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PLD vs NIN...Who is the best tank?
 Asura.Korpg
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2009-11-27 15:54:25
Phoenix.Boggs said: Asura.Korpg said: Care to explain? Sure, you're wrong. First of all, NIN/WAR is wrong. DRK sub, hi. Second of all, there is no NM in this game that a NIN/DRK is a BETTER tank on than a PLD. A ninja requires a certain level of support, where as a paladin does not.
I really hope you don't lead an endgame shell with that thinking and if you do I pray for them. Ok, NIN/DRK is nice, but if you don't have much refresh support, eventually that /DRK will become useless.
Like I said, it depends on the situation at hand. I personally love a PLD/NIN as a tank, but if they are having hate troubles, and can tank it with GOOD healers supporting them, then I would rather have a PLD/WAR on my side.
But then again, I leave the judgement of their subjob to the tanks themselves. I do have more faith in them deciding on how to tank than my general knowledge of a tank's job. I have seen some outstanding PLD/WARs tank various things, and some outstanding NIN/WARs also tank. So don't dismiss /WAR just because you dislike it.
サーバ: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2400
By Garuda.Hypnotizd 2009-11-27 15:55:55
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Asura.Korpg said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: What can only NIN tank that PLD can't in 2009? Yonin and Provoke at the same time.
I don't follow, PLD has a lot of hate tools too. I can't name off my head any mobs that NIN can tank where PLD can't. NIN/ and PLD/NIN blink just as well as each other, NIN just has faster DoT better for mobs that'll die fast (merits etc).
They both tank well, but there's no situation I could think of where NIN would destroy a PLD tanking something. Charybdis.
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サーバ: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2328
By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2009-11-27 15:58:13
Garuda.Hypnotizd said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Asura.Korpg said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: What can only NIN tank that PLD can't in 2009? Yonin and Provoke at the same time.
I don't follow, PLD has a lot of hate tools too. I can't name off my head any mobs that NIN can tank where PLD can't. NIN/ and PLD/NIN blink just as well as each other, NIN just has faster DoT better for mobs that'll die fast (merits etc).
They both tank well, but there's no situation I could think of where NIN would destroy a PLD tanking something. Charybdis.
Considering a PLD/RDM can solo it I doubt this, but I was waiting for that one.
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 Bismarck.Altar
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1676
By Bismarck.Altar 2009-11-27 15:58:59
Asura.Korpg said: Care to explain?
I woulda said it nicer >.< but basically, what Boggs said. Provoke is useless in almost any fight longer than a couple of minutes, so /war... meh not so much; Nin should generally be /drk.
Pld don't "blood tank" on /nin. Only blood tanking is when you're looking to get hit, so I guess /war or /rdm, in which case if youre skilled enough, in a longer fight /rdm usually > /war.
Basically, only reason i can think of off the top of my head where nin might be more efficient than a Pld would be if it was a mob that hit fast and hard, but with no acc and you'd want an evasion tank.
Phoenix.Boggs
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7
By Phoenix.Boggs 2009-11-27 16:05:38
Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Boggs said: Asura.Korpg said: Care to explain? Sure, you're wrong. First of all, NIN/WAR is wrong. DRK sub, hi. Second of all, there is no NM in this game that a NIN/DRK is a BETTER tank on than a PLD. A ninja requires a certain level of support, where as a paladin does not.
I really hope you don't lead an endgame shell with that thinking and if you do I pray for them. Ok, NIN/DRK is nice, but if you don't have much refresh support, eventually that /DRK will become useless.
Like I said, it depends on the situation at hand. I personally love a PLD/NIN as a tank, but if they are having hate troubles, and can tank it with GOOD healers supporting them, then I would rather have a PLD/WAR on my side.
But then again, I leave the judgement of their subjob to the tanks themselves. I do have more faith in them deciding on how to tank than my general knowledge of a tank's job. I have seen some outstanding PLD/WARs tank various things, and some outstanding NIN/WARs also tank. So don't dismiss /WAR just because you dislike it.
If you don't have the refresh support to have a NIN/DRK (which btw is a rdm and a bard giving ballad2) you need to get a different tank. And in that situation a paladin or RDM/NIN will always be better.
Also, if your PLD/NIN is having hate trouble you need a new paladin because they are doing it wrong.
I don't dismiss WAR sub because I dislike it, I dismiss it because it is an incorrect sub regardless of what you're doing. If for some ungodly reason you have a paladin in city dynamis, they should be sub BLM and spamming sleepga and curing themselves for hate on every mob. Or, if you're doing something kiting, you should be sub RDM or DRK.
WAR sub is incredibly wrong and the fact you're going to sit here and try to argue with me makes you even more wrong.
サーバ: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 605
By Fairy.Specopsz 2009-11-27 16:05:56
I'll say it again.
NIN=
Exspenive, need a skilled player
PLD=
Cheaper, takes time. Not hard to master
Take your risk who tanks for you.
Asura.Korpg
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2009-11-27 16:07:44
While I do agree with the point that /WAR would be useless on fights that last longer than a few minutes, what about those that don't? I assume we are talking about bigger stuff than Dynamis....
I said PLD/WAR or maybe PLD/NIN cause of Rampart. With that up, a PLD/NIN can get their shadows up when they need to if they need to in a hurry, and still have flash up for getting hate quickly.
This is based on observations though....
Edit: Wrong thing, I meant Repraisal. Or whatever that spell is that increases their shield skill.
Bahamut.Rumaha
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10000
By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-11-27 16:11:36
Asura.Korpg said: While I do agree with the point that /WAR would be useless on fights that last longer than a few minutes, what about those that don't? I assume we are talking about bigger stuff than Dynamis....
I said PLD/WAR or maybe PLD/NIN cause of Rampart. With that up, a PLD/NIN can get their shadows up when they need to if they need to in a hurry, and still have flash up for getting hate quickly.
This is based on observations though....
Sentinel is 6 times that the hate of Rampart, but Rampart hitting 6 people obviously brings it up like Warcry, but that doesn't always happen, Sentinel is really the cheat PLD move, Wiki states it gives about +100 Enmity to actions following it, and gives 90% dmg reduction down to 40% at the end.
Edit**
Yes Reprisal increases block chance.
Asura.Korpg
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2009-11-27 16:16:53
Yeah, sorry Rumaha, I made a mistake.
Phoenix.Boggs
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7
By Phoenix.Boggs 2009-11-27 16:39:09
In every situation, WAR sub is wrong. If you want a sub for a short fight, RDM. You want a sub for a drawn out fight, NIN. Kited fight, DRK.
WAR sub offers you nothing, compared to RDM, DRK, or NIN.
Edit: Also, reprisal has a one minute duration and with up to par gear haste and double march, you are without it for roughly one minute fifteen seconds.
Phoenix.Slane
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19
By Phoenix.Slane 2009-11-27 16:45:49
The simple fact that /WAR has provoke obviously outperforms the damage mitigation of shadows. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
Asura.Korpg
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2009-11-27 16:46:33
Phoenix.Boggs said: WAR sub offers you nothing, compared to RDM, DRK, or NIN. Thank you very much for your input, I appreciate the fact that you think Defender to be worthless, but there ya go.
Some fights, you can't kite, aren't short, and have trouble keeping shadows up. What can you do now?
Again, I appreciate your input. But I think I will still allow my tanks to come /WAR if they want to.
Pandemonium.Slaya
サーバ: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3
By Pandemonium.Slaya 2009-11-27 16:47:40
Asura.Korpg said: Defender
/thread
Phoenix.Boggs
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7
By Phoenix.Boggs 2009-11-27 16:52:40
Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Boggs said: WAR sub offers you nothing, compared to RDM, DRK, or NIN. Thank you very much for your imput, I appreciate the fact that you think Defender to be worthless, but there ya go.
Some fights, you can't kite, aren't short, and have trouble keeping shadows up. What can you do now?
Again, I appreciate your imput. But I think I will still allow my tanks to come /WAR if they want to.
First off, I'd like you to find me one NM in this game you can't do anything related to what I said.
Yes, you let your tanks sub the most worthless sub in the game and be less efficient just because you can't stand the fact I disagreed with you and not only that, proved you wrong in so many ways the best thing you can comeback with is "Defender".
Bahamut.Rumaha
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10000
By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-11-27 17:00:39
Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Boggs said: WAR sub offers you nothing, compared to RDM, DRK, or NIN. Thank you very much for your input, I appreciate the fact that you think Defender to be worthless, but there ya go.
Some fights, you can't kite, aren't short, and have trouble keeping shadows up. What can you do now?
Again, I appreciate your input. But I think I will still allow my tanks to come /WAR if they want to.
Phalanx SS Blink > Defender, as per defensive, /nin shadows also beats Defender, or at least it should w/ Haste gear Haste spell march march, you can get shadow recast down REALLY low, then macro OSHI gear w/ Dmg- and shield skill to get them back up, /rdm would also beat out /war hate wise in a long run, but not instantaneously because /rdm takes slightly longer to build hate w/o that 1800 spike we call Provoke, etc etc Long time since I been a pld.
And /blu > /war for defensive also.
Bismarck.Altar
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1676
By Bismarck.Altar 2009-11-27 17:02:05
@ korpg:
you generally go /rdm
Also I lol'd @ slane and slaya
But I do tend to take /war to cop dyna, so there you go. But I think in fights shorter than 30 seconds /war is more efficient than /rdm...
Phoenix.Avelle
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Phoenix.Avelle 2009-11-27 17:24:11
This thread makes me. 
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 324
By Bahamut.Dracondria 2009-11-27 17:26:25
It makes you Rumaha?
Phoenix.Avelle
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Phoenix.Avelle 2009-11-27 17:27:29
Pretty much.
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 28
By Phoenix.Tanthalass 2009-11-27 17:39:07
Asura.Korpg said: Phoenix.Boggs said: WAR sub offers you nothing, compared to RDM, DRK, or NIN. Thank you very much for your input, I appreciate the fact that you think Defender to be worthless, but there ya go.
Some fights, you can't kite, aren't short, and have trouble keeping shadows up. What can you do now?
Again, I appreciate your input. But I think I will still allow my tanks to come /WAR if they want to.
Defender is worthless because Defense is worthless. On anything of higher level then something like a merit mob, increasing your Defense does next to nothing. Go fight Fafnir PLD/WAR with a full defense build and see how much you get hit for before and after Defender, and see how much it matters. It won't, because you'll be dead in 3-4 hits hits even if you do pop Defender. Fafnir is relatively weak for an HNM, so try and take that into account.
If you're having trouble keeping shadows up, get mages who learn to cast Slow and Haste (or Elegy and March if you're a BRD).
If you think any tank should be /WAR for anything, you're a gigantic idiot. Kindly go shoot yourself.
Phoenix.Avelle
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Phoenix.Avelle 2009-11-27 17:45:20
I hear full koenig + earth staff vitality builds on pld/war have never been tried.
 Leviathan.Solare
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 107
By Leviathan.Solare 2009-11-27 18:29:01
I wont PT without a NIN. PLD sucks, /NIN or whatever. I dont even know why people are still playing PLD, its so out of date.
Phoenix.Avelle
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Phoenix.Avelle 2009-11-27 18:32:03
Leviathan.Solare said: I wont PT without a NIN. PLD sucks, /NIN or whatever. I dont even know why people are still playing PLD, its so out of date.
Are you talking about meriting and other exp parties? Because if you're talking endgame, your post reeks of inexperience.
Leviathan.Solare
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 107
By Leviathan.Solare 2009-11-27 18:32:53
Phoenix.Avelle said: Leviathan.Solare said: I wont PT without a NIN. PLD sucks, /NIN or whatever. I dont even know why people are still playing PLD, its so out of date.
Are you talking about meriting and other exp parties? Because if you're talking endgame, your post reeks of inexperience.
I'm talking everything, PLD is useless.
Leviathan.Solare
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 107
By Leviathan.Solare 2009-11-27 18:36:13
Phoenix.Avelle said: Leviathan.Solare said: I wont PT without a NIN. PLD sucks, /NIN or whatever. I dont even know why people are still playing PLD, its so out of date.
Are you talking about meriting and other exp parties? Because if you're talking endgame, your post reeks of inexperience.
Also, I'm only trolling :P I love PLD, lol. thats why I'm lvling it. I just thought Id give you guys something to *** about :P
Phoenix.Avelle
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Phoenix.Avelle 2009-11-27 18:57:11
Ah, carry on then good sir.
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-11-27 19:42:56
Avellllllle... someone who appreciates the wonder of Mithra. Hi again :)
Byakko can be lowmanned fairly effectively with NIN/DRK tanks with Mambos since he's not actually that accurate. That said, RDM or PLD can do it too but this is somewhere NIN is pretty good. Other than that, muh. I have nothing against a NIN tanking but objectively speaking, it is a RDM without the steel wall and a PLD without the damage/short-term hate tools.
Phoenix.Avelle
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Phoenix.Avelle 2009-11-27 20:06:47
Hi Raen. cats > all Especially cat paladins.
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-11-27 20:21:54
This is true, though I'm rather fond of RDM or THF cats too. COR, BLU and DRG are pretty awesome as well.
I never even bought an Ocean Sash for my PLD because I was always playing .dat swapped as Mithra :( once you play Mithra you can never return to another race again ... not that this is a problem.
 Remora.Laphine
サーバ: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 356
By Remora.Laphine 2009-11-27 20:31:17
hmm, how is it nin/drk has no short-term hate tools? Souleater, Last Resort?
For one, nin/drk can cap hate way faster than pld/nin because its also cheaper. It was like that before the patch and after the patch the difference increased even more. CEwise pld has flash and cures and nin has sleep and stun. Sleep costing less mp than a cure2 for almost the same hate of cure4. Only way a pld would keep up with that is by means of cure cheat, and he will still clear his mp poll sooner. Well good thing pld has decent ws to get hate too.
IMO nin tank is much more reliable. The nin can use souleater and last resort when hate gets messy (more VE than sentinel). Or if he dies, just 2h away to clear weakness, and its ready to die again! lol
After reading another forum, I realized alot of ppl was debating the big different between pld and nin for tank. So, I open this forum to get ppl opinion about who is the best tank for FFXI.
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