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You Spoony Guide! - A Troubadour's Libretto
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 943
By Odin.Calipso 2014-05-06 15:14:16
I've been getting in the habit of casting v-march last too, just b/c it's pretty useful to have on as a mage (not talking just sch either, it's nice on whm as well).
Since songs can over-write at any duration, if N/T wears off before you can get ballads up, if you really wanna nitpick you could just overwrite each of the N/T songs with NQ songs(assuming you know exactly what songs are on the person) then you'd be able to ballad properly.
This isn't directed at any one in this thread, but seems like I get a lot of people asking me about song duration, so figured I'd repost this here while I'm at it: Song duration and you: Why do my ballads get *** up?
Even though SE fixed it so that we can now overwrite the same songs at any duration, if you cast a different song, lowest duration songs will be overwritten first. This can get tricky if you put up all your songs really quickly, and it's really easy to end up with only 1 ballad on the mage especially if you're a 3 song brd that strives to keep all 3 songs g-horned.
Duration gear for March, Minuet, and Madrigal (parenthsis time is for troubadour)
Dagger : 6 (12) seconds
Empyrean Bonus : 12 (24) seconds
Empyrean Neck : 12 (24) seconds
Empyrean Body: 12 (24) seconds
Marduk Legs : 12 (24) seconds
Brioso Feet : 12 (24) seconds
Gjallarhorn : 48 (96) seconds
Base duration : 120 (240) seconds
Total : 234 (468) seconds, or 3 minutes, 54 seconds (7 minutes, 48 seconds).
Duration gear for Ballads:
Dagger : 6 (12) seconds
Empyrean Bonus : 12 (24) seconds
Empyrean Neck : 12 (24) seconds
Empyrean Body: 12 (24) seconds
Marduk Legs : not applicable because the empyrean bonus uses the leg slot :<
Brioso Feet : 12 (24) seconds
Gjallarhorn : 48 (96) seconds
Base duration : 120 (240) seconds
Total: 222 (444) seconds, or 3 minutes 42 seconds (7 minutes, 24 seconds).
Just a note, this only really ever becomes a problem during N/T songs. The duration difference between nq songs along with how long it generally takes to get them up means that it's not usually a problem.
Assuming you're a 3 song brd and you N/T, you can very easily do March + March + Paeon + Minuet in ~5-6 seconds. This means (for the sake of this next point) your song durations would probably look something like:
March1: 7:36~
March2: 7:38~
Minuet: 7:40~
Now, assuming your whm gets hit with all of those songs, if you immediately ballad them, their timers are going to look like this:
Ballad: 7:24
March2:7:36~
Minuet:7:37~
So what's the problem? Ballad is suddenly the lowest duration song, meaning if you cast another one, it's going to overwrite the ballad, and not the march/minuets. If you were to hit them with March/March/Minuet then immediately Ballad3/Ballad2/Ballad1, they'd end up with Ballad1/March/Minuet, which is obviously not ideal.
So, how do you deal with this?
Ask that either the whm stays out of melee songs (which isn't always possible, ideal, or practical), or just simply wait till the first melee songs' duration is at 7:23 or lower before you start ballads (of course, you need to be able to time it to get off 2/3 ballads before N/T wears off, or you'll run into the same problem). The same goes for pretty much any other song that isn't March, Madrigal, or Minuet (since they're the pieces that get a +1 on your emp gear) - Prelude is probably one of the more commonly casted ones.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-05-06 15:16:40
Ragnarok.Sprinter said: »Old post by Kanican on his livejournal says "Singing Skill affects accuracy like other skills for other jobs, but Wind affects it only at 1/3rd the rate other skills in terms of resists." with ffxi hunter bible version 2 (jp) as the source.
I would believe that the skills are not simply added together when determining magic accuracy, but I'm not sure it's 1/3.
1/3 * Wind + Singing = 497 at level 99. BLM only gets 424 Elemental magic skill. I doubt that we're so far over BLM with our spells.
By Ophannus 2014-05-06 19:34:29
Could presume it's 1/4 or something then. After all BRD reforged armor has ~26-29 m.acc and +singing/wind skill. Maybe compare roughly to other A+ mage skill jobs and see how much m.acc they get and see what would be a proportionate amount? I know it's not very scientific, but just to get a ballpark estimate. I doubt they'd be giving BRD such high amounts of m.acc if our combined skill was that much higher than BLM as Byrth pointed out.
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-06 19:39:18
For what little it is worth, and bearing in mind that I haven't played in a while, I don't remember having meaningful accuracy problems with landing Elegy and Lullaby. Requiem was a different story, but this was back when Requiem basically did not land on anything worthwhile, which I understand has changed.
So the 1/3 figure might not be completely absurd. Since Bards are only limited to a few offensive songs, it wouldn't be unreasonable to tune them to hit a bit more consistently, especially considering the rather long recasts.
Cerberus.Leauce
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 69
By Cerberus.Leauce 2014-05-06 20:31:04
Someone in my LS said you can keep up the extra songs from Clarion Call even after the SP wears off by continuing to refresh the songs before they wear off, is that true?
its true.
By Ophannus 2014-05-06 20:36:03
Would be a let down if that were true, given that BRD is primarily a 'buff' specialist not a debuff specialist yet Elegy is more potent than RDM's meritted Slow II spell and RDM is the 'enfeebling specialist'. So for BRD to have an advantage landing sleeps/dispels/slows/dots over RDM, that's more than half of RDM's enfeebling arsenal(not counting Dia since that's 100%).
My BRD is still relatively new and I dont have all the m.acc pieces yet so I wonder how BRD fares with maxed out M.acc landing elegy on AAs in difficult or higher. I know that as RDM with a near perfect m.acc set,Klimaform and Storm eating a Pear Crepe, my hit rate for para/slow/grav on AAs in difficult is ~40-45 roughly. Most of my enfeebles still resist.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
サーバ: Ragnarok
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Posts: 4197
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-05-06 21:44:29
Someone in my LS said you can keep up the extra songs from Clarion Call even after the SP wears off by continuing to refresh the songs before they wear off, is that true?
its true. Conceptually, it's possible to enter an event say, delve and use clarion call on your first batch of songs and then keep 5 songs up the entire run, even to the last set of N/T SV songs on the boss.
Though this would take a near obsessive level of upkeep and very careful buffing to ensure every player always got each song refreshed exactly before they wear and of course a single dispel or death(at least for the one who died) would completely *** the entire thing up but hey, it's possible and if that 5th song is critical and there's no dispel mobs, it could be viable.
For someone like me who dual boxes their brd but does so quite manually, it's a pretty frightening expectation to never let a song drop during the run, particularly during longer events. But I think I'd probably still save CC for when I SV just to make sure it's up since the boss is probably the most critical part of the run to have that 4th song anyway. And if there's any party swapping... then *** that, I quit.
Carbuncle.Sisko
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 192
By Carbuncle.Sisko 2014-05-07 04:45:52
Keeping CC song up is doable in a short, controlable fight like Battlefields / Forced pop nm etc..
As for delve, it would be way too dangerous to lose your third/fourth/fifth song before getting to the boss. You can be as careful as you want, you can't prevent someone to be oneshoted or dispelled. And if a "single" dd dies, you would have to sing around having 2-3 players with 4 songs and another one with 3. So welcome headache.
And I agree completely with you, if there's any party swapping it's just way too difficult to maintain.
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Cerberus.Spirachub
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 516
By Cerberus.Spirachub 2014-05-07 04:57:30
Would be a let down if that were true, given that BRD is primarily a 'buff' specialist not a debuff specialist yet Elegy is more potent than RDM's meritted Slow II spell and RDM is the 'enfeebling specialist'. So for BRD to have an advantage landing sleeps/dispels/slows/dots over RDM, that's more than half of RDM's enfeebling arsenal(not counting Dia since that's 100%).
My BRD is still relatively new and I dont have all the m.acc pieces yet so I wonder how BRD fares with maxed out M.acc landing elegy on AAs in difficult or higher. I know that as RDM with a near perfect m.acc set,Klimaform and Storm eating a Pear Crepe, my hit rate for para/slow/grav on AAs in difficult is ~40-45 roughly. Most of my enfeebles still resist.
on AA D it's really easy to land debuffs (provided you're gearing right). Everything lands without a resist for me (Elegy, Nocturne, Finale and even requiem) I haven't done a VD for a while so I'm unsure about it, but from memory it still lands after a couple of tries (unless troubadour is on). But that was before I had a massive upgrade on macc so maybe it's a lot better now...
By Pantafernando 2014-05-07 05:49:31
I have a not so bad macc set (318macc (considering magic accuracy skill=1 macc), 102 chr, 26 wind and 30 sing) still i have a hard time to dispel tojil spikes with finale. I was careless anyway, hadnt the pans horn, but how much does the finale +3 affect finale macc? Or, is there a minimum macc total to land finale reliable (without a geo)?
Thanks in advance.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-05-07 06:15:32
The amount of MAcc added by Finale +3 is unknown. The fact that it even adds MAcc is inferred from the lack of any other obvious benefit.
tl:dr; no one knows. I personally don't have any trouble dispelling Tojil though.
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Carbuncle.Killkenny
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 190
By Carbuncle.Killkenny 2014-05-07 06:22:41
With 99Ghorn and a decent macc setup (haven't bothered upgrading any 119 relic gear but otherwise BiS) I have a 90%~ land rate for finale on VD AAs, elegy/nocturne seem to have slightly lower land rates but I normally cast them with N/T up in single fights, DMII I never bother because stuff dies in a couple of mins regardless.
Tojil I can finale and nocturne with almost 100% success but Elegy seems to be hit/miss without troub (I always pull on brd with Troub Elegy so its never relevant anyway).
ItemSet 323262
Obvious upgrades I can make, Lehbrailg with decent augments would surpass Mythic, Artsieq boots R15 and relevant relic 119 pieces.
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Cerberus.Spirachub
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 516
By Cerberus.Spirachub 2014-05-07 06:30:47
That's interesting, I can never land nocturne on tojil, elegy on the other hand lands pretty much 100%. I assumed it's due to fire spell on a fire mob :3
My set is similar, apart from I'm using Twebuliij R15 with mephitis grip, nuna gorget (that torque doesn't exist in AH!!!), mediator ring instead of omega, Artsieq boots R15 and Bihu cannions +1.
Carbuncle.Killkenny
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 190
By Carbuncle.Killkenny 2014-05-07 06:52:44
I probably got elegy and nocturne resist rates mixed up for tojil, but I do both of them on pull with N/T up.
Omega ring should provide 6macc on any occasion where macc is a relevant concern.
Cerberus.Spirachub
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 516
By Cerberus.Spirachub 2014-05-07 07:04:28
Carbuncle.Killkenny said: »I probably got elegy and nocturne resist rates mixed up for tojil, but I do both of them on pull with N/T up.
Omega ring should provide 6macc on any occasion where macc is a relevant concern.
Oh I totally agree it's a better piece, I've just had other uses for my ichors XD
By Ophannus 2014-05-07 10:41:28
Would think 2chr=1 m.Acc just like how 2agi=1eva and 2vit=1def. Only str/dex are different but those were recent adjustments. So omega should be 5macc on par with maquette id think
Ragnarok.Sekundes
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4197
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-05-07 12:06:25
Would think 2chr=1 m.Acc just like how 2agi=1eva and 2vit=1def. Only str/dex are different but those were recent adjustments. So omega should be 5macc on par with maquette id think The macc you get from it depends on the dChr between you and the mob.
Here's the post from the last page:
So, recently people have been determining the stats of level 100+ monsters, and it seems that they get massive base stat boosts. 200 base stat, etc.
If we assume that CHR works like INT, and you get +1 MAcc per CHR until you have 10~15 more CHR than your target, then we can probably safely say that 1 CHR = 1 MAcc against high level foes. I personally optimize my MAcc sets for the most resistant cases, so it makes sense for me to assume that 1 CHR = 1 MAcc right now.
Obviously there is some uncertainty here but I'd go with this unless there's sufficient testing proving something else. That testing is unlikely to happen since the sample sizes needed to get accurate numbers here will be fairly large and to make any proof of the dStat scaling, you'd need a metric *** ton of tests at various levels of stats all with good sample sizes.
Though on that note, I have absolutely no idea how you would test a mob's chr...
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-05-07 12:20:18
Some Blu spells have their damage affected by dCHR. Also, Gauge returns a hidden parameter to the client that is based on the target and user's CHR. Not really practical, but easier than determining DEX and AGI and STR and stuff.
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Phoenix.Jiluun
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33
By Phoenix.Jiluun 2014-05-08 12:48:51
Ragnarok.Azryel
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 317
By Ragnarok.Azryel 2014-05-12 08:27:22
I have some questions about songs, more specifically what/when are the conditions to overwrite them, and if 3rd and 4th songs placeholder needed to be recast if a 3rd or 4th song is still active? The standard song set doesn’t really seem to be a problem aside from my occasionally seeing paeon wear off of someone in chat log (one of my placeholder songs), but that doesn’t seem to happen all that often, it’s just annoying when it does. If I have a 3rd song active that I’m overwriting, I don’t have to sing the placeholder song again, right? The stipulations of overwriting a song if I’m understanding it correctly is that there just has to be less time remaining on it than the original (2 minute) song duration? Also, are mages that get hit with SV NT DD songs pretty much out of luck? Like I was doing a PUG Tojil last night (the BRD is my mule, and I’ll join shouts here and there to get more practice playing the job as it’s still new to me) and after I buffed the DDs, I buffed the WHM and SCH with their respective songs, and 3-4 minutes later it seemed like the SCH was asking for marches, when I’d given him SV NT songs already… aside from him being in ranged during the DD songs, I don’t really understand what went wrong.
Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.
By Pantafernando 2014-05-12 09:17:36
1. Songs are overwrited acording to their duration. When you sing diferent songs, the lowest duration will be ovewrited.
2. Nope. The dummy songs are just a trick to unlock extra slot. Once you already have the slot unlocked, you can sing all your enhanced songs. The old songs will work as a dummy.
3. SE made so that you dont need to wait 2 mins to overwrite a song.
4. If the songs wore after 4 mins, maybe you ended singing march with dummy gear (zero songs duration) so the base 120 secs just went to 240 sec with nitro.
Cerberus.Spirachub
サーバ: Cerberus
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Posts: 516
By Cerberus.Spirachub 2014-05-12 09:26:06
The best way to see how you're going wrong is to load up timers, so you can clearly see what's the expected duration of each song you sing.
Mages that got hit with DD songs aren't necessarily out of luck. You just need to be more knowledgable about your durations. For example, With my set I know my JA DD songs last about 7min50, and ballads last about 7min15 or something, so i basically wouldn't sing ballads until I see the first 2 DD song are under 7min10. You might run into trouble if you don't have the nightingale/troubadour augment pieces if you do it this way of course.
There's of course other times when you can't do it (like you're responsible for pulling), at which point I'd just make sure the mage GTFO (this is probably also the easiest solution if there's a big enough space).
By Pantafernando 2014-05-12 09:37:56
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »The best way to see how you're going wrong is to load up timers, so you can clearly see what's the expected duration of each song you sing.
Mages that got hit with DD songs aren't necessarily out of luck. You just need to be more knowledgable about your durations. For example, With my set I know my JA DD songs last about 7min50, and ballads last about 7min15 or something, so i basically wouldn't sing ballads until I see the first 2 DD song are under 7min10. You might run into trouble if you don't have the nightingale/troubadour augment pieces if you do it this way of course.
There's of course other times when you can't do it (like you're responsible for pulling), at which point I'd just make sure the mage GTFO (this is probably also the easiest solution if there's a big enough space).
For a non gjallarhorn user, mages that need ballads must be out of range. The second ballad will always overwrite the first one (suposing at least march and minuet with +3 instrument).
Ragnarok.Azryel
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 317
By Ragnarok.Azryel 2014-05-12 09:56:03
1. Songs are overwrited acording to their duration. When you sing diferent songs, the lowest duration will be ovewrited.
2. Nope. The dummy songs are just a trick to unlock extra slot. Once you already have the slot unlocked, you can sing all your enhanced songs. The old songs will work as a dummy.
3. SE made so that you dont need to wait 2 mins to overwrite a song.
4. If the songs wore after 4 mins, maybe you ended singing march with dummy gear (zero songs duration) so the base 120 secs just went to 240 sec with nitro. Ok, well that's good to know about the placeholders- I had my suspicions but I've been casting the PH songs anyway, so that explains the occasional paeons that people have had.
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »The best way to see how you're going wrong is to load up timers, so you can clearly see what's the expected duration of each song you sing.
Mages that got hit with DD songs aren't necessarily out of luck. You just need to be more knowledgable about your durations. For example, With my set I know my JA DD songs last about 7min50, and ballads last about 7min15 or something, so i basically wouldn't sing ballads until I see the first 2 DD song are under 7min10. You might run into trouble if you don't have the nightingale/troubadour augment pieces if you do it this way of course.
There's of course other times when you can't do it (like you're responsible for pulling), at which point I'd just make sure the mage GTFO (this is probably also the easiest solution if there's a big enough space).
For a non gjallarhorn user, mages that need ballads must be out of range. The second ballad will always overwrite the first one (suposing at least march and minuet with +3 instrument). My mule does have a Gjallarhorn, but I noticed a new timer wasn't being created or overwritten last night specifically for the SCH's marches... it was just weird. I think I'll do my best to ask the mages to kindly keep back from the SV NT buffs before we enter, and see if I run into any other issues.
I thank you both for the quick responses :)
By Pantafernando 2014-05-12 10:37:15
1. Songs are overwrited acording to their duration. When you sing diferent songs, the lowest duration will be ovewrited.
2. Nope. The dummy songs are just a trick to unlock extra slot. Once you already have the slot unlocked, you can sing all your enhanced songs. The old songs will work as a dummy.
3. SE made so that you dont need to wait 2 mins to overwrite a song.
4. If the songs wore after 4 mins, maybe you ended singing march with dummy gear (zero songs duration) so the base 120 secs just went to 240 sec with nitro. Ok, well that's good to know about the placeholders- I had my suspicions but I've been casting the PH songs anyway, so that explains the occasional paeons that people have had.
Cerberus.Spirachub said: »The best way to see how you're going wrong is to load up timers, so you can clearly see what's the expected duration of each song you sing.
Mages that got hit with DD songs aren't necessarily out of luck. You just need to be more knowledgable about your durations. For example, With my set I know my JA DD songs last about 7min50, and ballads last about 7min15 or something, so i basically wouldn't sing ballads until I see the first 2 DD song are under 7min10. You might run into trouble if you don't have the nightingale/troubadour augment pieces if you do it this way of course.
There's of course other times when you can't do it (like you're responsible for pulling), at which point I'd just make sure the mage GTFO (this is probably also the easiest solution if there's a big enough space).
For a non gjallarhorn user, mages that need ballads must be out of range. The second ballad will always overwrite the first one (suposing at least march and minuet with +3 instrument). My mule does have a Gjallarhorn, but I noticed a new timer wasn't being created or overwritten last night specifically for the SCH's marches... it was just weird. I think I'll do my best to ask the mages to kindly keep back from the SV NT buffs before we enter, and see if I run into any other issues.
I thank you both for the quick responses :)
If you have ghorn and wasnt in dummy gear when singing march, the only reason that i can think your songs wore off before 4 mins is that troubadour wore off. Did you check if it was up when you ended your last songs? With troubador, march would replace anything they could have prior.
Ragnarok.Azryel
サーバ: Ragnarok
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Posts: 317
By Ragnarok.Azryel 2014-05-12 10:48:40
If you have ghorn and wasnt in dummy gear when singing march, the only reason that i can think your songs wore off before 4 mins is that troubadour wore off. Did you check if it was up when you ended your last songs? With troubador, march would replace anything they could have prior. I didn't look for it specifically because there was lots going on at the time, but I don't think it wore- I have the augmented pieces for NT and SV, so by time I got to buffing the SCH I should've still had plenty of time left on all the applicable JAs.
If nothing else, I'm just glad that I've confirmed that I don't need to be singing PH songs if I don't allow the previous songs to lapse... I think that might've been causing some of, if not all of, my problems.
By Ophannus 2014-05-12 19:24:28
Why do Bihu hands +1 beat Lurid for m.acc?
Bihu is +4CHR
Lurid is +10m.acc over Bihu.
Bihu has +10 Wind Skill, but it was stated that Wind/String may be 1/3 or lower in terms of m.acc for combined skill(which puts it at ~3.5ish)
Lurid should still be ahead slightly.
Siren.Bruno
サーバ: Siren
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Posts: 398
By Siren.Bruno 2014-05-13 13:49:33
My time of post was assuming 1 Wind Skill = 1 M.Acc, I was waiting to see if maybe someone could confirm the new information brought up, but I will rework another set to go off of, assuming 3 or 4 Wind Skill = 1 M.Acc
By Creecreelo 2014-05-14 17:41:12
Bard
Clarion Call Effect: Increases the effect duration of songs while under the effects of Clarion Call.
Increase effect duration by 2 seconds.
Minuet Effect: Increases the physical attack bonus granted by Minuet.
Increase physical attack by 1.
Awesome!! Approximately a billion times more useful than our previous merits!
So I put some my CP into Clarion Call effect up to level 3 and decided to do some testing outside Jeuno, mostly to see how it worked with Nitro and Buffs/debuffs.
Sadly, the CC effect of enhanced duration (for level 3 = +6 seconds) does not apply to Debuffs, at least for sure Lullaby. Foe Lullaby without any duration gear but with Nitro lasted exactly 1min, so no duration increase. :( With full duration gear, it lasted the predicted 4min50secs~.
As for buffs, the CC effect didn't work how I predicted with Nitro. Nitro didn't appear the double the CC effect (I predicted a +12 second increase for buffs). Instead, I casted a Minne without any duration but with Nitro, and it lasted exactly 4min6secs. So the extra seconds from the CC effect were added after Nitro's x2 effect.
The CC effect is still a nice buff, but also kinda disappointing. :(
By Creecreelo 2014-05-14 18:04:36
After the results of CC's Duration+ effect not working with Nitro's Duration x2, I got concerned about Minuet Effect+ not working with Marcato/SV, so I increased Minuet effect up to 4/10 and tested it out!!
Basically, I couldn't test with SV due to timers... but could test with Marcato and found out that Minuet Effect+ gets added to Minuet's base, like how Minuet+5 adds 17 attack to its base and the Merit Category 1 5/5 Minuet adds 5 Attack to the base. Thus, the CP Minuet category's effect gets enhanced by Marcato and most likely SV.
Example: Minuet 5 with Minuet+5 and Merit Minuet 5/5 gives Attack+84 total, with Marcato that goes up to 126.
With 4/10 Minuet Effect in addition to the above, the base attack is raised to Attack+88, and with Marcato it's Attack+132.
Neat stuff!! :D
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