  
DirectX said: »
Yes, that is how I was thinking about it.

If Aenas and Rudra's is generally going to serve me better than Tauret and Evis then I regret paying the 40M for Pulse Cells for it. However, I guess it would still serve as my best offhand on occasion for the accuracy.

Even if evisceration did 99999 and gave you full time hundred fists you should regret paying 40m for pulse cells lol.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-20 13:16:48  
@DaneBlood True! Brain fart on my part :)
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 13:33:56  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
DirectX said: »
Yes, that is how I was thinking about it.

If Aenas and Rudra's is generally going to serve me better than Tauret and Evis then I regret paying the 40M for Pulse Cells for it. However, I guess it would still serve as my best offhand on occasion for the accuracy.

Even if evisceration did 99999 and gave you full time hundred fists you should regret paying 40m for pulse cells lol.
Why? Farming 0.5-1% drop in Zi Tah would take longer.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-20 13:46:52  
Because you did something stupid and paid the idiot tax

Buying to skip the ***, is totally the right call. Overpaying is the regret.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 15:55:03  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Because you did something stupid and paid the idiot tax

Buying to skip the ***, is totally the right call. Overpaying is the regret.
How was it idiotic when it was all the rage about being the best on this very thread a week ago?

I have Polearm at Pulse weapon stage too but haven't fell for that hype.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-24 09:26:08  
It's not overpaying when the going rate for pulse cells is 7-8 mil per. Supply and demand fluctuates the final price slightly, but a full set of pulse cells probably won't dip below 35-40 mil for a while. Waiting for months to save few extra million on a piece you want now isn't very effecient. And it's still a lot easier on the pocketbook than funding an REMA.

And on that note, I finally got my Twashtar to Rank 15 a couple days ago. Personal achievement I know, but it feels so good to finally put all that MacGuffin farming behind me. I finally feel like I don't have any more meaningful upgrades left for my thief. It's both liberating and satisfying at the same time. Feels so very nice.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-24 12:31:51  
Even when multiple morons pay it, doesn't mean it isn't still over paying.

If a gallon of milk starts costing $1000(usd), regardless how many people pay it. it's still stupid.
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2019-05-24 15:48:02  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Even if evisceration did 99999 and gave you full time hundred fists you should regret paying 40m for pulse cells lol.

Poor ppl talk.

not if 40m gill is faster to do than farming the pulse weapon.

The only REAL unified currency we have is time.
if you can make 40mill faster than the time to farm the pulse weapons then that its the cheaper options in time

or to but it revese

IT takes X amount of time to get a pulse weapons and you couldyou make 60mill inthe same X amount of time

using X amount of time get an item
vs
using x amounth of time to get 60 million gil and paying 40 for the item,
last way has a 20million lead over your way


I don't know how long time it takes to farm the pulse weapon today, but 40mill is around a gainxp and comes with the benefits of more potty points and job points.


That the same reason i have a guy to do my lawn and bushes.
The time it takes me to do it is more expensive in lost income than getting a guy to do it for me.

basic economics really
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 Phoenix.Gaiarorshack
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2019-05-24 15:51:34  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Even when multiple morons pay it, doesn't mean it isn't still over paying.

If a gallon of milk starts costing $1000(usd), regardless how many people pay it. it's still stupid.

Supply and demand do not care of your personal opinions of an items worth.
And item is worth what it can be sold for.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-24 17:06:28  
Quote:
Buying to skip the ***, is totally the right call. Overpaying is the regret.

It's pretty hypocritical to say that it's right to buy the pulse cells, but it's wrong to pay the prices they're going for. The price of pulse cells is stable and won't be dropping in the foreseeable future. Does that mean it's also right to wait 6 months to a year to buy a piece of gear we want right now when we have the means to farm for it? If that was the case I probably wouldn't have half the equipment I do right now.

Quote:
The only REAL unified currency we have is time.
if you can make 40mill faster than the time to farm the pulse weapons then that its the cheaper options in time

Basically this. A million times this. Farming gil nowadays really isn't a big deal. And I'd much rather have equipment that makes my jobs stronger than a larger number on my inventory screen that just sits there most of the time.
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By DirectX 2019-05-24 17:54:29  
Quite frankly I'm surprised they aren't selling for more. I don't know who's farming the cells or why they find it to be a good source of income.

Using stones during hmp bonus would be a lot more Gil.

I also don't understand how you claim to have farmed 25000 merits in 48 hours Eiryl.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-05-24 18:31:49  
DirectX said: »
Quite frankly I'm surprised they aren't selling for more. I don't know who's farming the cells or why they find it to be a good source of income.

Using stones during hmp bonus would be a lot more Gil.

I also don't understand how you claim to have farmed 25000 merits in 48 hours Eiryl.

Bots. Bots everywhere.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-24 18:51:58  
I had absolutely zero potpourri on the day of the update (10th)

13 days later I have 146,000 (and I've done ambuscades, legions for access to pulses and RoEs occasionally slowing it down) and I totally forgot to re-up the buff for an entire day QQ

 Lakshmi.Avereith
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2019-05-24 19:07:10  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
I had absolutely zero potpourri on the day of the update (10th)

13 days later I have 146,000 (and I've done ambuscades, legions for access to pulses and RoEs occasionally slowing it down) and I totally forgot to re-up the buff for an entire day QQ

Im not questioning that that have that much, I'm just wondering how that's at all possible. What are you even killing, how many of you are there, etc etc.

It just doesn't seem like those kind of numbers are possible at all unless you're running an army of 6 bots at once or something all killing everything they see.
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