For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

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For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
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By eeternal 2019-05-15 12:48:31  
Anyone mind sharing bis AE set please? I've seen one on page 170 or around that, I think. Is it still bis?

Thanks
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-15 13:16:50  
The Aeolian Edge set Boshi posted on page 174 only dates back to last September. Nothing new has come out since then that would improve aeolian edge over what he posted. It's still current, provided of course you can get the proper herc augs.
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By eeternal 2019-05-15 17:42:04  
Thanks Melphina
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By DirectX 2019-05-19 08:25:04  
Just to clarify: Crit damage +6% adds the same amount of damage to Sneak Attack Rudra's as WSD+6% right?
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-05-19 08:33:42  
it depends on how much WSD versus +crit damage you have
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 04:11:39  
Why is it not just a straight % regardless?
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2019-05-20 04:52:50  
DirectX said: »
Why is it not just a straight % regardless?
It's because a lot of DMG mods or even duration gear (augged vs non augged) gets multiplied. Not added into the same term.

Say you have 30 WSD and 40 Crit DMG +.
30 * 40 = 1,200

+5 More WSD (35) / Still 40 Crit DMG +
35 * 40 = 1,400

Back to 30 WSD / +5 More Crit DMG + (45)
30 * 45 = 1,350

If they are both the same number to start with say 30/30 then they would be equal if you increased either by the same number.

The less you have of one stat the more it counts. I made this very simplistic, hope it helps.
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 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-20 07:58:30  
The simplified weaponskill damage formula is

Weapon Base Damage x Critical Hit Damage x Weaponskill Damage Bonus

Secondary attributes and tp bonuses factor into the base damage, and attack/defense is tacked on as well, but that's the gist of it. Since critical hit damage and weaponskill damage are both multipliers, and both are separate parts of the formula, it's not a static increase. They both multiply the other, so increasing whichever is smaller would have a larger net effect if you had the choice of equal amounts of wsd vs crit damage on the same slot. Chiaia already gave some examples above so I won't bother with more.

There's only one slot where you actually have a choice though, and that's the body. Meghanada Cuirie +2 versus Plunderer's Vest +3 is almost a wash. Meg +2 has 6% weaponskill damage, but relic has 5% crit, 1 more dex, 7 more str, and 26 more attack (with STR factored in) so those extra stats also play a part. In the end relic vest also adds 10% agility to trick attack and has a ton of enmity attatched to it, so it's probably most effecient to trick attack in the vest and sneak attack in the cuirie. And yes, the trick attack bonus does make the vest stronger than the cuirie with a Trick Attacked Rudra's. Other than that every other BiS piece has no equal. Artifact +3 hat, Meg +2 gloves, Relic +3 legs, Lustraio +1 feet (Path D) are outright better than any alternatives, and the accessories don't have any options with comparable choices.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 08:08:12  
Thanks. I thought they would both just multiply the damage of the WS individually and then be added on, not multiply one another.

I am working on optimising my unstacked Evis set. So far I am not finding Tauret to be better than Aeneas (anecdotally, not parsing). I do not own a Twashtar and unlikely ever will.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-20 08:21:24  
Are you talking about overall damage output, or just evisceration numbers? There's no way an Aeneas has higher evisceration damage than a Tauret. Tauret gives you a flat 50% damage bonus to the entire weaponskill. It's impossible for anything else to match that.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 08:47:01  
I mean using Rudra's on Aenas and stacking with SA or TA when available, vs just spamming Evis and never stacking it. Should I stack evis too?
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-05-20 08:58:58  
Quote:
Should I stack evis too

No. I just misinterpreted what you meant when you said this

Quote:
I am working on optimising my unstacked Evis set. So far I am not finding Tauret to be better than Aeneas

It sounded like you were saying you thought Tauret's unstacked eviscerations were inferior to Aeneas's unstacked eviscerations. Which made no sense to me. That's all.


Sneak Attack and Trick Attack should always be stacked with Rudra's Storm. And your observation's are probably right too. Tauret is a fantastic dagger, but so are Aeneas and Twashter and when played to their strengths the two REMA options do come out ahead. You're doing things right already. Don't change that up.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-20 09:51:11  
DirectX said: »
Thanks. I thought they would both just multiply the damage of the WS individually and then be added on, not multiply one another.

It would be illogical, but also it wouldn't matter at all.
The whole idea is that both Critical hit damage and WSD has diminishing returns so if you assume that 1% of WSD is as good as 1% of Crit at start, then they both lose its value with more WSD and more CHD and if you have for example 40%WSD and 20%CHD, then 1% WSD is weaker, because it has more diminishing returns. So both of them being multiplicative with each other or working in the way you was thinking it was working doesn't matter.
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By DaneBlood 2019-05-20 10:23:06  
SimonSes said: »
DirectX said: »
Thanks. I thought they would both just multiply the damage of the WS individually and then be added on, not multiply one another.

It would be illogical, but also it wouldn't matter at all.
The whole idea is that both Critical hit damage and WSD has diminishing returns so if you assume that 1% of WSD is as good as 1% of Crit at start, then they both lose its value with more WSD and more CHD and if you have for example 40%WSD and 20%CHD, then 1% WSD is weaker, because it has more diminishing returns. So both of them being multiplicative with each other or working in the way you was thinking it was working doesn't matter.


i think you misunderstood DX proposal because it defiantly would matter. if WSD and Crtidmg are no longer multiplier of each other but individually added into dmg... let take a look


Base dmg is 100
His propose is that both critdamage and wsd works on the base and then added into the total
In that case it would not matter where you put that 6%.

0 wsd and 80% critdmg
base 100
WSD = 0
Critdmg 80%
total 180

6wsd and 80critdmg
base 100
WSD 6
critdamage 80
totale 186

0wsd and 86critdmg
base 100
WSD 0
Critdamage 86
total 186


DX's incorrect model, makes it so it does not matter at all if it WSD or or Crtidmg because they are not longer multipliers of each other
This is not about diminish return in itself
But the fact that a square has the biggest areas of a 4 sided polygon
aka you get the biggest end result when two factor are moving towards the same size.


in short: yes his incorrect model would indeed work as he thought.
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 11:19:26  
Yes, that is how I was thinking about it.

If Aenas and Rudra's is generally going to serve me better than Tauret and Evis then I regret paying the 40M for Pulse Cells for it. However, I guess it would still serve as my best offhand on occasion for the accuracy.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-20 11:32:14  
DirectX said: »
Yes, that is how I was thinking about it.

If Aenas and Rudra's is generally going to serve me better than Tauret and Evis then I regret paying the 40M for Pulse Cells for it. However, I guess it would still serve as my best offhand on occasion for the accuracy.

Even if evisceration did 99999 and gave you full time hundred fists you should regret paying 40m for pulse cells lol.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-20 13:16:48  
@DaneBlood True! Brain fart on my part :)
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By DirectX 2019-05-20 13:33:56  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
DirectX said: »
Yes, that is how I was thinking about it.

If Aenas and Rudra's is generally going to serve me better than Tauret and Evis then I regret paying the 40M for Pulse Cells for it. However, I guess it would still serve as my best offhand on occasion for the accuracy.

Even if evisceration did 99999 and gave you full time hundred fists you should regret paying 40m for pulse cells lol.
Why? Farming 0.5-1% drop in Zi Tah would take longer.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-20 13:46:52  
Because you did something stupid and paid the idiot tax

Buying to skip the ***, is totally the right call. Overpaying is the regret.
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